Nehru the Damaja posted:

I feel like there's some dissonance between the tenets and "this is the nature /fey/elf Paladin" mechanics. When I first started I wanted to make an Ancients Paladin that I think someone here shorthanded to "beer knight" but the mechanics would take some substantial reskinning to fit.

Xae posted:

You have to play the character as someone who views nature not as something you take a pretty but somber stroll through, but as something that you have a Dionysian rite in and stay up all night drinking and dancing. Leave the "nature is so precious no one should touch it" routine to the Druids.

To an Ancient Paladin Nature isn't something to be appreciated like a piece in a museum, it is something to be lived in, shared and enjoyed. And something you have to protect.

Ryuujin posted:

Why are those heroes not D&D Fighters? If you say it is because of divine blood, or other gifts beyond the norm. Then what about Wizards and other magic users? In the same stories where these legendary warriors come from pretty much all serious spellcasters have divine/demonic blood or some other gift that sets them above the norm. And D&D doesn't have any trouble giving spellcasters these abilities beyond the norm. Heck D&D Wizards put most magic users from myth, legend, and the suggested reading list to outright shame. Gandalf was basically an angel, and had low level Druidic magic at best. Merlin generally didn't pull off the kind of stuff D&D Wizards can do, and he was part demon and possibly aged backwards.

The problem is there is a double standard where Magic Users get to do the things legendary spellcasters could do, and so much more, and Martial characters get to be maybe a little better than the average soldier of an earlier time period. And probably not even that. Multiple versions of D&D have nonmagical characters with the highest possible stat incapable of performing tasks that real people in the real world can do.

Skyl3lazer posted:

No, people were complaining that their homerule isn't in the book, so actually playing by that rule didn't solve the problem.

TheGreatEvilKing posted:

creating a duplicate of you that can throw out your entire spell complement.

Nehru the Damaja posted:

The post about how the Fighter should be "the hero" still seems like the most reasonable change - - whoever it was that said a fighter should inspire and be a leader and an exemplar of their people.

I don't know how to systematize it, but it's like the only idea here that has stayed on task in recognizing that Fighter needs more love in the other pillars more than he needs to be better at killing.

Norts Universal Martial Maneuvers posted:

Warlord’s Recovery:
Prerequisite: Charisma 12+, Fighter or Barbarian Proficiency: Performance
When a creature friendly to you that you can see takes damage or fails a saving throw, if that creature can see and hear you, you can expend one superiority die and use a reaction to bolster that ally. You grant the creature one of the following benefits based on the trigger:
1. If the creature failed a saving throw, it can reroll the saving throw and use either result, adding the superiority die to the chosen roll.
2. If the creature took damage, roll the superiority de and add half your fighter level. Reduce the triggering instance of damage by the resulting amount.

Norts Universal Martial Maneuvers posted:

Mojo:
Proficiency: Intimidation or Performance
As an action, you confer inspiration to friendly creatures that can see or hear you.
Roll as many superiority die as you wish to commit and add the results. You may confer inspiration to HD of creatures equal to the result.

Norts Universal Martial Maneuvers posted:

Legend:
Perform legendary physical acts that once witnessed cannot be forgotten. Those who witness and survive ensure you are the zeitgeist.
At the beginning of your turn, you spend and roll one superiority dice. You draw the eye of all who can see you until the beginning of your next turn. Your actions impress upon the minds of those witnessing you and will be recalled and discussed for days to come. Multiply your level by the results of your superiority dice roll, the result is your Legend score.
Witnesses will recall and talk about your actions to others as part of their downtime activities for a number of hours equal to the Legend score. The consequences of this chatter and increasing renown depend upon the nature of your actions, how may witness the legendary action, which factions they belong to and the context of the campaign.
...
Legend may also sow panic and intimidation amongst enemies, or affect other factions differently.

DrSunshine posted:

To risk throwing in my two cents into the fray, I have an idea for the "fighter" problem. That doesn't involve changing over to a totally different system!

What about just giving Fighters an extra series of abilities: Heroic Feats.

Tendales posted:

You can say that you can just fix fighters via house rules, but even if you've got the best fix in the world you're still going to have to apply more and more spackle every time you try to integrate some new product that assumes you're using the fighter as written. And god help you if you try to integrate your great ideas with another gaming group that has their own solutions to the problem.

