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NikkolasKing posted:So I read the Mistborn and Stormlight books and found them really good but the overarching mythos is kinda beyond me. Like, I gathered from the random snippets of dialogue between chapters that Odium used to just be some dude but nothing more than that. But apparently Odium is the same thing as Ruin and Preservation and there were a bunch of others, too. I've learned more from various posts online than these books which were really good but "self-contained" stories if you get my meaning. Arcanum Unbounded will give you the best textual grounding in what's going on among the various Cosmere worlds and how they're interacting. There's also the coppermind wiki site which collects a lot of information and analysis, including Word of Brian (WoB) about his plans and ideas. He geeks out about his writing and often gives a lot away at book signings and the like. There's also tons of references that are almost impossible to get between worlds unless you have physical appearances and mannerisms memorized for all the characters in various series - not necessary at all but fun Easter eggs all the same. Warbreaker is a good world but won't give you much insight into the Cosmere as a whole, besides having a different magic system. Several of its characters show up in later Stormlight Archives books, so it can be a treat to read it before SLA and see them show up. Big picture: a super-being called Adonalsium was shattered/killed and separated into 16 shards, each picked up by a mortal that became a deity in their own right and taking on some fragmentary aspect of Adonalsium. That's where you get Ruin, Preservation, Odium (Hatred), Cultivation, Honor, etc. These Shards then set up their own separate worlds using their powers and dictating the magic system by their natures. There's also Hoid, who has been showing up repeatedly and pursuing some other agenda, and appears in every Cosmere book. Odium seems to be in the process of killing the other Shards and Splintering their power which is understandably freaking some people out. Lastly, the universe is divided into three main realms: the cognitive, the spiritual, and the physical. This is only important for how it gives a common structure to how all the magic systems work and can theoretically interact in the future. As a basic start, the Cognitive realm is how most of the World Hoppers like Hoid get from Cosmere planet to planet without space ships.
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Dec 28, 2018 20:00
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NikkolasKing posted:So I read the Mistborn and Stormlight books and found them really good but the overarching mythos is kinda beyond me. Like, I gathered from the random snippets of dialogue between chapters that Odium used to just be some dude but nothing more than that. But apparently Odium is the same thing as Ruin and Preservation and there were a bunch of others, too. I've learned more from various posts online than these books which were really good but "self-contained" stories if you get my meaning. a lot of the #DeepLore is from brandon loving to answer questions from fans, but Arcanum Unbounded has Secret History, which includes the broad strokes of the crossover stuff Warbreaker is sort of a prequel for a minor character in stormlight, it just happened to be published earlier. Torrannor posted:It's possible that Sanderson expanded Kelsier's role when it became apparent that he was a fan favorite. But in Hero of Ages, somebody gave Spook the message he sent to Vin (don't trust anybody pierced by metal), and Spook thought it was the real Kelsier this time. Ruin very much wanted to know what kind of message it was, and used Marsh to intercept it. So it wasn't Ruin, but who else could it have been? A few things were intended to be kelsier from the start, then ended up not working with later metaphysics (for instance, Sazed feels like he hears a voice telling him that the rings he got shot with were metalminds), so ended up just being ambiguous thinking-to-oneself.
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Dec 28, 2018 20:01
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DarkHorse posted:Odium seems to be in the process of killing the other Shards and Splintering their power which is understandably freaking some people out. That's prob the most interesting part of cosmere lore to me, that the shards seem to be at war with each other
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Dec 28, 2018 20:16
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Tunicate posted:Warbreaker is sort of a prequel for a minor character in stormlight, it just happened to be published earlier. I wonder how minor that character ends up being. Also, which character are we talking about? Sword-nimi? I could see it play a major role going forward.
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Dec 28, 2018 20:23
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we also don't know who or what a lot of Shards are still, as there are 6 that remain completely unknown (apart from the occasional purposefully-obtuse hint from Brandon, like that one unknown shard's goal is to "hide and survive") plus no one is actually holding the power of devotion, dominion, or ambition - they're all dead or dead-ish, so far as we know ConfusedUs posted:A guy named Hoid appears in most Cosmere books (he's Wit in Stormlight) and is another worldhopper with an agenda of his own; any chapter with this guy touches on the Cosmere in some way. and hoid is definitely a contemporary and (former) friend of the eke out fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Dec 28, 2018 |
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Dec 28, 2018 20:25
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Torrannor posted:I wonder how minor that character ends up being. Also, which character are we talking about? Sword-nimi? I could see it play a major role going forward. It becomes pretty obvious once you read it. The ebook version of warbreaker is free from brandon's website, if you want to have a computer read it to you.
