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Tevery Best posted:So one of the dudes who got posterized in this way broke into the exhibit with a sabre* and cut the photos up. I assume he played one in some other movie and not in a movie set in poland in what, the 17th century?
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Dec 26, 2018 19:07
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FrangibleCover posted:
That ain't old! Designed in 1947, in-service by 1948? quote:IS-2. Plenty made, mechanically fairly reliable, good defined doctrinal role, gun was the correct size for its intended targets (looking at you, Long 88mm that can penetrate nine Shermans parked in a row but will never need to), armour was broadly sufficient against most threats, looks baller. The slow reload was a bummer but it was supposed to kill cats and bunkers and there's really no way of doing that with a small gun and small projectiles. What 88mm are you talking about? the KwK-43? The best ammo (PzGr. 40/43) could "only" do 282mm of armor. Later Shermans had 93.1 mm equivalent... so thats what... three? The IS-2's cannon was the massive D-25T 122mm cannon which had just a little more penetrative power.
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Dec 26, 2018 19:08
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HEY GUNS posted:hell yeah you do Wait, what else did they have for charging aside from pikemen? Aside from tercios, I don't think they had many non-pike lads around.
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Dec 26, 2018 19:33
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Milo and POTUS posted:I assume he played one in some other movie and not in a movie set in poland in what, the 17th century? you are correct in that assumption he's a great actor but he wasn't ever all that sane and kind of went off the rails entirely at some point
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Dec 26, 2018 19:47
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JcDent posted:Wait, what else did they have for charging aside from pikemen? Aside from tercios, I don't think they had many non-pike lads around.
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Dec 26, 2018 20:02
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Tevery Best posted:he's a great actor but he wasn't ever all that sane and kind of went off the rails entirely at some point
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Dec 26, 2018 20:03
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A besabred society is a polite society support my right to cavalry arms
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Dec 26, 2018 20:10
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Those laws were written about bronze spears, they simply aren’t relevant in the era when any tom, dick, or harry can buy a sabre and some pistols with no background check
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Dec 26, 2018 20:19
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EvilMerlin posted:That ain't old! Designed in 1947, in-service by 1948? Final design work was done in 47 but it was almost complete at that point. A lot of the primary design was done in the 30s and interrupted by Germany occupying Belgium. They were about to release a 5 round version with a flush internal mag when Germany invaded Poland and they shelved it iirc The designer escaped to England, tweaked it a bit, and produced prototypes of what became the production mode we know in ‘43. The British Army was going to buy a bunch but the war was drawing down and they backed out. After the war FN picked it up and the you are. That’s how you get a supposedly 1 year turn around on designing and producing such a beautiful rifle. Also it’s worth noting that the FN49 is itself basically an early draft of the venerable FAL.
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Dec 26, 2018 20:24
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EvilMerlin posted:That ain't old! Designed in 1947, in-service by 1948? quote:What 88mm are you talking about? the KwK-43? The best ammo (PzGr. 40/43) could "only" do 282mm of armor. Later Shermans had 93.1 mm equivalent... so thats what... three? This is too much power. Even if nine Shermans in a row is a trifle hyperbolic it's a gun that has more penetration than it needs to deal with any tank on the opposite side and has too small a shell and too high a velocity to be as effective as the 122 against structures. And obviously, the D-25T had to be able to kill Tiger IIs... Edgar Allen Ho posted:Those laws were written about bronze spears, they simply aren't relevant in the era when any tom, dick, or harry can buy a sabre and some pistols with no background check
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Dec 26, 2018 20:44
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Cessna posted:Maybe not a Party-member Nazi, but the guy who played the Spiess - German First Sergeant - in the movie The Great Escape had been in the German Army in WWII. This is how it's portrayed in the Remarque novel. Somehow it's very important to the American filmmakers to get the SS dudes' mannerisms very verisimilitudinar and if there's one thing a guy who escaped a KZ knows a lot about it's SS dudes' behavior. Idk why the Americans would have cared about getting that of all things just right but I report, you decide.
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Dec 26, 2018 20:48
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LatwPIAT posted:Tanks are good, we should talk more about tanks, someone ask me questions about tanks please. :3 What size of bolt holds a Charlie box on a bulkhead of an M60A1?
