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Thanks for the responses regarding Roman religious persecution.
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Dec 22, 2018 20:20
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Xander77 posted:I hope I haven't asked about this before (or if I did, I didn't have pictures at hand) It's sort of hard to get a sense of the layout from the pictures, but squinting at the overhead view in google maps it looks like about the right dimensions to be a small Roman castellum, you can compare with the models of Milecastles along Hadrian's wall. One similarity I can see is how your ruins have the same exterior strait staircase in corner as the milecastles. It's a little far west to have been part of the limes Arabicus and I don't know if there were any major roads along the west coast of the dead sea, but it seems plausible it was a little outpost for cavalry patrols or a some such thing. Alternatively it was built by one of the million other empires that marched through the region. Unrelated, here's a nice christmas story I found relevant to Roman suppression of pagan religion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCX5Vn1NKGg
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Dec 22, 2018 20:21
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Let's say a "Byzantine" writer was writing about the old pagan pantheon. Would he use the Greek names or the Roman ones?
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Dec 23, 2018 04:37
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Presumably the name of the god in question. The Greek and Roman gods were different. E: It's possible they wouldn't have had a sophisticated enough understanding to be aware of that, though. They weren't big on the pre-Christian times; there are instances of people being prosecuted for heresy for being too interested in studying classical material. Though some of those are also probably politically motivated. Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 04:55 on Dec 23, 2018 |
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Dec 23, 2018 04:49
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I mean, sort of? But they weren't unrelated pantheons either, and at least Zeus and Jupiter are etymologically linked and likely derived from the same indoeuropean god (along with Deus and Tues and others, I guess depending who you ask). But ancient choices for syncretism weren't always so lucky or motivated by actual similarities (looking at you, Dionysus-Osiris).
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Dec 23, 2018 10:53
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Scarodactyl posted:I mean, sort of? But they weren't unrelated pantheons either, and at least Zeus and Jupiter are etymologically linked and likely derived from the same indoeuropean god (along with Deus and Tues and others, I guess depending who you ask). But ancient choices for syncretism weren't always so lucky or motivated by actual similarities (looking at you, Dionysus-Osiris). Only Zeus and Jupiter are etymologically related from what I've read, with Hestia and Vesta somehow not being related even though it looks a lot that way. Most of the Greek gods' names appear to have come from some unknown language or languages.
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Dec 23, 2018 13:39
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For those that work in the the history field professionally, how irritated do you get get someone just says that the Romans just “stole” all of their gods from the Greeks?
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Dec 23, 2018 14:43
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Grand Fromage posted:Presumably the name of the god in question. The Greek and Roman gods were different. Otoh you've got authors like Herodotus who default to classifying all foreign god's as just the local version of whoever. When did that fall out of vogue?
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Dec 23, 2018 16:46
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Which Roman god was the jewish god?
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Dec 23, 2018 16:53
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Hogge Wild posted:Which Roman god was the jewish god? Bacchus
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Dec 23, 2018 16:56
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the JJ posted:Otoh you've got authors like Herodotus who default to classifying all foreign god's as just the local version of whoever. When did that fall out of vogue? I don't think it fell out of vogue until relatively modern times. The point stands that ancient syncretism can be misleading; the Roman view of Mars was much more positive than the Roman view of Ares, and while sometimes there's a genuine relationship (e.g., Zeus/Jupiter and Hermes/Thoth), in other cases the ancients were just finding superficial parallels between gods whose cults originated independently.
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Dec 23, 2018 16:56
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Hogge Wild posted:Which Roman god was the jewish god? Jupiter Sabazius.
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Dec 23, 2018 16:57
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Hogge Wild posted:Which Roman god was the jewish god? generally greeks and romans identified him as dionysus, jupiter or mars is probably a closer match to yahweh's role in the pre-monotheism canaanite/israelite pantheon though
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Dec 23, 2018 17:17
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Hogge Wild posted:Which Roman god was the jewish god? Khorne
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Dec 23, 2018 17:21
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dionysuis/shiva is my favorite syncretism
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Dec 23, 2018 17:24
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Jazerus posted:generally greeks and romans identified him as dionysus, jupiter or mars is probably a closer match to yahweh's role in the pre-monotheism canaanite/israelite pantheon though Yeah he's very much about the thunder and the storm, in comparison to other regional deities of the area.
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Dec 23, 2018 17:33
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Maybe the Yahweh/Dionysus identification could have something to do with Orphism where Dionysus is much more important? They had their own mythology which was markedly different from what we find in Hesiod and Homer.
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Dec 23, 2018 17:46
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Hogge Wild posted:Which Roman god was the jewish god? Jesus Christ, of whom our emperor is but the vicar on earth
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Dec 23, 2018 17:53
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Jazerus posted:generally greeks and romans identified him as dionysus, jupiter or mars is probably a closer match to yahweh's role in the pre-monotheism canaanite/israelite pantheon though What was that pantheon like? Always wondered how the religion developed from polytheism to monotheism without backsliding like all the other cases I can think of (what Akenhaten did, etc...).