DrSunshine posted:

To risk throwing in my two cents into the fray, I have an idea for the "fighter" problem. That doesn't involve changing over to a totally different system!

What about just giving Fighters an extra series of abilities: Heroic Feats. You get more of them as you level up, and they get stronger at higher levels. They recharge with each long rest. What it does, is that whenever you would have to make an ability check, or saving throw, of DC X or lower, you can spend a Heroic Feat to simply do it.

You could have them get better as you level up, so at Levels 1-5, your Heroic Feat can grant instant success on something with DC 10 or lower, 6-10 DC 15 or lower, 11-15 DC 20 or lower, 16-18, DC 25, and 19-20, DC 35.

Bloody Hedgehog posted:

I just picked finished going through Art & Arcana, and I dug all the old D&D art. I found though that I far more enjoyed the older art than the newer stuff. The new stuff is certainly beautiful and technically accomplished, but it's so staid and monotone and lifeless compared to the older images full of color and pop.

Is there any consensus out there among D&D fans about new vs old art? Are people happy with what were getting now, or is there a groundswell hoping the D&D crew ups their art game?

Bloody Hedgehog posted:

Is there any consensus out there among D&D fans about new vs old art? Are people happy with what were getting now, or is there a groundswell hoping the D&D crew ups their art game?

clusterfuck posted:

AlphaDog posted:

Yep, that's a possible way to do it if you get more, better Heroic Feats as you level and you have a broader variety of things to do with them. As in, also expend them for extra damage, or to remove opponents, or to move real fast real far at no risk, or...

But then you might as well just bite the bullet and call them spell slots.

DrSunshine posted:

Well, the difference being that a spell is a specific sort of effect or thing, whereas you could apply a heroic feat whenever you'd use a bennie in some other RPG system. Basically "I'll use a bennie to leap onto the moving freight train!" versus having to perform a skill check against your dexterity.

Xae posted:

Re Art:
Old art was hit or miss. I remember there being plenty of cringe, even as a teenager reading the 2e book.

DrSunshine posted:

To risk throwing in my two cents into the fray, I have an idea for the "fighter" problem. That doesn't involve changing over to a totally different system!

What about just giving Fighters an extra series of abilities: Heroic Feats. You get more of them as you level up, and they get stronger at higher levels. They recharge with each long rest. What it does, is that whenever you would have to make an ability check, or saving throw, of DC X or lower, you can spend a Heroic Feat to simply do it.

You could have them get better as you level up, so at Levels 1-5, your Heroic Feat can grant instant success on something with DC 10 or lower, 6-10 DC 15 or lower, 11-15 DC 20 or lower, 16-18, DC 25, and 19-20, DC 35.

ProfessorCirno posted:

So, sorta the opposite of this is something I've tossed around in my own head when thinking about how I'd remake the martial class(es). Namely, let their schtick be manipulating their own attributes, which is something Fighters and rogues could do in the high level abilities of AD&D2e. Let Fighters literally declare (on whatever timer you want) that their strength is actually ten points higher, for example. Wizards can still jerk off to their Knock spell that just auto-unlocks things, and their Invisibility spell that just auto-succeeds stealth...but that requires two spells, whereas a rogue just uses one ability to knock their whole dexterity score up several notches to be simply The Best at those skills. It also creates a cool narrative moment where things are too hard and strenuous for the fighter, at which point he reaches deep down inside and focuses hard and does, in fact, gain the strength of ten mortal men to accomplish the seemingly impossible. By not making it an auto-success you also sidestep the "isn't this just a spell?" problem, not that it'll matter to grogs, who will whine about literally anything that makes non-spellcasters interesting.

AlphaDog posted:

Yeah, hell yeah, plenty of lovely art back then that should never resurface. But I really like the b/w and line drawing vibe.

Also I feel like it wouldn't hurt to at least nod at the dorky '80s aesthetic that's sadly lost with the new thing where nearly everything is epic at all times.

DrSunshine posted:

I love the old rulebooks.

AlphaDog posted:

Mechanically: The Veteran is hard to surprise, doesn't get lost, turns out to have prepared for exactly this, hardly ever gets tired, nearly always knows a local, and knows a pertinent detail or two about nearly everything.

Gharbad the Weak posted:

I would play the hell out of that class.