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Dec 26, 2018 20:57
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Cyrano4747 posted:Final design work was done in 47 but it was almost complete at that point. A lot of the primary design was done in the 30s and interrupted by Germany occupying Belgium. They were about to release a 5 round version with a flush internal mag when Germany invaded Poland and they shelved it iirc The designer escaped to England, tweaked it a bit, and produced prototypes of what became the production mode we know in ‘43. The British Army was going to buy a bunch but the war was drawing down and they backed out. After the war FN picked it up and the you are. That still isn't old! Old? THIS is old: 
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Dec 26, 2018 21:09
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are those metal cartridges? that's not old
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Dec 26, 2018 21:14
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Cythereal posted:Yup. It is hard to understate how apocalyptic the pandemic that swept across North America after the European colonists arrived was. Late 17th/early 18th century North America was a Mad Max grade post-apocalyptic wasteland. OK, someone probably asked this right afterwards, but shy weren't Pilgrims affected by pandemics like that? Like, why didn't they succumb to Maize Craze or jackal lung or whatever? Where there no terrible New World diseases for enterprising rats to bring back to Europe?
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Dec 26, 2018 21:15
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What was the absolute worst WWII tank in terms of crew comfort?
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Dec 26, 2018 21:16
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FrangibleCover posted:
Never really understood the whole "too much power" for tank guns and what not. The KwK 43 was a drat good weapon. Its the same reason the M36 was a drat good tank killer with the L/53.
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Dec 26, 2018 21:20
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:What was the absolute worst WWII tank in terms of crew comfort? Type 95 Ha-Go? Covenanter Tank (Tank, Cruiser, Mk V)? This doesn't include any of the little things like the Tančík or L3/L35 tankette wee tanks...
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Dec 26, 2018 21:25
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JcDent posted:OK, someone probably asked this right afterwards, but shy weren't Pilgrims affected by pandemics like that? Like, why didn't they succumb to Maize Craze or jackal lung or whatever? Where there no terrible New World diseases for enterprising rats to bring back to Europe? There was one, syphilis. Aside from that, no the New World didn't have devastating epidemic diseases that Europeans hadn't already encountered like malaria. And despite what Guns, Germs, and Steel would have you believe, the general consensus of historians is that there is not any particular reason for it. The New World just didn't have epidemic diseases, bar the possible exception of syphilis.
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Dec 26, 2018 21:26
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EvilMerlin posted:Never really understood the whole "too much power" for tank guns and what not. You can't literally have too much power, but you can have too much weight and/or bulk, and for any given technological era, there's a strong correlation between those numbers.
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Dec 26, 2018 21:45
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HEY GUNS posted:where is the tv show or movie for the working historian? The Da Vinci Code? 
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Dec 26, 2018 21:47
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HEY GUNS posted:are those metal cartridges? that's not old Americans think a 100 year old gun is ancient, europeans think... a 100-gun artillery barrage is large?
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Dec 26, 2018 22:09
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EvilMerlin posted:Never really understood the whole "too much power" for tank guns and what not. The kwk 43 is too drat big. It's as tall as a grown man and could only be manhandled briefly by a whole squad of guys. It's the sort of weapon with a more of a use in big flatlands like Ukraine, but marginal utility elsewhere because shorter attacking distances and uneven terrain leaves the crew less distance and time to operate. They also get stuck. Then you have the Pak 44, which was a gun that sat on a mount the size of a tank itself. That's a little too big. Cythereal posted:There was one, syphilis. Can you qualify this? I thought that was the only point of Diamond's that had any meat to it. He was wrong to ignore the presence of densely populated cities in the Americas, but the basic premise of epidemic diseases being transmitted between humans and domesticated animals was sound.
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Dec 26, 2018 22:14
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:Can you qualify this? I thought that was the only point of Diamond's that had any meat to it. He was wrong to ignore the presence of densely populated cities in the Americas, but the basic premise of epidemic diseases being transmitted between humans and domesticated animals was sound. The problem with that theory is that there's no real evidence to it. It's possible that domesticated animals were an important factor in the spread of epidemic diseases, but a lot of common disease vectors like monkeys and mosquitoes aren't domesticated at all. Just as important as domesticated animals for animal-human transmission are animals eaten for food (including cannibalism) and pest animals that share a living space. Diamond tries to fit that into an overall model for the success and decline of different civilizations via other advantages and disadvantages afforded by the availability of animals for domestication, and with evidence so thin on the ground for where most diseases originally come from that's not historically sound. In general, Diamond has a particular theory for civilization that he tries to fit everything into (and he's weirdly racist, flat-out calling some cultures and nationalities innately more intelligent than others), and one of the key lessons of history is that things generally don't fit cleanly into big overarching models. poo poo happens for no particular reason due to blind luck and happenstance.