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Dec 28, 2018 20:26
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Torrannor posted:I wonder how minor that character ends up being. Also, which character are we talking about? Sword-nimi? I could see it play a major role going forward. There's nightblood the sword but also Zahel the sword instructor is Vasher from warbringer
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Dec 28, 2018 20:27
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Finished Skyward! It's good poo poo, guys. man, all the clues were there. Made for a really satisfying reveal. Hype for the next book coming out next year!
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Dec 28, 2018 20:33
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eke out posted:we also don't know who or what a lot of Shards are still, as there are 6 that remain completely unknown (apart from the occasional purposefully-obtuse hint from Brandon, like that one unknown shard's goal is to "hide and survive") My personal theory about Hoid is that he was smart enough to realize that taking a shard warped you to that shard's purpose, so he's instead pursing that power in a different way. We already know how ridiculous the power levels get when you combine two similar magic systems (Feruchemy + Allomancy). What happens when you combine a dozen different systems? Hoid's at least half way there, and this motivation fits his smug superiority, his ambitious nature, and the wariness that other worldhoppers have when talking about him.
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Dec 28, 2018 20:41
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Tunicate posted:It becomes pretty obvious once you read it. Yeah, I've read all Cosmere books (that are out). Only three people have more posts in this thread, I know my Sanderson! I was just reacting to the statement that "Warbreaker is sort of a prequel for a minor character in stormlight", when I can count three of them. And one of them likely not so minor, since (Nightblood is carried by one of the main characters, can probably permanently kill a Fused, and in general is one of the most powerful items in the whole cosmere. And his abilities got mostly revealed in Oathbringer, so there's no need to have read Warbreaker to understand the power of the sword. Which means Nightblood can play a major role in Stormlight. Vasher on the other hand is pretty cool to have in the Stormlight books, but he likely won't do a lot to stand out until Warbreaker 2 is released and we can learn what happens after he and Vivienna left the Hallandren. I hope there will be a cool reunion with Nightblood now that both are in Urithiru, but Warbreaker 2 being unreleased simply precludes us from learning more about his past. I could see him becoming more active in the second half of the Stormlight Archive, if Warbreaker 2 is out by then. Speaking of Vivienna, her stint as Azure was cool, but I'm not sure if we will even see her in the next two Stormlight books. Again, we need to wait for Warbreaker 2 to find out why she's hunting Vasher or Nightblood. I could see her catching up to Zahel and apprehending him/vanishing with him, to be seen again in Stormligh 6 or later, if Warbreaker 2 has been published by then. In any case, having a returned in Stormligh opens up cool possibilities for investiture shenanigans, and would be cool to see in order to learn more about the Cosmere in general. We also need to find out how the Five Scholars learned about Shardblades in the first place, did they travel to Roshar many centuries before Stormlight 1? Because Nightblood is after all patterned on said Shardblades. So I don't know how minor those Warbreaker characters will be for Stormlight. Since Nightblood can stand on his own in Stormlight without knowing Warbreaker at all, I'm pretty sure that he at least won't be so minor at all.
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Dec 28, 2018 20:42
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Thanks everybody for the replies. Secret History comes out on Audible in January so I'm gonna snatch that and AU up.eke out posted:we also don't know who or what a lot of Shards are still, as there are 6 that remain completely unknown (apart from the occasional purposefully-obtuse hint from Brandon, like that one unknown shard's goal is to "hide and survive") I mean, he refused that power but he says that Odium would destroy the entire planet if he knew Wit was there. (I'm gonna keep calling him Wit.) So he is clearly still powerful in his own right, I guess? I've heard Wit's goal is to travel around and gather together a fore of various peoples from various worlds to fight Odium. Is that why he's feared or is it personal power? So the Lord-Ruler with a "sliver" of Ruin's power was moving around the planet and stars and stuff and Odium, a being far stronger than the LR, can destroy the planet if he really wanted to. So...why doesn't he?
