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Grendels Dad posted:He gets them together in one place but it's Padme who has the incredible idea to not be an rear end in a top hat and thus bridges the gap between the two peoples. Well, yeah, after she despairs to him and Jar Jar says, “Hey idiot, my people are right there.”
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Dec 27, 2018 20:26
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Jewmanji posted:I’m a Jew and I am so un-offended by Watto that I didn’t realize until years after the film came out that some people considered him an anti-Semitic stereotype. The idea had never occurred to me. same but with the nemoidians. i was really confused when i read darths and droids and their dialogue replaced all the l’s with r’s and i had no idea what that was from
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Dec 27, 2018 21:42
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Jewmanji posted:I’m a Jew and I am so un-offended by Watto that I didn’t realize until years after the film came out that some people considered him an anti-Semitic stereotype. The idea had never occurred to me. I think in the second one Lucas went "I don't think Watto reads as stereotypically Jewish enough. Let's give him a scraggly beard and one of those hats."
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Dec 27, 2018 22:01
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Watto is an antagonist, certainly, and inflicts various evils on the innocent Anakin and Shmi. He is a morally complex character, because any individual's existence within an immoral system is complicated by their relation to that system. His malefactions are not connected by the story to a specific moral failing on his own part. The only thing aberrant about him is his gambling addiction; the condition of slavery that his slaves suffer under is portrayed as the responsibility of the leaders of the planet they live on, whom the viewer will have already seen getting comeuppance of a sort in the previous film. Even Anakin has no rage for him. (He also explicitly says the slave-owning Clegg and his family are good people.)
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Dec 27, 2018 22:15
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PostNouveau posted:I think in the second one Lucas went "I don't think Watto reads as stereotypically Jewish enough. Let's give him a scraggly beard and one of those hats." Scraggly beards are a Jewish stereotype? And hats?
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Dec 27, 2018 22:35
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There are rumours the next movie will address this.
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Dec 27, 2018 22:58
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Jewmanji posted:Scraggly beards are a Jewish stereotype? And hats? The hat I'll give you has a certain cultural similarity, but na- Orthodox Jews, Hassids, etc. are noted for thick, full beards, whereas Watto clearly just stopped shaving for a few days.
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Dec 27, 2018 23:39
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Maxwell Lord posted:The hat I'll give you has a certain cultural similarity, but na- Orthodox Jews, Hassids, etc. are noted for thick, full beards, whereas Watto clearly just stopped shaving for a few days. Kippahs are specifically brimless. He’s wearing a world war 1 era helmet.
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Dec 27, 2018 23:49
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It's the top of a pit droid's head, ackshully.
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Dec 27, 2018 23:53
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The beard and vaguely wife beaterish looking shirt/smock reads as italian more than Jewish.
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Dec 27, 2018 23:57
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banned from Starbucks posted:The beard and vaguely wife beaterish looking shirt/smock reads as italian more than Jewish. same thing
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Dec 28, 2018 00:08
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God am I not going to click any link posted in this discussion.
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Dec 28, 2018 00:14
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na
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Dec 28, 2018 01:32
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Bongo Bill posted:Watto is an antagonist, certainly, and inflicts various evils on the innocent Anakin and Shmi. He is a morally complex character, because any individual's existence within an immoral system is complicated by their relation to that system. His malefactions are not connected by the story to a specific moral failing on his own part. The only thing aberrant about him is his gambling addiction; the condition of slavery that his slaves suffer under is portrayed as the responsibility of the leaders of the planet they live on, whom the viewer will have already seen getting comeuppance of a sort in the previous film. Even Anakin has no rage for him. (He also explicitly says the slave-owning Clegg and his family are good people.) To say that his slaves suffering is a responsibility of the leaders of the planet is nonsense. Watto has slaves, presumably others on Tatooine do not. Are those who don't own slaves also not having them as a result of their leaders? To own a slave is a deliberate moral choice, regardless of society. We don't think that the Southern slaveholders were less evil just because it was considered a norm in their society.