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Dec 26, 2018 22:21
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Afro-Eurasia just gets a lot more rolls of the disease dice I guess.
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Dec 26, 2018 22:26
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Cythereal posted:(and he's weirdly racist, flat-out calling some cultures and nationalities innately more intelligent than others) . . . poo poo happens for no particular reason due to blind luck and happenstance. He what in the what now? I’ve never actually read GGS but this runs pretty squarely in the face of stuff he’s said in interviews and what I at least thought was the entire point of the book. Also the latter point is pretty much exactly what his thesis is when you boil it down, isn’t it? E: to clarify, the world is how it is because of the luck of geography, and definitely not innate superiority of any culture or nationality.
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Dec 26, 2018 22:31
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feedmegin posted:The Da Vinci Code?
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Dec 26, 2018 22:32
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so, weird hypothetical alert, but let's say Beringia had stayed above water and there had been contact across the land bridge so old world diseases could get to the new world and vice versa for millennia. do you think that such a connection would've allowed a buffering process, so that when the Columbian exchange came along smallpox et al and syphilis wouldn't have run rampant for a few centuries before immunities rose, and instead would've had much less dramatic effects? that 'analysis' is poo poo I made up taking diamond's argument for granted, so I'm interested to see how it's demolished in light of facts edit: in the context of me as a middle schooler ggs was a dramatically anti racist argument. I can imagine how in other contexts, like non ignorant contexts, his pop sci could turn into something like the opposite oystertoadfish fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Dec 26, 2018 |
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Dec 26, 2018 22:37
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The hypothetical changes a lot if the theoretical bridge was across a populous Atlantic or something and there actually was significant enough sustained contact to have populations intermingling and so on the way they did in the Old World, so if your question is if that part would have given wider immunity I dunno (but I imagine so). But specifically Beringia staying above the water wouldn’t have changed much, in that sense anyway; in fact, the Siberian natives on the Eurasian side, in Kamchatka and so on, got hit with waves of disease almost every bit as badly as the indigenous peoples of the Americas had, wiping out the population there in a pretty similar way. Contact that far into eastern Siberia was several times removed from the settled societies until recent times. For that matter, apparently there was also actually (irregular but) sustained contact over the Bering Sea anyway, that didn’t stop just because the land went away. Koramei fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Dec 26, 2018 |
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Dec 26, 2018 22:45
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zoux posted:Does anyone else think that a stalag is a weird setting for a sitcom They made like a thousand episodes of Allo Allo, a sitcom about bumbling French resistance fighters, and their bumbling Nazi enemies. It's... it's of its time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snwqp-7QD7M
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Dec 26, 2018 22:46
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EvilMerlin posted:Never really understood the whole "too much power" for tank guns and what not. The issue with the 8.8 cm KwK 43 is that it was huge in every way. The barrel was long and threw the turret out of balance, the breech was big and took up a ton of space, the ammunition was long and difficult to handle in the cramped fighting compartment.
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Dec 26, 2018 22:52
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Koramei posted:He what in the what now? I’ve never actually read GGS but this runs pretty squarely in the face of stuff he’s said in interviews and what I at least thought was the entire point of the book. He says in GGS that he thinks the New Guinea islanders are more intelligent than Westerners because they still live at the subsistence level and quickly figure out how to use any technology or products thereof to their advantage, whereas most people from the civilized world would never think of such uses for simple glass and pieces of plastic. His thesis is more complex than that and argues that it was specifically the presence or lack of domesticatable animals that was the hinge on which civilizations became technologically advanced or not.
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Dec 26, 2018 22:56
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:What was the absolute worst WWII tank in terms of crew comfort? Comparatively the Covenanter, which merely boiled you to death slowly, is a dream tank. EvilMerlin posted:Never really understood the whole "too much power" for tank guns and what not. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said the M36 was a drat good tank killer with the L/53. It was. Is a tank killer what you want your heavy tank to be? Slim Jim Pickens posted:The kwk 43 is too drat big. It's as tall as a grown man and could only be manhandled briefly by a whole squad of guys. It's the sort of weapon with a more of a use in big flatlands like Ukraine, but marginal utility elsewhere because shorter attacking distances and uneven terrain leaves the crew less distance and time to operate. They also get stuck. E: Ensign Expendable posted:The issue with the 8.8 cm KwK 43 is that it was huge in every way. The barrel was long and threw the turret out of balance, the breech was big and took up a ton of space, the ammunition was long and difficult to handle in the cramped fighting compartment. FrangibleCover fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Dec 26, 2018 |
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Dec 26, 2018 22:57
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Cythereal posted:He says in GGS that he thinks the New Guinea islanders are more intelligent than Westerners because they still live at the subsistence level and quickly figure out how to use any technology or products thereof to their advantage, whereas most people from the civilized world would never think of such uses for simple glass and pieces of plastic. The presence/lack of domesticatable animals, which he stressed is specifically as based on the luck of geography determining which regions had them and which didn’t. Also like I said I haven’t read it but that example of his racism sounds a lot like you either misinterpreting something or blowing some minor aside he put in to emphasize his counter narrative way out of proportion.