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Dec 28, 2018 20:44
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Whoops, on mobile, thought that was nikk posting
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Dec 28, 2018 20:44
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I would say given that Scadrial is protected by Harmony now it's not fully possible for Odium to do it that easily
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Dec 28, 2018 20:49
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NikkolasKing posted:So he is clearly still powerful in his own right, I guess? I've heard Wit's goal is to travel around and gather together a fore of various peoples from various worlds to fight Odium. Is that why he's feared or is it personal power? yeah no doubt, as ConfusedUs said, Hoid's amassing power at a level we really don't understand - we've only seen tiny glimpses of what he's capable of. also Sanderson loves the idea that different magics create unexpected synergies that're greater than the sum of their parts, and Hoid's getting beaucoup different magics in a way literally no one else in the universe has ever seen NikkolasKing posted:So the Lord-Ruler with a "sliver" of Ruin's power was moving around the planet and stars and stuff and Odium, a being far stronger than the LR, can destroy the planet if he really wanted to. So...why doesn't he? if you're asking about Odium, It's Complicated. it seems like the answer is something along the lines of: the more power a Shard exerts over a world, the more connected the Shard is to that world, and harder it is to extricate themself from it. and there's also the oathpact there also may be some larger metaphysical reason like, Odium can't embody his Shard's Intent if he just blows up planets and poo poo. he needs creatures to run around and have Bad Feelings and kill eachother, none of that happens if he just destroys planets
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Dec 28, 2018 20:53
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Big Bowie Bonanza posted:I would say given that Scadrial is protected by Harmony now it's not fully possible for Odium to do it that easily I think the reveal at the end of the latest Wax and Wayne book about the conspiracy being backed by "red-eyed" creatures is supposed to imply that Odium is actively trying to subvert Scadrial and Harmony. As for why he doesn't just blow up Roshar, I think Cultivation and the scraps of Honor left over prevent him from doing so. At least until he shatters them.
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Dec 28, 2018 20:53
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Sinner Sandwich posted:I think the reveal at the end of the latest Wax and Wayne book about the conspiracy being backed by "red-eyed" creatures is supposed to imply that Odium is actively trying to subvert Scadrial and Harmony. we got this bit confirmed through a word of brandon, the red isn't necessarily Odium, it's more broadly what happens when one shard's magic system is subverted by another. so with Scadrial, it's "Trell" coming in and messing about, who is almost-certainly the shard Autonomy (which fits with Paalm's general anti-authoritarian goals, even though Harmony is a relatively benevolent authoritarian)
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Dec 28, 2018 20:56
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Dude I've known for ages online did some absolutely baller bookends based off the allomantic symbol for Steel. Here's the reddit post (including Thingiverse links down in the comments if you wanna print your own) https://www.reddit.com/r/brandonsanderson/comments/aabrhn/finally_finished_allomantic_symbol_bookends/ And here's some imgur albums Finished pics: https://imgur.com/gallery/vpEykHU Assembly: https://imgur.com/a/4yixos2
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Dec 28, 2018 21:00
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Harmony mindwhammied Lessie until she betrayed the love of her life, then manipulated him into killing her after she correctly ascertained that Harmony wasn't as benevolent as he seemed. I expect him to be a final boss.
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Dec 28, 2018 21:01
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I find all the broader cosmere stuff fascinating, and love spending literal hours on the wiki just sitting and sifting through all the connections between books. But gently caress if I can find a single connection on my own without it being pointed out. Most of the time I can't even win the "spot Hoid" game if he's not using that name. I feel nothing but awe and gratitude for the people who put the puzzle pieces together for me to follow.
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Dec 28, 2018 21:01
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Tunicate posted:Harmony mindwhammied Lessie until she betrayed the love of her life, then manipulated him into killing her after she correctly ascertained that Harmony wasn't as benevolent as he seemed. I expect him to be a final boss. look, we've all made some mistakes..
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Dec 28, 2018 21:05
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eke out posted:yeah no doubt, as ConfusedUs said, Hoid's amassing power at a level we really don't understand - we've only seen tiny glimpses of what he's capable of. Yeah, Hoid has all sorts of weird poo poo at his disposal, from magic systems we've seen and from those we haven't. Check out this list: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Hoid#Abilities Dude could crush anyone who's not a full Shard, and Odium is scared of him, so maybe he could do that, too.
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Dec 28, 2018 21:07
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Hoid is also cursed to be a pacifist so he's mostly an unkillable rear end in a top hat.
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Dec 28, 2018 21:14
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ConfusedUs posted:Yeah, Hoid has all sorts of weird poo poo at his disposal, from magic systems we've seen and from those we haven't. True, though he is supernaturally prevented from harming people. This notably doesn't extend to cognitive shadows/ghosts. It remains to be seen if he can harm spren.
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Dec 28, 2018 21:23
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Thanks again everybody. One more quick question. Taravangian has been a favorite of mine ever since the reveal at the end of Way of Kings but it seems a lot of people say he's selling out to Odium. I was surprised to read this online after finishing Oathbringer since it's not at all my interpretation of what happened. It was very obvious to me that Transcendentally Brilliant Taravangian had foreseen Odium only appearing to him during his weakened state. Taravangain thinks this himself, I do believe. Furthermore, while he shows Odium most of the Diagram, he explicitly is grateful that Odium cannot see the part about Renarin. A theme of the books seemed to be that humans can break oaths but gods like Odium cannot. Taravangian can thus be pulling some giant ruse on Odium and not actually submitting to him.
