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Elephant Parade posted:I know; should've been clearer about what I meant. What I was saying is that you could base an SRPG on 4e, but it'd require more than just, like, digitizing its mechanics the way Baldur's Gate did. You'd need to tone down the randomness (most notably increasing the hit rate, because missing in video games is geberakky super boring), among other things. Mario+Rabbids for the Switch is a lighter XCOM that simplifies a couple of things in a good way. Namely, the to-hit percentage is reduced to 3 types: 100% (sitting out in the open/flanked), 50% (hiding behind cover), and 0% (full cover). It doesn't bother with doing various percentages and just keeps it to that. It also focuses a bit more on comboing with abilities and movement shenanigans. Characters can slide into enemies as part of a move to do damage, jump on top of each other to reach high places or land on enemies, and moving into and out of pipes can greatly extend a character's effective movement. Naturally there's abilities and upgrades that alter these, such as Peach healing people in an area around where she lands, or Rabbid Mario's slide having a blast effect every time he slides into enemies. It'd honestly fit the more dynamic mechanics of 4e without too much work. Mike Danger posted:That actually brings me to another question: is the 4E Dark Sun campaign setting worth seeking out for someone who is Dark Sun-curious but has never touched the 2E stuff? Absolutely, yes. Dark Sun 4e dials back the plot of 2e Dark Sun to a point where things weren't incredibly stupid, and the fact that you can finally have non-divine healers in D&D means that the setting doesn't have to try and excuse having a Priest or Druid as a form of healing. It's also around the time where they finally fixed the monster math, so enemies aren't giant damage sponges but can also prove to be a serious threat. Despoiling magic is kind of not great, but you can't have everything.
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Dec 31, 2018 19:41
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Hot take: I like RTWP because it dramatically reduces the time you spend in fights that are already won.
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Dec 31, 2018 19:50
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Rip_Van_Winkle posted:Hot take: I like RTWP because it dramatically reduces the time you spend in fights that are already won. How about having a turn-based system with snappy and fast animations so that it doesn't take forever and putting in less trash fights instead?
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Dec 31, 2018 19:52
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Andrast posted:How about having a turn-based system with snappy and fast animations so that it doesn't take forever and putting in less trash fights instead?
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Dec 31, 2018 19:55
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:This drives me nuts. The most awesome choreographed attack animation sucks hard after you see it a dozen times. More games should take a note from fire emblem where you can either watch the animations normally, fast forward through or just turn them off
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Dec 31, 2018 19:56
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Rip_Van_Winkle posted:Hot take: I like RTWP because it dramatically reduces the time you spend in fights that are already won. Encounter design definitely needs to be tighter in turn based games to avoid this problem but I think it's doable. I prefer combat be fast and lethal but still have interesting problems to solve. Since I'm wishing I would also like a pony.
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Dec 31, 2018 20:01
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andrew smash posted:Encounter design definitely needs to be tighter in turn based games to avoid this problem but I think it's doable. I prefer combat be fast and lethal but still have interesting problems to solve. Fire Emblem isn't a pony but it is the former (depending on the game)
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Dec 31, 2018 20:03
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Andrast posted:How about having a turn-based system with snappy and fast animations so that it doesn't take forever and putting in less trash fights instead? As long as the turn-based system has a button that just lets the party AI take turns on their own, sure. Most of the time, turn-based systems require Doing Something, even if you're just going through the motions and have no chance of losing. If I've already won a fight, I want to be able to just let my dudes slap the stuff to death until the end-of-combat chime plays. Also on an extremely subjective note, I like playing CRPGs basically hands-off. If I can use a system like DA:O's or PoE 1s to "program" my dudes, I'm going to spend as little time giving them directions as possible. If there's a particularly tricky or gimmicky fight, quickload, tweak the AI, try again. Override the AI when necessary. I dunno, I just find it satisfying to build a system and then run that system against obstacles. It's like playing Infinifactory, but with elfs and swords. As for putting in less trash fights, sure, that's necessary if you're going to go in a turn-based direction, because if you had to play through every round of every fight in Baldur's Gate 2 it would take five times as long to complete the game. Additionally, that would require the rules the game is based on to be balanced in any reasonable way such that you couldn't just Cloudkill your way through half the game. Every fight can be a trash fight with a busted up rules engine like BG.
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Dec 31, 2018 20:04
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Yeah advance wars and fire emblem are great compared to most of them. The X-COM remakes involve, like, 10s of animations for each 1s of meaningful decision-making. Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup is the baseline for good combat speed imo.
