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So, I have a model that I use to think about RPG design. Like all RPG models, it is woefully incomplete and probably completely wrong, still, I find some use to it. This model suggest that RPGs fall onto a spectrum ranging from Toolkit on one end, Sandbox in the middle, and Scenario at the other end. It is important that it is a spectrum because rarely does a given game fall absolutely into one of the these three categories. Toolkit games are your generic RPGs, your Fates and your GURPS and so on. They provide the base rules and essentially are frameworks for a group to construct a more focused game within. Indeed, trying to play them without putting in any special effort will likely lead to very unenjoyable experiences. While Toolkit games often claim to be skinnable for any sort of game, the truth is that they have underlying assumptions about the kinds of narratives made built into the structure of the rules. Fate, for instance, suggests games of high action and drama with a cinematic air, and would do poorly for a more grounded, literary style of play. Sandbox games are games that are more explicit about the narrative that the game is trying to create. Dungeons and Dragons is trying to make a dungeon crawler, Apocalypse World is trying to make a Mad Max HBO prestige drama, and so on. Since Sandboxes are in the middle, they tend to have the most flexibility. Games like Warhammer Fantasy or Seven Seas provide lots of NPCs, lots of setting details, lots of cultures for PCs to emerge from, and lots of conflicts for them to take part in. which puts them more on the Scenario side. Monsterhearts expects the table to create these NPCs and conflicts within the guidelines of the genre and narrative, thus putting it more on the Toolkit side. Scenario games are games that have a degree of narrative structure to them. Full scenario games are just adventures for other systems, or games with very tight campaign frameworks. Lady Blackbird is a Scenario game that leans more towards the Sandbox side, in that it tells you what the conflict is about and who it is between and what the characters want to achieve, but the method for achieving those goals is determined at the table. Scenario games get a bit of a bad rap and I don't know a ton of them in the indie, but I think there's more value to them these days for groups whose players work 40+ hours a week and don't have the mental energy to come up with a world and a campaign framework on their own and wouldn't mind cracking open something that is completely ready to go right out of the box. Most successful games have tended towards the Sandbox area, though there are some big names in the Toolkit area as well, which means that there is a lot more culture of design around Sandbox games which means that Sandbox games do tend to be better written, which might contribute to why players find them more engaging. In addition, a fully Toolkit game is really not meant to be played with just the rules that they provide (in the core book at least), tables are encouraged to create their own systems to highlight the narrative conventions that they're aiming for, or to pick up a modular sourcebook that adds those rules in. Meanwhile, most Scenario games are Paizo's Adventure Paths which are a mixed bag at best and their strong association with Dungeons and Dragons adventures, and their bad reputation in general, might keep a lot of designers away from Scenario games, despite Lady Blackbird being so well regarded.
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Dec 24, 2018 00:10
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| # ? May 23, 2024 17:17 |
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i ran two campaigns with strike back to back that were fun and went really well. i look forward to using it again the next time i want a tactical combat game
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Dec 24, 2018 00:15
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gradenko_2000 posted:yea I was gonna say "doesn't this also apply to GURPS?"
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Dec 24, 2018 00:21
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Elephant Parade posted:I mean, yeah, it does. But Strike! is the game being discussed--and, as you said, most other setting-agnostic games do have official settings available for purchase. It's also unique in that the classes it presents do have flavour, but that flavour is generic and not consistent between classes--compare to the truly flavorless system of FATE or the clearly categorized traits of GURPS. Yea this is the key bit to me. FATE has zero flavor in it at all until you buy a setting book, and GURPS so rigidly and carefully divides things the 'this really only works in THIS kinda game' stuff is clear and isolated from others. Strike tries to be FATE style flavorless but also weirdly presents these very specific classes.