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Dec 23, 2018 18:01
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:What was that pantheon like? Always wondered how the religion developed from polytheism to monotheism without backsliding like all the other cases I can think of (what Akenhaten did, etc...). Akhenaten is a misleading example, because his brand of monotheism was probably really just a expression of his megalomania (Aten as sole god, Akhenaten as sole mediator between humanity and Aten). In general, he seems to have been an awful person who was given the damnatio memoriae treatment for a reason. Recent archaeology has revealed that he worked children to death to build his city, and it's likely (but subject to debate) that he sexually abused his daughters.
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Dec 23, 2018 18:09
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:For those that work in the the history field professionally, how irritated do you get get someone just says that the Romans just “stole” all of their gods from the Greeks? It's quite annoying, but it's such a persistent cultural meme it's not going anywhere. I try to contain the irritation and use it as an opportunity to educate instead. It is true that the named Greek and Roman gods almost certainly have a common, older origin. And most people have no idea the Romans had their own completely native religion that has nothing to do with Mars and Venus and whatnot, so it's cool to talk about that too. the JJ posted:Otoh you've got authors like Herodotus who default to classifying all foreign god's as just the local version of whoever. When did that fall out of vogue? It never did. The religion was always syncretic but it's complicated. We also don't understand what different aspects of a god means, and given how religions work it's likely there wasn't any consistent logical meaning anyway. There are views that, say, Jupiter was seen as a single god and other syncretic relations to him, like Zeus, were all considered to be the same single deity going by different names. There is also evidence that the different aspects of Jupiter, like Jupiter Optimus Maximus, Jupiter Feretrius, Jupiter Pluvius, etc were seen as actually different deities. Again, given how messy and inconsistent religion is, I'm guessing both ends of the spectrum and everything in between were all true simultaneously.
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Dec 23, 2018 18:10
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:What was that pantheon like? Always wondered how the religion developed from polytheism to monotheism without backsliding like all the other cases I can think of (what Akenhaten did, etc...). I'm no expert but as I understand it, the Akhenaten thing was basically pharaoh attempting to consolidate power in a new unified religion and it died out once a new pharaoh came in. With Yahweh it seems to have been more one faction of a priesthood pushing out the others, so there was more long term power base. Id love to read a book on the Canaanite Pantheon though, it's really hard to find good info there.
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Dec 23, 2018 18:11
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:What was that pantheon like? Always wondered how the religion developed from polytheism to monotheism without backsliding like all the other cases I can think of (what Akenhaten did, etc...). essentially there was a very large initial pantheon with similar sorts of roles as any polytheistic mediterranean pantheon, with El at its head as a sort of proto-God, Baal as a sort of Thor-like figure, and Yahweh as the creator and general of the angels, among many others. over centuries, individual cities and states claimed one or the other of these gods as their patrons, and then eventually the pantheon splintered entirely into a set of related monotheistic religions, all of which now attributed the deeds of the whole pantheon to their specific patron and his servants. judaism is the only survivor of these religions as far as i know, but baal worship was a going concern at least until the destruction of carthage. baal is the usual suspect for the "false god" that the naughty israelites ended up worshipping when they turn away from God in the bible, too
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Dec 23, 2018 18:16
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Jazerus posted:essentially there was a very large initial pantheon with similar sorts of roles as any polytheistic mediterranean pantheon, with El at its head as a sort of proto-God, Baal as a sort of Thor-like figure, and Yahweh as the creator and general of the angels, among many others. over centuries, individual cities and states claimed one or the other of these gods as their patrons, and then eventually the pantheon splintered entirely into a set of related monotheistic religions, all of which now attributed the deeds of the whole pantheon to their specific patron and his servants. judaism is the only survivor of these religions as far as i know, but baal worship was a going concern at least until the destruction of carthage. Source for this? It seems necessarily somewhat speculative.
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Dec 23, 2018 18:27
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Silver2195 posted:Source for this? It seems necessarily somewhat speculative. Not a lot written down, so there is much speculation. Wiki covers it pretty well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh
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Dec 23, 2018 19:25
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You also gotta remember that "Ba'al" wasn't usually a seperate God, it means Lord as in lord of the manor or whatever. And you would say, be an ancient semitic tribe and right things down like "those assholes over there and their lord god suck, ours is the best". But equally you call any of your own God or gods as ba'al in other contexts, just like in modern English we refer to many gods as like the God of the people over there. There's also like patterns in the Torah where in later written parts you use Ba'al for Yahweh less often than using it somewhat derisively about the latest skank god Israel's falsely worshipping again because of those darn sons of Aram or whatever. Ultimately it's unlikely that any of the gods of any of these peoples was just referred to as "Ba'al".