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Dec 31, 2018 20:05
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Andrast posted:More games should take a note from fire emblem where you can either watch the animations normally, fast forward through or just turn them off Or like Earthbound, where you auto-win battles against low-level enemies and don't even go into the battle screen. Just a little message that says "you won!" and what rewards you get from it.
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Dec 31, 2018 21:02
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Slimnoid posted:Or like Earthbound, where you auto-win battles against low-level enemies and don't even go into the battle screen. Just a little message that says "you won!" and what rewards you get from it. I want to skip animations in difficult fights too!
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Dec 31, 2018 21:07
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Andrast posted:Fire Emblem isn't a pony but it is the former (depending on the game) it does, however, have ponies.
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Dec 31, 2018 21:38
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Andrast posted:I want to skip animations in difficult fights too! The fight with the Krogan warlord in Mass Effect 1 autosaves before the loading screen which leads to the boss fight, which opens with a cinematic and a dialogue. Death means going through all that over again. And over again. And over again. I'm against capital punishment, but...
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Dec 31, 2018 21:40
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LatwPIAT posted:The fight with the Krogan warlord in Mass Effect 1 autosaves before the loading screen which leads to the boss fight, which opens with a cinematic and a dialogue. Death means going through all that over again. The two trickiest fights in FFX (Seymour whichever-one's-at-Gagazet and Yunalesca) are also both after very long unskippable cutscenes. Fark that.
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Dec 31, 2018 21:51
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Pieces of Peace posted:Almost certainly the latter. FE could in theory support it, and it wouldn't be too hard of a mechanical shift - the gearing certainly works for taking base weapons and adding mods, and the gear/talents separation could reflect Warframe/Tenno powers pretty nicely; but it would basically require a full treatment of inventing balanced Warframes, probably as superpowerful unique armors with their own 3-5 special effects (depending how you want to translate their powers and passives), changing up the psionics from FE's fairly restricted themes of space warping/time warping/brain warping to the five disciplines of Tenno powers, and then figuring out the new enemy balance.
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Jan 1, 2019 02:39
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A PbtA game would probably be the easiest way to let every frame have their own unique powers
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Jan 1, 2019 03:20
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Mike Danger posted:That actually brings me to another question: is the 4E Dark Sun campaign setting worth seeking out for someone who is Dark Sun-curious but has never touched the 2E stuff? 4e Dark Sun captures the setting at a really good point, before the 2e supplement treadmill and novelization tie-ins took it completely off the rails, yet informed by those later developments where it is helpful instead of actively detrimental. Also as has already been mentioned, the math is really good for running 4e mechanics appropriately. Ran a great campaign using it, highly recommend.
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Jan 1, 2019 03:25
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RudeCat posted:A PbtA game would probably be the easiest way to let every frame have their own unique powers yeah but in terms of translating the gameplay mechanics of one game to another game of a different format, this is basically equivalent to just giving up
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Jan 1, 2019 03:29
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Lambo Trillrissian posted:4e Dark Sun captures the setting at a really good point, before the 2e supplement treadmill and novelization tie-ins took it completely off the rails, yet informed by those later developments where it is helpful instead of actively detrimental. Also as has already been mentioned, the math is really good for running 4e mechanics appropriately. Ran a great campaign using it, highly recommend. Also 4e's heavy emphasis on refluffing lets you play divine characters as something else. Or engage with arcane defiling as little or as much as you want. Cause you can be a cackling sith lord wizard killing all the small animals around you, or you can be a preserver wizard. Or you can be a "Psion"(Winks so large and slowly it's visible from space).
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Jan 1, 2019 03:31
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One of my old high school buddies was incensed that 4e Dark Sun existed at all because it didn't have the exact Preserver/Defiler mechanics that 2e did, apparently they were one of the few things he actively liked about D&D at all.