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Dec 24, 2018 00:27
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sexpig by night posted:Yea this is the key bit to me. FATE has zero flavor in it at all until you buy a setting book, and GURPS so rigidly and carefully divides things the 'this really only works in THIS kinda game' stuff is clear and isolated from others. Strike tries to be FATE style flavorless but also weirdly presents these very specific classes. But Fate does have a bit of flavor to it, thanks to the way that the mechanics mean that scenes will be organized and play out. It's not wholly generic, because I think it's impossible for anything to be. It's more of a Toolkit than a Sandbox, but its mechanics still reinforce notions of how the game will play. Strike just leans a bit more in the Sandbox direction. (I won't deny that some playsets for Strike sound like they'd be a good idea.)
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Dec 24, 2018 00:34
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Meinberg posted:But Fate does have a bit of flavor to it, thanks to the way that the mechanics mean that scenes will be organized and play out. It's not wholly generic, because I think it's impossible for anything to be. It's more of a Toolkit than a Sandbox, but its mechanics still reinforce notions of how the game will play. Strike just leans a bit more in the Sandbox direction. (I won't deny that some playsets for Strike sound like they'd be a good idea.) FATE has as little flavor as an RPG can have that isn't just a one page google doc for how to do roll-offs or something
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Dec 24, 2018 00:42
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gradenko_2000 posted:yea I was gonna say "doesn't this also apply to GURPS?" GURPS does have Infinite Worlds for when you want a robot centaur, an elf sharpshooter, an autistic rat-woman engineer, a vampire, a wizard, a lightsaber-wielding nobleman, and a knife-throwing, acrobatic thief to go on adventures together.
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Dec 24, 2018 01:18
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sexpig by night posted:Strike tries to be FATE style flavorless but also weirdly presents these very specific classes. I don't agree that Strike tries to present classes with a specific flavour, because it's not actually interested in presenting classes with any kind of narrative theme. Strike classes are just a bundle of mechanics organised more or less entirely by mechanical theme, with their names and power names picked for consistency internal to that class only, with zero regard for any kind of broader narrative-thematic consistency between classes. This is why it feels like it has this weird mish-mash of classes from different genres. Really, Strike just needs to systematically present a fantasy, sci-fi and modern "skin" for each of its classes, so players have pre-set narrative-thematic groupings to use if they want. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 01:42 on Dec 24, 2018 |
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Dec 24, 2018 01:39
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I'm a big fan of "genre systems" that may or may not have a built-in setting, but do a given genre really well, or have a particular focus in terms of gameplay. I feel like that's a terrific middle ground to hit right, but it doesn't happen too often. Then again, really great systems don't happen too often, period. Generic systems strike me as much as a marketing conceit as a systemic one, they allow publishers to open people up to concepts they wouldn't normally otherwise consider if they had to learn a new game. That's not what Strike is aiming for, I just think it's aiming more towards being a 4e stripped of all but mechanics, but that does just leave all the bones showing.
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Dec 24, 2018 03:05
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Call me crazy but I bet that, if you designed a game around a particular setting, it'd come off as more clear even if you didn't publish or mention anything about that setting. I think it's important as part of the design phase even if it doesn't make it into the book. Absolutely. The setting creates assumptions about what kind of things your rules are simulating, and what the risk/reward balances should be. Although it's entirely.possible to mess that up within an established system if you blindly re-use mechanics.
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Dec 24, 2018 03:08
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Whatever I feel about Savage Worlds rules good or bad, and it is a mixture of both, I do like the affordable core generic system for  with a wide variety of setting books available as well. It is a pretty good example of what could work in a single volume if you wanted it to, one half of the book the rules, the other half the setting and setting specific rules.
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Dec 24, 2018 03:24
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Alien Rope Burn posted:I'm a big fan of "genre systems" that may or may not have a built-in setting, but do a given genre really well, or have a particular focus in terms of gameplay. I feel like that's a terrific middle ground to hit right, but it doesn't happen too often. Then again, really great systems don't happen too often, period. As an example, the current F&F of Double Cross is a great one. While, sure, it can be about fighting genetic horrors in Japan mostly what it's built to deal with is superpowers and the price of said powers. It even has a super-speed set that doesn't break everything.