ProfessorCirno posted:

So, sorta the opposite of this is something I've tossed around in my own head when thinking about how I'd remake the martial class(es). Namely, let their schtick be manipulating their own attributes, which is something Fighters and rogues could do in the high level abilities of AD&D2e. Let Fighters literally declare (on whatever timer you want) that their strength is actually ten points higher, for example. Wizards can still jerk off to their Knock spell that just auto-unlocks things, and their Invisibility spell that just auto-succeeds stealth...but that requires two spells, whereas a rogue just uses one ability to knock their whole dexterity score up several notches to be simply The Best at those skills. It also creates a cool narrative moment where things are too hard and strenuous for the fighter, at which point he reaches deep down inside and focuses hard and does, in fact, gain the strength of ten mortal men to accomplish the seemingly impossible. By not making it an auto-success you also sidestep the "isn't this just a spell?" problem, not that it'll matter to grogs, who will whine about literally anything that makes non-spellcasters interesting.

Bloody Hedgehog posted:

I just picked finished going through Art & Arcana, and I dug all the old D&D art. I found though that I far more enjoyed the older art than the newer stuff. The new stuff is certainly beautiful and technically accomplished, but it's so staid and monotone and lifeless compared to the older images full of color and pop.

Is there any consensus out there among D&D fans about new vs old art? Are people happy with what were getting now, or is there a groundswell hoping the D&D crew ups their art game?

TheGreatEvilKing posted:

That's my point. Look at what Hercules did (diverting a river) and look at what D&D fighters can do (hit things with a sword harder, but not enough to impress the necromancer and his endless legions). Hell, look at Beowulf - he is hardcore enough to swim underwater and fight demons in hand to hand combat, while also being a wise and educated man who can run a kingdom. A D&D fighter cannot do the latter, because he is busily lowering his intelligence to stay on par with the expected strength score. Your second paragraph pre-empts what I am going to say, which is that Mearls would have you believe that getting an extra sword stab per round is the equivalent of creating a duplicate of you that can throw out your entire spell complement.

You could easily go through a bunch of myths and legends of warriors doing crazy poo poo, come up with a "spell list" (give it some nonmagical name, I don't care) and put that on par with a D&D mage. Mearls is not going to do that because he is literally advertising this edition as being for you to fix because he's too lazy to do his job and balance the game. Have fun!

Xae posted:

You have to play the character as someone who views nature not as something you take a pretty but somber stroll through, but as something that you have a Dionysian rite in and stay up all night drinking and dancing. Leave the "nature is so precious no one should touch it" routine to the Druids.

To an Ancient Paladin Nature isn't something to be appreciated like a piece in a museum, it is something to be lived in, shared and enjoyed. And something you have to protect.

Toshimo posted:

So, S8 of Adventurer's League saw them bring in some real restrictions on Magic Item acquisition. And whiny manbabies flipped their everloving poo poo on it.

I just learned today what the official DM advice is for the approximate number of Big Boy magic items (DMG Tables F-I) a player is expected to accrue from level 1 to 20 is, to stay sort of within the power guidelines of official adventures.

5: 2 uncommon, 1 each of rare, very rare, and legendary. Plus around 20 assorted minor items and consumables from Tables A-E.

Now, how many items does AL effectively limit you to by comparison?

10: 1 uncommon, 2 rare, 6 very rare, 1 legendary. There's some extra points floating around and you can get more legendaries instead of very rares, but they are more expensive and it's more a matter of unlocking them by running the right adventures.

D&D "fans" are the worst.

Arthil posted:

The issue from what I understand is less the amount, and more how you get them. Instead of kicking down the Dragon's front door, giving him the worst bad day ever, and then getting to rifle through his hoard... "Congrats! Here's some loot points". Kind of deflates the whole thing, doesn't it?

Arthil posted:

The issue from what I understand is less the amount, and more how you get them. Instead of kicking down the Dragon's front door, giving him the worst bad day ever, and then getting to rifle through his hoard... "Congrats! Here's some loot points". Kind of deflates the whole thing, doesn't it?

Nehru the Damaja posted:

It's more that the mechanics are nature junk but the oath could be so much more. If your oath is to uphold the good things in life, why does that manifest in elfy tree hugger ways. I like the tenets and mechanics but neither seems to imply the other, to me.