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Dec 28, 2018 02:01
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Shiroc posted:The last time I watched Phantom Menace I got the impression that Boss Nass wasn't actually mind tricked, realized that's what they were trying to do and intentionally complied in a way that he expected to result in them getting killed. If you look at the scene, Qui-Gon is doing the "mind control" hand gestures subtly as Boss Nass repeats everything back to him exactly as Quo-Gon requests it I think though what your supposed to take from the film as a whole though is Jedi Mind Control only works when the subject is actually most interested in what they request. I.e. like you said Boss Nass absolutely wants them and Jar-Jar gone asap so hes open to it, Watto is not open to getting stiffed by some loving broke assholes. Thos cops on Tattooine just wanted to end their shift and get slammed
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Dec 28, 2018 02:10
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CountFosco posted:To say that his slaves suffering is a responsibility of the leaders of the planet is nonsense. Watto has slaves, presumably others on Tatooine do not. Are those who don't own slaves also not having them as a result of their leaders? To own a slave is a deliberate moral choice, regardless of society. We don't think that the Southern slaveholders were less evil just because it was considered a norm in their society. I definitely don't disagree, but this comparison is not the greatest. North American slavery was racial and had direct ties to industrialism. Slavery on Tatooine seems closer to medieval or Roman slavery or some poo poo. Nebalebadingdong fucked around with this message at 03:40 on Dec 28, 2018 |
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Dec 28, 2018 03:27
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CountFosco posted:To say that his slaves suffering is a responsibility of the leaders of the planet is nonsense. Watto has slaves, presumably others on Tatooine do not. Are those who don't own slaves also not having them as a result of their leaders? To own a slave is a deliberate moral choice, regardless of society. We don't think that the Southern slaveholders were less evil just because it was considered a norm in their society. Everyone on Tatooine has slaves or is one. Han Solo just uses the place as a port and is both slave and slaver. There's nothing in the films to support your presumption.
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Dec 28, 2018 03:39
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Owning a slave is, inherintly, evil full stop. Watto participates in Slavery with manumission in some capacity and some method of slaves to count as regular people which is better than strict chattel slavery but thats sort of putting a pretty bow on it. AotC is basically "oh hey Anakin, you mom got sold into sexual slavery and now you have a half brother. Oh and shes dead and nobody cared to really investigate, cause, you know poor farmers and a slave" Also its really important to note the passage of time between TPM and AotC; it means in the time that has transpired absolutely nothing has changed about slavery on the planet in about a decade despite both a sitting senator and Jedi Master being aware of it and its non-compliance with the Republics laws.
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Dec 28, 2018 03:41
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Why hasn't Disney released the original theatrical versions of the OT? Do they not know how much money it would make. There've been thousands of man-hours spent, for free, just to make approximations of it
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Dec 28, 2018 04:04
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The future of the franchise is selling bad films, it's not good business to remind people of the less bad films that already exist
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Dec 28, 2018 04:09
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Question Friend posted:Why hasn't Disney released the original theatrical versions of the OT? Do they not know how much money it would make. You've answered your own question.
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Dec 28, 2018 04:16
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Yeah I don’t like peer-reviewed work either
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Dec 28, 2018 04:21
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Question Friend posted:Why hasn't Disney released the original theatrical versions of the OT? Do they not know how much money it would make. There've been thousands of man-hours spent, for free, just to make approximations of it Kathleen Kennedy has said on multiple occasions that they aren't touching Lucas' revisions to the original trilogy.
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Dec 28, 2018 04:31
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Watto owns a child slave which he enters in death races he's is a bad guy, there's really no need for.this bizarre equivocation here.
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Dec 28, 2018 06:43
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Question Friend posted:Why hasn't Disney released the original theatrical versions of the OT? Do they not know how much money it would make. There've been thousands of man-hours spent, for free, just to make approximations of it When the original theatrical versions were released as DVD extras, those DVDs sold poorly. They were in poor (non-anamorphic) quality, but that is literally the only data point there is. That the audience for something is very devoted does not necessarily mean it is large enough to be profitable. This is another reason why capitalism sucks.