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Dec 24, 2018 03:32
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Lemon-Lime posted:I don't agree that Strike tries to present classes with a specific flavour, because it's not actually interested in presenting classes with any kind of narrative theme. I think people are seeing the names and the art and creating a little theme in their heads, yeah. Like this game is about angry child necromancers and robot duelists. It'd maybe help if the classes were just titled like episodes of friends, so everyone saw the mechanical wheels, all like "The One that Interacts with Downed Enemies" and "The Ranged One."
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Dec 24, 2018 04:52
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Just label everything like Friends or Always Sunny episodes.
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Dec 24, 2018 05:09
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The Gang Finally Remember Miss Tokens Exist
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Dec 24, 2018 05:22
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Unbound is probably the best presented generic system I've read. The classes are given suitable vague names (Brawler, Defender etc) but then each comes with a huge array of names/concepts for how you can skin them. It helps that the concepts are goofy as hell. "skull covered baroque space fascists" "robot programmed for friendship" "a bear" etc etc
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Dec 24, 2018 12:20
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theironjef posted:I think people are seeing the names and the art and creating a little theme in their heads, yeah. Like this game is about angry child necromancers and robot duelists. It'd maybe help if the classes were just titled like episodes of friends, so everyone saw the mechanical wheels, all like "The One that Interacts with Downed Enemies" and "The Ranged One." I hate to say it but the Archer is one of the worst examples. You’ve got this picture of a dude with a mini gun and then a bunch of abilities that refer specifically to arrows. And moreover, to running out of trick arrows and needing to make more which is kind of difficult to reskin (it’s easy to say power packs or something but then why can you still fire unlimited regular shots? And making a power pack seems to be much riskier and need more specialised equipment or even a factory than making an arrow etc..)
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Dec 24, 2018 16:42
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If you're wondering how moves recharge and other science facts/ la la la / say to yourself it's just a game I should really just relax.
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Dec 24, 2018 17:42
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hyphz posted:I hate to say it but the Archer is one of the worst examples. You’ve got this picture of a dude with a mini gun and then a bunch of abilities that refer specifically to arrows. And moreover, to running out of trick arrows and needing to make more which is kind of difficult to reskin (it’s easy to say power packs or something but then why can you still fire unlimited regular shots? And making a power pack seems to be much riskier and need more specialised equipment or even a factory than making an arrow etc..) this issue never came up during my 2 campaigns. the archer is quite strong and flavoring it as sci-fi was pretty easy
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Dec 24, 2018 17:56
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Impermanent posted:If you're wondering how moves recharge and other science facts/ la la la / say to yourself it's just a game I should really just relax. Well sure except, in this case it’s critical to how strong the trick arrow moves are. There’s no listed recharge duration except “when you can get more arrows, and the GM should make it difficult”. The necromancer has a similar thing, their strength varies based on how often you meet undead-or-equivalent.
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Dec 24, 2018 18:22
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hyphz posted:I hate to say it but the Archer is one of the worst examples. You’ve got this picture of a dude with a mini gun and then a bunch of abilities that refer specifically to arrows. And moreover, to running out of trick arrows and needing to make more which is kind of difficult to reskin (it’s easy to say power packs or something but then why can you still fire unlimited regular shots? And making a power pack seems to be much riskier and need more specialised equipment or even a factory than making an arrow etc..) But you understand that the picture is just some picture of a ranged weapon guy, right? Like the whole point of the picture is "ranged." Every other element is wholly extraneous. You're not supposed to make that guy.
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Dec 24, 2018 18:36
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hyphz posted:Well sure except, in this case it’s critical to how strong the trick arrow moves are. There’s no listed recharge duration except “when you can get more arrows, and the GM should make it difficult”. Just tippex over "trick arrows" and write in "specialty ammunition."