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Dec 23, 2018 19:41
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Grand Fromage posted:Presumably the name of the god in question. The Greek and Roman gods were different. Famously, Anaxagorus got exiled from Athens due to his heretical beliefs regarding astronomy.
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Dec 23, 2018 20:06
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What’s up with the god of partying getting equated to dour dudes like Osiris and Yahweh?
Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Dec 24, 2018 |
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Dec 24, 2018 15:10
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I really don't see the connection between Osiris and Dionysius myself. I mean, ok, He and Isis invented bread and beer, and I see some people describing Dionysius as a dying-and-rebirth God, but Osiris kind of...stays dead. Oh sure, he's sort of alive - Isis fills Him with the breath of Life when She resurrects Him - but he's not truly alive, which is why he stays and becomes Lord of the Duat. Because He's incomplete He can't rule Egypt which leads to the Contendings of Horus and Set, which is arguably the best set of stories in any mythology, hands-down. I wouldn't say that Osiris is dour but I would say that He has an image of respectability to uphold and partying runs contrary to that.
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Dec 24, 2018 16:58
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I've heard of Dionysus being related to Christianity before, between the being born of a mortal, death and coming back to life, and drinking wine as a sacrament. Even the whole deal of in the later days of the empire being one of the prominent cults that people turned to as the older aspects of their religion lost their luster and people looked for something new. Never heard of any other parallels though.
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Dec 24, 2018 17:05
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:What’s up with the god of partying getting equated to dour dudes like Osiris and Yahweh?
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Dec 24, 2018 17:26
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Mad Hamish posted:I really don't see the connection between Osiris and Dionysius myself. I mean, ok, He and Isis invented bread and beer, and I see some people describing Dionysius as a dying-and-rebirth God, but Osiris kind of...stays dead. Oh sure, he's sort of alive - Isis fills Him with the breath of Life when She resurrects Him - but he's not truly alive, which is why he stays and becomes Lord of the Duat. Because He's incomplete He can't rule Egypt which leads to the Contendings of Horus and Set, which is arguably the best set of stories in any mythology, hands-down. I can't figure out an appropriate "that Osiris is just too wrapped up in himself" joke so just imagine I pulled it off.
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Dec 25, 2018 07:37
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Grand Fromage posted:It's quite annoying, but it's such a persistent cultural meme it's not going anywhere. I try to contain the irritation and use it as an opportunity to educate instead. It is true that the named Greek and Roman gods almost certainly have a common, older origin. And most people have no idea the Romans had their own completely native religion that has nothing to do with Mars and Venus and whatnot, so it's cool to talk about that too. What even is 'native' in this context? Everywhere the Indo-Europeans went they carried a common set of deities, and then combined them with and incorporated deities from their neighbors. So are the non-IE influences the 'native' part? Because it's kind of weird to think of borrowings from those other cultures as being a native Roman thing.
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Dec 25, 2018 08:05
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Family Values posted:What even is 'native' in this context? Everywhere the Indo-Europeans went they carried a common set of deities, and then combined them with and incorporated deities from their neighbors. So are the non-IE influences the 'native' part? Because it's kind of weird to think of borrowings from those other cultures as being a native Roman thing. The native Roman religion is of spirits and gods of places. No anthropomorphic deities, no named deities, no myths. Everything has a spirit bound to its place and the interaction of these spirits with each other and with humans creates various effects. The most visible parts of this are the genius, something of a guardian spirit unique to each person, and the lares, household gods. You also find magical installations in Roman cities to keep peace with the spirits; this is what all those dicks carved into intersections are in Pompeii, for example. They keep the spirits of the two crossing roads from coming into conflict. The native religion seems to predate the Etruscan influences, which is where named gods that we're more familiar with start coming into play. And Roman temples are Etruscan in origin; the native Roman religion doesn't have temples or organized worship.
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Dec 25, 2018 08:15
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Poor Roman peace-dicks. They'd be horrified to know it's basically a battle standard of american soldiers these days.
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Dec 25, 2018 08:19
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I like the fact that some priest, when very concerned about two road spirits fighting, came to the conclusion that a dick ought to mollify them
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Dec 25, 2018 08:20
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Dicks create life. They're a powerful magical symbol for the Romans and a lot of other cultures. Sure, with your modern science you might be like "well, actually, the woman" but  every good Roman knows the babies are stored in the balls, the woman's just an incubator.
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Dec 25, 2018 08:22
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I prefer the idea that priests believed roads were horny (it's less finding it funny that penises were a religious symbol--that's not surprising. But using them to pacify road spirits feels incongruous)
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Dec 25, 2018 08:24
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Erect dicks specifically warded off evil but I can't remember why.
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Dec 25, 2018 08:25
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"I swear babe it's okay to bone in this haunted place my dick can ward off evil spirits" e: alternatively, "There's evil spirits here but we need my dick to be hard to ward them off. You gotta help me out here"
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Dec 25, 2018 08:26
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