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Jan 1, 2019 03:34
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Thanks for the feedback everyone, I'm gonna pick up a copy on Amazon when I can (and probably replace my old Eberron book as well)
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Jan 1, 2019 04:46
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Nessus posted:Can you think of a system that CAN approximate Tenno bullshit or elite boss powers? A question I have long pondered. I have a couple of possible ideas that I haven't actually tried myself or technically read the books all the way through - Remnants is an Iron Age/fallen empire setting mecha game, with simplistic mecha that have a couple gimmicks. Double Cross is probably one of the best superhero RPGs out there and Tenno are basically murder-superheroes. Some kind of Godbound + Stars Without Number combo might also get you to it. In my mind you need something fast, powerful, and fluid in gameplay, emphasizing your ability to just wreck hundreds of lesser enemies, but then be challenged by bosses. Something with a good mook system but not too much tactical complexity. You could probably start with a PBTA hack but you'd want to have some idea what your gameplay cycle is going to be - does it emphasize inevitable betrayal between Tenno, being individually powerful but only able to affect the balance of power between massive and kinda jerk-rear end factions? Warframe has a couple of thematic conflicts that could be expanded into a game conflict but without picking a serious theme and some kind of cyclical element, I find PBTA hacks tend to be haphazard and confused.
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Jan 1, 2019 04:55
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Double Cross neatly handles the insane weirdness of most Tenno powers...but it is also annoyingly field and system mastery to deal with.
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Jan 1, 2019 05:11
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Pieces of Peace posted:A question I have long pondered. I have a couple of possible ideas that I haven't actually tried myself or technically read the books all the way through - Remnants is an Iron Age/fallen empire setting mecha game, with simplistic mecha that have a couple gimmicks. Double Cross is probably one of the best superhero RPGs out there and Tenno are basically murder-superheroes. Some kind of Godbound + Stars Without Number combo might also get you to it. In my mind you need something fast, powerful, and fluid in gameplay, emphasizing your ability to just wreck hundreds of lesser enemies, but then be challenged by bosses. Something with a good mook system but not too much tactical complexity. You could probably start with a PBTA hack but you'd want to have some idea what your gameplay cycle is going to be - does it emphasize inevitable betrayal between Tenno, being individually powerful but only able to affect the balance of power between massive and kinda jerk-rear end factions? Warframe has a couple of thematic conflicts that could be expanded into a game conflict but without picking a serious theme and some kind of cyclical element, I find PBTA hacks tend to be haphazard and confused. Needs a mechanic where sometimes you have to play alone even though it shows three open squads goddamnit!
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Jan 1, 2019 05:12
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Mors Rattus posted:Double Cross neatly handles the insane weirdness of most Tenno powers...but it is also annoyingly field and system mastery to deal with. It's also much more built for boss fights rather than 'crushing eight million Corpus grunts'.
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Jan 1, 2019 05:12
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Night10194 posted:It's also much more built for boss fights rather than 'crushing eight million Corpus grunts'.
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Jan 1, 2019 06:22
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If you wanted you could just narrate that activating Warding is your Mesa hitting 4 and then everything that doesn't have invulnerability phases evaporating, actually.
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Jan 1, 2019 06:26
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NGDBSS posted:Got a link for that? It doesn't surprise me, but having a source in my back pocket wouldn't hurt. Just face to face convos, sorry.
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Jan 1, 2019 08:46
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theironjef posted:One of my old high school buddies was incensed that 4e Dark Sun existed at all because it didn't have the exact Preserver/Defiler mechanics that 2e did, apparently they were one of the few things he actively liked about D&D at all. How did 2e handle the mechanic?