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Dec 24, 2018 19:10
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hyphz posted:I hate to say it but the Archer is one of the worst examples. You’ve got this picture of a dude with a mini gun and then a bunch of abilities that refer specifically to arrows. And moreover, to running out of trick arrows and needing to make more which is kind of difficult to reskin (it’s easy to say power packs or something but then why can you still fire unlimited regular shots? And making a power pack seems to be much riskier and need more specialised equipment or even a factory than making an arrow etc..) Gonna cut to the quick of the issue: refluffing never works if you look at reasons for it to not work. So think of it less as 'making a power pack seems to be much riskier and need more specialised equipment or even a factory than making an arrow' because what you're doing is starting to say no. That's not how refluffing works! It's based entirely on saying yes. So, in this particular case, power packs definitely aren't a problem because it doesn't work if they are so the thing to do is imagine a reason why they do function as needed and fit it into the setting. It's fun as hell to think of reasons why something should work when it's weird, it's honestly sort of boring to use 'realism' as a reason for not being able to use some kind of future weapon that uses power packs.
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Dec 24, 2018 19:13
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Guy: Hey my dragon is going to be an archer class, the ranged trick arrows are different breath weapons he has. Me, cool: sweet, that's fun. Consider taking blaster if you want there to be aoe on some of them. You, hyperventilating: HOW would a DRAGON even RUN OUT of BREATH?!?! and WHY doesn't your character FLY AROUND?! the OTHER DRAGON IS A MARTIAL ARTIST Arhegehege
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Dec 24, 2018 19:32
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Impermanent posted:You, hyperventilating: HOW would a DRAGON even RUN OUT of BREATH?!?! and WHY doesn't your character FLY AROUND?! the OTHER DRAGON IS A MARTIAL ARTIST Arhegehege It's not that a dragon couldn't run out of breath; it's that the difficulty and process for making arrows is pulled into the game's mechanics by the fact it's the only guide to recharging that ability, and that difficulty and process is going to change significantly with reskinning. Ok, maybe a dragon can run out of types of breath and have to recharge by eating the right minerals Flight of Dragons style, but then that changes how that recharging is going to happen in different environments and natural contexts - you can make an arrow from stuff you might find in a castle, you aren't likely to just suddenly find a spire of rock to eat. Speciality ammunition for a fancy railgun? Ok, but tying a breakable flask of oil to the end of a regular arrow is something an individual could do much more easily than dismantling an industrially-made sealed ammo cartridge and loading future-napalm into it, and even if you adlib that because it's the kind of thing gun nut characters do in plenty of sci-fi, then how many places are going to sell small sachets of future-napalm and are you going to find them lying around in the enemy base?
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Dec 24, 2018 20:03
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hyphz posted:then how many places are going to sell small sachets of future-napalm and are you going to find them lying around in the enemy base? a lot of places will sell them and you will find them lying around wow, that was hard
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Dec 24, 2018 20:09
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My nanomachines allow me to recreate my ammo roughly every 2 to 4 combats
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Dec 24, 2018 20:10
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Or you could go all 40k lasgun style, you need to recharge the power pack in an open fire, and thanks to your gun-alchemy knowledge you know of you add a splash of this and a dash of that your power pack will shoot fire/ acid / lightning.
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Dec 24, 2018 20:18
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The VPS-30 "Varia" Railgun has standardized variable ammo. Every individual shell is built to be easily dismantled and filled with any appropriate contents. Because this specialty ammo is relatively expensive and requires different muzzle velocity to be effective, most people stick to the solid core rounds with the highest overall projectile speeds. But a few enterprising soldiers like to keep the more specialized payloads on their persons so they can quickly swap to incendiary or acid bee payloads as needed.