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Dec 28, 2018 07:25
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Barudak posted:If you look at the scene, Qui-Gon is doing the "mind control" hand gestures subtly as Boss Nass repeats everything back to him exactly as Quo-Gon requests it I know the gesture is there but I still don't think he's entirely into it. He only repeats the first line and not exactly as Qui-Gon said it. After he says he'll give them a Bongo in response to Qui-Gon demanding transport, Jar Jar immediately reacts to it being a trick. That's why I think Nass just knew what was happening. Anakin does the same subtle gesture to Padme when she confronts him on Mustafar and it has no impact. The only time I can remember the mind trick obviously working out as planned in the prequels is with the death stick dealer in AotC. It fits with the other themes of the Jedi that they think they can get away with it all of the time but it never actually works to plan and reflects how little they think of people.
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Dec 28, 2018 08:29
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kidkissinger posted:Watto owns a child slave which he enters in death races he's is a bad guy, there's really no need for.this bizarre equivocation here. Luke Skywalker owns slaves. He is a bad guy.
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Dec 28, 2018 12:24
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Shiroc posted:I know the gesture is there but I still don't think he's entirely into it. He only repeats the first line and not exactly as Qui-Gon said it. After he says he'll give them a Bongo in response to Qui-Gon demanding transport, Jar Jar immediately reacts to it being a trick. That's why I think Nass just knew what was happening. It's a monkey's paw thing. You trick needs to be specific or someone's original intention will twist it.
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Dec 28, 2018 12:27
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sassassin posted:Luke Skywalker owns slaves. He is a bad guy. Luke clearly isn’t interested in a life that involves policing chattel droids. The first things we see him do are remove a restraining bolt, give a droid a bath, and reject the title of “master”.
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Dec 28, 2018 14:11
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Shiroc posted:The only time I can remember the mind trick obviously working out as planned in the prequels is with the death stick dealer in AotC. It fits with the other themes of the Jedi that they think they can get away with it all of the time but it never actually works to plan and reflects how little they think of people. After going home and rethinking his life, Elan Sleazebaggano realized there was a lot more money in dealing spice than deathsticks.
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Dec 28, 2018 14:22
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Feel like it's worth pointing out that medieval Jews are given weird-rear end hats in drawings of them that would definitely not have served the same religious function as the kippah. This is because non-Jews mark out Jewishness by how other Jews are, even if it doesn't accord to any reality a non-antisemite occupies. This tendency to nitpick on whether Jews actually have prehensile upper lips misses how racial stereotypes actually function. It only matters that the lip is placed on the face where it is, and has the shape it has. The capacity for the antisemitic caricature to flourish is all too readily there in Watto, you'd have to be wilfully blind to miss that. e: anyone denying this capacity has to account for the Watto/Wyatt Mann cartoon posted a few pages ago btw Jrbg fucked around with this message at 15:11 on Dec 28, 2018 |
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Dec 28, 2018 15:04
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sassassin posted:Luke Skywalker owns slaves. He is a bad guy. Luke didn't buy and doesn't own those droids.
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Dec 28, 2018 15:05
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J_RBG posted:Feel like it's worth pointing out that medieval Jews are given weird-rear end hats in drawings of them that would definitely not have served the same religious function as the kippah. This is because non-Jews mark out Jewishness by how other Jews are, even if it doesn't accord to any reality a non-antisemite occupies. This tendency to nitpick on whether Jews actually have prehensile upper lips misses how racial stereotypes actually function. It only matters that the lip is placed on the face where it is, and has the shape it has. The capacity for the antisemitic caricature to flourish is all too readily there in Watto, you'd have to be wilfully blind to miss that. Even if the visual design of Watto was evocative of medieval cartoons of Jews, nothing about Watto's personality or his actions accords with anti-Jewish stereotypes. He's an ornery slave-owning junk trader who likes to gamble. What anti-Semitic trope is he evincing or what anti-Semitic role is he fulfilling? Think about how it differs from say, the depiction of Shylock, where it's heavily implied that he is Jewish, and that this is inextricable from his negative attributes.