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Dec 26, 2018 23:02
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Koramei posted:The hypothetical changes a lot if the theoretical bridge was across a populous Atlantic or something and there actually was significant enough sustained contact to have populations intermingling and so on the way they did in the Old World, so if your question is if that part would have given wider immunity I dunno (but I imagine so). thanks for that, especially the reality check about Siberian disease it sounds like it's less of a 'humanity got separated into two piles of disease and when they reconnected the smaller pile got destroyed' and more of a 'settled societies brew up a lot of diseases that can kill less dense societies, but the Aztecs and Inca and Mississippian civilizations got hosed by contingency'. so no more broad sweeping diamondian global theses for me, then. it sounds like there simply isn't a lot of evidence and therefore isn't a lot of knowledge about why the urbanized (or whatever we're calling it) new world wasn't better armed in the germ war also I'd read old poo poo saying syphilis had been in Europe for centuries, is the consensus now that people were confusing yaws or something for syphilis?
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Dec 26, 2018 23:02
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oystertoadfish posted:thanks for that, especially the reality check about Siberian disease The earliest confirmed outbreak of syphilis in Europe was in 1495, three years after Columbus' first voyage, and archaeological evidence seems to support this theory. However, it's also been proposed that some records of ancient disease match the symptoms of syphilis and so the disease may have originated in Europe, Asia, or Africa. The problem with the history of diseases is that diseases don't tend to leave much physical evidence, and once you go back past the 17th century or so in Europe, records about diseases become extremely unreliable due to the less advanced scientific and medical practices and knowledge of the time. And just to make things that much more confusing, many disease agents do mutate over time and in different environments, so it's possible that, for example, the syphilis bacterium is native to the Old World but only mutated into the form now recognized as syphilis around 1495.
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Dec 26, 2018 23:11
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Koramei posted:The presence/lack of domesticatable animals, which he stressed is specifically as based on the luck of geography determining which regions had them and which didn’t. Yea, IIRC the point of that argument was that people who spend most of their time mastering the use of complex machinery, will be less skilled at improvising tools from random materials, compared to people who spend a lot of time making basic tools from scratch.
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Dec 26, 2018 23:12
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Cythereal posted:The earliest confirmed outbreak of syphilis in Europe was in 1495, three years after Columbus' first voyage, and archaeological evidence seems to support this theory. However, it's also been proposed that some records of ancient disease match the symptoms of syphilis and so the disease may have originated in Europe, Asia, or Africa. If I'm remembering all the details correctly Bernal Diaz reports soldiers having trouble climbing a pyramid because of the sores in their groins. Primary and secondary syphilis seems to have been the norm among the first generation of conquistadors.
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Dec 26, 2018 23:29
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life was loving tough. also I read something claiming that at the height of syphilis in Europe, if you were walking in a cosmopolitan city like Amsterdam something like one in ten or twenty passers by would have visible syphilis scars. it mentioned some romance of the time where the beautiful female lead incidentally happens to have facial syphilis scars, it was just part of life. I wish I remembered the source but horseshit anecdotes are all you get sry given that background the reformation of manners and the importance of religion in conflict makes a lot of sense to me, I'm assuming many theses have gone over that ground edit: oh yeah, thanks for the paragraphs of education on global historical epidemiology y'all. I have to say, the diamond thesis is seductive, I guess because of its pop science nature. are there alternative explanations for the failure of urban pathogens to develop in the Western hemisphere? was it just that the urban centers weren't dense enough, weren't close enough, and hadn't had quite as many millennia to get some good plagues? I guess diamond's observation about Eurasia being wider than it is tall, facilitating all kinds of ecological and social contact, and America bring the opposite, could be related to this, even without needing the sexy, sexy livestock in the story oystertoadfish fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Dec 26, 2018 |
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Dec 26, 2018 23:35
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Americans think a 100 year old gun is ancient, europeans think... a 100-gun artillery barrage is large? Tell that to the Soviets 
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Dec 26, 2018 23:55
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