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Dec 24, 2018 20:19
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PoptartsNinja posted:The VPS-30 "Varia" Railgun has standardized variable ammo. Every individual shell is built to be easily dismantled and filled with any appropriate contents. Because this specialty ammo is relatively expensive and requires different muzzle velocity to be effective, most people stick to the solid core rounds with the highest overall projectile speeds. But a few enterprising soldiers like to keep the more specialized payloads on their persons so they can quickly swap to incendiary or acid bee payloads as needed. That's fine, but it's changing the recharge rule. The recharge rule for Trick Arrow says explicitly that you run out of the specialised ammo. So sure, you can keep those ammo on you, but when you run out, how do you get more while still behind enemy lines? I mean, ok, maybe the enemy use them too - although that's going to be difficult because I don't know how balanced Strike is if you use the PC class abilities on enemies, and if they don't, you get the thing where the enemy is storing a bunch of loot that's useful to you and not to them which is a fairly classic gaming cringe - but otherwise it's tricky to fit. Same with "recharge with nanomachines every 2-4 combats", you can rule that way if you like, but it doesn't seem to be in the spirit of the text (which explicitly says "this is a powerful ability so the GM is encouraged to be harsh with letting you recover your trick arrows")
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Dec 24, 2018 20:25
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the enemy uses the same ammo but you have a special experimental gun
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Dec 24, 2018 20:31
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hyphz posted:That's fine, but it's changing the recharge rule. "The ammo is common enough to be found around in barracks or scrounged off of dead soldiers who didn't get a chance to use them. Some soldiers even collect them so they'll be prepared for the day they'll be assigned the squad's Varia rifle."
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Dec 24, 2018 20:32
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Just like a class being named archer doesn't mean that your character is literally an archer, "run out" doesn't need to literally mean run out.
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Dec 24, 2018 20:33
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"Predators are extremely honorable but also sort of assholes. They only use their best plasma rifle bolts against worthy prey or when abrasions from their fishnet shirts make them grumpy enough."
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Dec 24, 2018 20:39
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GM: sorry, an EMP has disabled your nanomachines, no recharging your trick shots a few combats GM: your gun's new firmware update hosed up, you can only recharge one of your trick arrows. GM: your gun's running on low energy, no trick shots at all this combat.
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Dec 24, 2018 20:39
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All of these are quite reasonable adjustments for other situations but here's the actual rules text of Trick Arrow:quote:When you roll a 2 on your Trick Arrow power, you must treat it as though you rolled a 5, but you have run out of that kind of ammo. Cross the effect off the list. (If you are making this attack in an area, you do not run out of this ammunition until all targets are resolved.) Finding the materials and crafting these Trick Arrows is difficult, time-consuming and expensive. You’ll have to find the downtime to make the Skill Rolls required if you want that particular ability back. Use all the usual rules in the Non-Combat section. This is a powerful ability, so the GM should not let you off easy. So let's look at what we have to satisfy to not create a clash with the mechanics here: a) the material used has to be difficult to get and take time. It's not therefore likely it will just be in enemy stores. b) the time is stated as being difficult to find, so something that is guaranteed to recharge after a given amount of time doesn't really match it. c) when you get the ability to do so, you have to be able to take an action that gives you arbitrary and abstractable number of these attacks (because you might roll a 2 on your first roll or 20 rolls later). d) there are no explicit rules for downtime except in the Dangerous Delves extra rules. They suggest that downtime is usually spent in town, which means those materials can presumably be found in the vicinity or networks of towns. Most of these don't match things like recharging nanomachines or malfunctions.
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Dec 24, 2018 20:50
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It just means you need time, resources, and effort to regain your ability, it's not that complicated, and it isn't that hard to to come up with alternative descriptions of what that means in a given situation.
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Dec 24, 2018 20:57
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Who actually gives a poo poo in the game? No, seriously. We saw these complaints nonstop in 4e and it was bullshit then, too. Who is, mid-game, going "Now hold on a second, I have some questions about these abilities of yours?!" loving nobody, because these complaints aren't rooted in actual gameplay. It's purely complaints for their own sake. Absolutely nobody is interrupting their own game to suddenly ponder the meaning of words in their class ability list.
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Dec 24, 2018 20:57
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ProfessorCirno posted:Absolutely nobody is interrupting their own game to suddenly ponder the meaning of words in their class ability list. You are giving a lot of credit to rpg players here
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Dec 24, 2018 20:59
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| # ? May 23, 2024 17:17 |
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Something something ludonarrative dissonance
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Dec 24, 2018 21:01
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