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Jan 1, 2019 08:57
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Andrast posted:How did 2e handle the mechanic? When you're a defiler and you cast a spell, all vegetation within 1-30 yards of you turns to ash. Radius depends on spell level and terrain type. There's a table. If you keep casting from the same location, the ash circle grows. You figure out how big the circle is by taking the circle of the biggest spell cast and adding 1 yard radius per other spell. I think creatures in the circle get an init penalty. Plus there's something about trees of life that I can't remember and isn't that likely to come up for PCs from memory. Preservers... don't do that. But they advance in level slower. There's roleplay stuff too, but that's the mechanic. It's a no-dumber-than-usual 2nd ed implementation of a very cool thematic idea, but I wouldn't have thought it was anything to get excited about. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 10:24 on Jan 1, 2019 |
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Jan 1, 2019 10:18
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AlphaDog posted:When you're a defiler and you cast a spell, all vegetation within 1-30 yards of you turns to ash. Radius depends on spell level and terrain type. There's a table. If you keep casting from the same location, the ash circle grows. You figure out how big the circle is by taking the circle of the biggest spell cast and adding 1 yard radius per other spell. I think creatures in the circle get an init penalty. Plus there's something about trees of life that I can't remember and isn't that likely to come up for PCs from memory. This is correct. The Initiative penalty is equal to the spell level, due to the pain defiling inflicts on those in the area. Trees of life are…weird. They're functionally normal trees for most people; it's not like they create an oasis on their own or anything. They're created by a level 8 wizard spell. They give once per day extra uses of three divination spells plus heal to druids and clerics "in contact" with them. And they allow defilers within 100 yards to drain the tree's life force instead of defiling the area immediately around them when they cast spells. It doesn't super-charge the spell or anything, it's just an alternative way of killing the world with your magic. They regenerate really good, so it's possible for one or two defilers to avoid turning everything around the tree into ash, but each one can only take up to 10 levels worth of defiler spell use without dying, so it really limits any defiler trying to tone themselves down. Trees of life are in the 4e Dark Sun Creature Catalog (and there's a ritual to create them in the Campaign book). While their intrinsic helpful properties are more interesting, though thematically similar, their tie-in to defiling magic is still kind of lackluster (much like 4e defiling in general). You can divert the damage you'd do to your companions to the tree if you're within 5 squares, and it's vulnerable 10 to necrotic damage. But just like 2nd edition it regenerates pretty fast, and now it has 500 hit points and defiling only works with dailies so it's way less likely to die. quote:There's roleplay stuff too, but that's the mechanic. It's a no-dumber-than-usual 2nd ed implementation of a very cool thematic idea, but I wouldn't have thought it was anything to get excited about. Yeah, they're supposed to be centers of life and livelihood, "amongst groves" and poo poo, but in 2E they don't do anything for anyone unless you're a druid or cleric, and even then a few divination spells and heal once per day isn't going to turn out a thriving community. In 4E they boost everyone's healing within an area, including giving an extra healing surge if you long rest there, which implies some diegetic life-giving, so it makes a lot more sense why they would become hubs. That Old Tree fucked around with this message at 11:28 on Jan 1, 2019 |
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Jan 1, 2019 10:43
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I always thought dark sun should have made arcane magic plot-only because the preserver/defiler thing is a lovely way to handle it
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Jan 1, 2019 14:05
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Some kind of fusion of Godbound and Stars Without Number would probably handle Warframe the best, e;fb
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Jan 1, 2019 15:12
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AlphaDog posted:There's roleplay stuff too, but that's the mechanic. It's a no-dumber-than-usual 2nd ed implementation of a very cool thematic idea, but I wouldn't have thought it was anything to get excited about.
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Jan 1, 2019 15:20
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Warthur posted:Isn't the entire backstory of the game based on the excessive use of defiler magic destroying the ecosystem? Depends on which version of the setting you want to go with. Defiler magic is one option. Another one is halflings being the original master race whose genetic engineering and terraforming projects went wrong. There is a reason people don't like the later developments of 2e DS as much.
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Jan 1, 2019 15:28
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Warthur posted:Isn't the entire backstory of the game based on the excessive use of defiler magic destroying the ecosystem? It is, but the mechanics of how defiling works are based entirely in an attempt to limit the ungodly power of 2e casters, which wasn't necessary for 4e. Preservers (all PCs, essentially) had to spend extra rounds casting their spells, taking them down to a level where the non-casters didn't feel quite so lovely. In 4e, that would have just made casters unplayable, so it was changed to an incentive to defile, instead of a penalty to preserve.
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Jan 1, 2019 15:43
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Yeah, a lot of the weird specifics in 2e Dark Sun were put in place as a way to reign in casters and also incentivize people to play with (and buy) the new Psionics books. If memory serves.
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Jan 1, 2019 15:50
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AlphaDog posted:There's roleplay stuff too, but that's the mechanic. It's a no-dumber-than-usual 2nd ed implementation of a very cool thematic idea, but I wouldn't have thought it was anything to get excited about. Yeah, I was real surprised to get such a vociferous response about it. He really liked the thematics of having to choose between lovely spellcasting and destroying the world, I guess.
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Jan 1, 2019 16:06
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And here I thought it was because of magical nuclear war. Or maybe it was that too.
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Jan 1, 2019 18:26
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Something that struck me about Athas in the earlier stuff is that it's completely isolated from the other D&D realms. I inferred that the twist would be that the Dark Sun was a post-apocalyptic setting, taking place long after the other settings had run their courses. Then instead of finding a Forgotten Realms Statue of Liberty in a forbidden zone, they backed off of it and allowed some interaction.
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Jan 1, 2019 19:36
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