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Dec 28, 2018 15:24
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J_RBG posted:Feel like it's worth pointing out that medieval Jews are given weird-rear end hats in drawings of them that would definitely not have served the same religious function as the kippah. This is because non-Jews mark out Jewishness by how other Jews are, even if it doesn't accord to any reality a non-antisemite occupies. This tendency to nitpick on whether Jews actually have prehensile upper lips misses how racial stereotypes actually function. It only matters that the lip is placed on the face where it is, and has the shape it has. The capacity for the antisemitic caricature to flourish is all too readily there in Watto, you'd have to be wilfully blind to miss that. No one has to account for the Mann cartoon because it doesn't look like Watto, just like the claims that he was a money loving swindler were just plain false
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Dec 28, 2018 15:31
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I just checked the film, and Watto does indeed roll his chance cube along the direction where there are three red sides and one blue side, only for Qui-Gon to tip it over sideways at the last second.
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Dec 28, 2018 15:38
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kidkissinger posted:Luke didn't buy and doesn't own those droids. "His family/the estate owned the slaves, not him!" is a shameful technicality to fall back on.
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Dec 28, 2018 16:25
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sassassin posted:Everyone on Tatooine has slaves or is one. Han Solo just uses the place as a port and is both slave and slaver. This is pure speculation. Everyone? The entire planet? Cite your sources please.
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Dec 28, 2018 17:19
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J_RBG posted:Feel like it's worth pointing out that medieval Jews are given weird-rear end hats in drawings of them that would definitely not have served the same religious function as the kippah. This is because non-Jews mark out Jewishness by how other Jews are, even if it doesn't accord to any reality a non-antisemite occupies. This tendency to nitpick on whether Jews actually have prehensile upper lips misses how racial stereotypes actually function. It only matters that the lip is placed on the face where it is, and has the shape it has. The capacity for the antisemitic caricature to flourish is all too readily there in Watto, you'd have to be wilfully blind to miss that. You're being willfully blind to the fact that a lot of the racial stereotypes being attributed to Watto are easily mapped to other minorities besides people of Jewish descent. Hell, someone just pointed out that Watto's stereotypes read as more Italian than Jewish and your defensive response is to say "no, he's really a reflection of Jewish stereotypes!" instead of taking a step back and realizing the fundamental truth of racism is the othering of ALL minorities with the same set of superficialities. Someone can easily alter that Watto drawing into any number of stereotypes. Give him a bandolier and gold tooth and he's a racist bandito, draw an undershirt on him and give him a gold cross and suddenly he's an Italian stereotype. I get that racism is disgusting and can give you a complex about your cultural identity, but the racists job is to make those stereotypes "true" in that they WANT us to believe these stereotypes about us, to deflect from their own cultural insecurities. It's an easy trap to fall into, and one of the main reasons people call Jar Jar a racist depiction of a minority while hailing the minorities in TLJ who have been stripped of their cultural identity and all speak with a flat American accent.
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Dec 28, 2018 17:28
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Jewmanji posted:Even if the visual design of Watto was evocative of medieval cartoons of Jews, nothing about Watto's personality or his actions accords with anti-Jewish stereotypes. He's an ornery slave-owning junk trader who likes to gamble. What anti-Semitic trope is he evincing or what anti-Semitic role is he fulfilling? Jewish domination of the slave trade is an anti-Semitic trope.
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Dec 28, 2018 17:46
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sassassin posted:"His family/the estate owned the slaves, not him!" is a shameful technicality to fall back on. Jewmanji posted:Luke clearly isn’t interested in a life that involves policing chattel droids. The first things we see him do are remove a restraining bolt, give a droid a bath, and reject the title of “master”.
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Dec 28, 2018 18:13
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