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Dec 28, 2018 21:30
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I think it’s worth noting that Odium himself claims that his shard isn’t just “hatred”, but rather Passion and encompasses all strong emotion, which makes him a bit more interesting than being a god of evil or whatever. He was just a dick even before he took a shard. The source for that is, again, sodium trying to tempt Dalinar so how true it is isn’t clear.
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Dec 28, 2018 21:31
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NikkolasKing posted:So the Lord-Ruler with a "sliver" of Ruin's power was moving around the planet and stars and stuff and Odium, a being far stronger than the LR, can destroy the planet if he really wanted to. So...why doesn't he? Here's the thing the Lord Ruler didn't have a 'slither' of ruin, he had the Power of Preservation and was using to preserve Scadriel (albeit poorly at first) and was opposed by ruin at every turn. Odium is hatred and passion and he has already destroyed shards himself and multiple planets, but in Roshar he was opposed by two shards which seem pretty thematically opposed to him and bound him to Roshar.
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Dec 28, 2018 21:51
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Rumda posted:Here's the thing the Lord Ruler didn't have a 'slither' of ruin, he had the Power of Preservation and was using to preserve Scadriel (albeit poorly at first) and was opposed by ruin at every turn. It was Preservation's power at the Well? My bad. I've only gone through the books once 'cuz they're kinda long. I should go through them again though.
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Dec 28, 2018 21:59
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I finally forced myself to read Elantris and thankfully it wasn't awful....but it definitely wasn't great. The plot structure was a mess and the dialogue is just garbage. One dumb moment that stuck out was Raoden reading in a random book about an AonDor healing gone wrong, leaving a woman Hoed (for sure dude, the library of a dude not even interested in healing just so happens to have basically a medical journal article, written right before the fall of Elantris, in a world without the printing press to facilitate publishing something so mundane). And then later on, we learn that the wife from Dilaf's tragic backstory is that same woman! This is only one of several just-so coincidences in Elantris make the story worse, but I only bring it up because I saw the annotations for this--instead of Brandon reflecting on this negatively, he thinks it was totally coolquote:DILAF’S BACKSTORY I have no interest to hear from any of the characters of Elantris again, but I do hope he brings back the setting. There are interesting things he could do with the similarities between Dakhor and Hemalurgy (in so far as they relate to loving with souls to turn bodies into conduits for Investiture). Also I hope the Moon Sceptre from The Emperor's Soul comes back too--since it was apparently supposed to be a Rosetta Stone for Selish magic (stolen for Hoid), it has interesting possibilies for future selish magical technologies--if Scadrians are going to learn to travel the stars using the metallic arts, it would be interesting to see what the Selish can do with such a flexible and powerful magic once they discover the assembly language for programming the Dor. Slanderer fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Dec 28, 2018 |
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Dec 28, 2018 22:13
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ConfusedUs posted:Yeah, Hoid has all sorts of weird poo poo at his disposal, from magic systems we've seen and from those we haven't. Odium isn't scared of hoid. Hoid is scared of being noticed by odium because he'd be destroyed immediately and with extreme prejudice by odium.
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Dec 28, 2018 22:21
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NikkolasKing posted:It was Preservation's power at the Well? My bad. I've only gone through the books once 'cuz they're kinda long. I should go through them again though. Yeah the shard stuff is propaganda from LR to sell his god status, which is probably where you get that from.
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Dec 28, 2018 23:39
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Gotta avoid mixing up Brandon’s many S words: shards, splinters (spren snd seons, which are splinters too!) and slivers. He defines a sliver as someone who held the power of a shard and was expanded in the process. For Mistborn, this includes Rashek, Vin and Kelsier. It seems like a lovely name that actually doesn’t make sense given what we know about the cosmere now, but that’s how it is.
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Dec 29, 2018 09:44
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It comes from the Lord Ruler's title of Sliver of Infinity, which is a rather fitting description of somebody who held the power of a shard.
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Dec 29, 2018 09:47
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Torrannor posted:It comes from the Lord Ruler's title of Sliver of Infinity, which is a rather fitting description of somebody who held the power of a shard. It’s also bullshit, more part of his propaganda than an actual description.
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Dec 29, 2018 10:18
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CharlestheHammer posted:It’s also bullshit, more part of his propaganda than an actual description. Not really he really did have the power of a god but only once every thousand years. Even his temporal powers were far beyond everyone else
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Dec 29, 2018 12:08
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Rumda posted:Not really he really did have the power of a god but only once every thousand years. Even his temporal powers were far beyond everyone else Yeah but the shard thing was how his ministry was to portray him all the time. It was how he formed his Cult. It’s actually one of the more realistic moves Sanderson did for the type of government the LR used.
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Dec 29, 2018 15:50
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NikkolasKing posted:Thanks again everybody. One more quick question. Taravangian has been a favorite of mine ever since the reveal at the end of Way of Kings but it seems a lot of people say he's selling out to Odium. I was surprised to read this online after finishing Oathbringer since it's not at all my interpretation of what happened. Taravangian's inner monologue though makes it clear he'll sacrifice most of humanity so a little of it can be preserved, and is not trying to destroy Odium, just survive. While Cultivation may have some plans in that regard for him, Taravangian himself is totally willing to sell out. Rumda posted:Here's the thing the Lord Ruler didn't have a 'slither' of ruin, he had the Power of Preservation and was using to preserve Scadriel (albeit poorly at first) and was opposed by ruin at every turn. Yeah Odium seems to fear places that have multiple Shards on them because they can oppose him. The exception seems to be when he blew up Devotion and Dominion on Sel (Elantris and The Emperor's Soul planet) but I think he did that first, to punish them for doubling up in the first place, and probably as an ambush. Ruin and Preservation were thus probably warned after that and able to oppose Odium if he tried anything. After that, they united into Harmony which makes it even harder for him to stop them. Roshar also seems to have trapped Odium there from some kind of sacrifice on Honor's part. Slanderer posted:I finally forced myself to read Elantris and thankfully it wasn't awful....but it definitely wasn't great. The plot structure was a mess and the dialogue is just garbage. One dumb moment that stuck out was Raoden reading in a random book about an AonDor healing gone wrong, leaving a woman Hoed (for sure dude, the library of a dude not even interested in healing just so happens to have basically a medical journal article, written right before the fall of Elantris, in a world without the printing press to facilitate publishing something so mundane). And then later on, we learn that the wife from Dilaf's tragic backstory is that same woman! This is only one of several just-so coincidences in Elantris make the story worse, but I only bring it up because I saw the annotations for this--instead of Brandon reflecting on this negatively, he thinks it was totally cool Sel's system is really interesting. The Aon Dor, being the mixed splinters of Devotion and Dominion mean that each country gets its own magic system and it's based on the shape of its borders. So Elantrian magic is shaped like the city, bloodsealers like their country, the monks on theirs, and the Forgers on theirs. Each involve writing using symbols based on their geographic boundaries.
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Dec 29, 2018 18:46
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DarkHorse posted:Yeah Odium seems to fear places that have multiple Shards on them because they can oppose him. The exception seems to be when he blew up Devotion and Dominion on Sel (Elantris and The Emperor's Soul planet) but I think he did that first, to punish them for doubling up in the first place, and probably as an ambush. Ruin and Preservation were thus probably warned after that and able to oppose Odium if he tried anything. After that, they united into Harmony which makes it even harder for him to stop them. Apparently, Odium had help with Devotion and Dominion. At least that's what Brandon hinted at in one of the signings iirc. Also, I think he killed Ambition first. I'm also reasonably sure that Preservation betrayed Ruin very, very soon after they made the Scadrians, so it's hard to see those two shards putting up much of a fight. One was mindless, the other powerless. But I guess for that reason Odium saw that as a low threat and decided to kill them last? And lastly, apart from taking out Ambition, he only went to two shard systems. First to Sel, then to Roshar. I'm not sure how much he can fear two shard systems, when he thus far has ignored the single shard worlds like Nalthis or Taldain.
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Dec 29, 2018 19:30
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I think the implication was that he targeted them specifically for cooperating, and the only reason I can think of for targeting them is fearing they'd be able to stop him. But yeah I guess it's more ambiguous than I thought
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Dec 29, 2018 19:35
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The shards agreed to go their separate ways originally, so generally odium could get away with killing the ones who broke the deal without reprisal
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Dec 29, 2018 19:41
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Tunicate posted:The shards agreed to go their separate ways originally, so generally odium could get away with killing the ones who broke the deal without reprisal I wonder what the other shards think about Harmony. Is he breaching their deal just by existing? Is he fine for being a single shard now? Is he exempt because the pact predates him?
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Dec 29, 2018 19:46
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