|
BrandorKP posted:Except when they sell that right, which they do. Big companies will buy up shelf space to push smaller competition to crappier spots, or off the shelves entirely. Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Go to any restaurant in America from 1900 to 2018 and count how many offer both Pepsi and Coke products. It will be 0 and it is not because the restaurant owners are Pepsi fans or think Sprite is better than Mountain Dew. Another similar example is: why do you think that Marlboro and Camel have a billion product variations? It ain't because they need all those variations to satisfy smokers, it's because they want to dominate the "power walls" at retail and they need a lot of SKUs to do that. Even if some of those varieties barely sell, having an entire shelf of Marlboro reinforces the brand overall, and limits the ability of competitors to be seen. They finally banned tobacco displays in Canada a while back, and now I assume they're doing the same thing with the "plain" price lists that show product availability. Depending on the store you go to, one company's brands will be displayed more prominently than another's. I find it hard to believe money doesn't change hands for such an arrangement.
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2018 18:39
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 17, 2024 06:11 |
|
|
I think folks are also ignoring the power of vertical integration.
|
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2018 19:37
|
|
|
The trend has been away from vertical integration in supply chains towards horizontal.
|
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2018 19:43
|
|
|
Solkanar512 posted:I think folks are also ignoring the power of vertical integration. What about it? That is a thing that exists, but not anything that exists in any special way for amazon that it doesn't for anyone else.
|
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2018 20:37
|
|
|
So it is almost 2019, and I think the thread title needs an update. My vote is on: Sears Dead. So What? But I don't know if that fits, just yet.
|
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2018 21:02
|
|
|
Hand Row posted:Also Amazon in its history has used its tactics that in the end benefit customer. Basically they used their market power to offer benefits to a consumer that make it tough/expensive for other companies to match. Great. So far I haven’t seen any contrary behavior to that.
|
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2018 21:17
|
|
|
Amazon loving sucks now and ironically enough I really only use it for ordering books and occasionally board games because I don't like the meta game of cross referencing product serial numbers to make sure I'm not getting ripped off eBay style by their lovely "marketplace." So uh, congrats on Amazon for primarily going back to being a book seller for me.
|
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2018 22:15
|
|
|
Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Every grocery store, restaurant, and clothing store in America does this and has done it for decades. Did your mother call you up out of the basement to make you take out the trash or something, and then you simply forgot to read the rest of my post before writing this? The issue isn't that they have white label products alongside brand-name products, the issue is that most of the time you're shown a page full of Amazon products before you even see any alternatives. There is a world of difference between having multiple shelf levels that all contain different products vs a full page of Amazon products appearing before you see anything else. The accurate analogy would be a store placing their brand in front of others on the same shelf, which just doesn't happen
|
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2018 23:26
|
|
|
nepetaMisekiryoiki posted:It is very interested, how supposed progressives shout "shill" as soon as any consideration of retail exists. Tell me sir, what is the way you think store is supposed to operate? I want it to be clear that I'm not making GBS threads on you just because you're ESL, but you need to work on your English before you say things like this. Liquid Communism is accusing you of defending grey-at-best corporate practices, something that any good progressive should do. I'm only bringing this up because there have been other times where you've misdefined a term and then, based on that, accused someone of acting contrary to their stated principles.
|
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2018 23:38
|
|
|
QuarkJets posted:I want it to be clear that I'm not making GBS threads on you just because you're ESL, but you need to work on your English before you say things like this. Liquid Communism is accusing you of defending grey-at-best corporate practices, something that any good progressive should do. I understand accusation, accusation makes no sense. There is nothing bad about house brand or putting them in pride of place. That is expected part of the retail business that a store may do so. There is whole store chains run on concept of only allow small amount of outside product at all. QuarkJets posted:Did your mother call you up out of the basement to make you take out the trash or something, and then you simply forgot to read the rest of my post before writing this? The issue isn't that they have white label products alongside brand-name products, the issue is that most of the time you're shown a page full of Amazon products before you even see any alternatives. There is a world of difference between having multiple shelf levels that all contain different products vs a full page of Amazon products appearing before you see anything else. The accurate analogy would be a store placing their brand in front of others on the same shelf, which just doesn't happen Why do you not show this, when I tried to get this to come up I could not get it. In fact of some products, even other companies were ahead when Amazon made their own.
|
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2018 23:56
|
|
|
QuarkJets posted:I want it to be clear that I'm not making GBS threads on you just because you're ESL, but you need to work on your English before you say things like this. Liquid Communism is accusing you of defending grey-at-best corporate practices, something that any good progressive should do. I noticed this as well but I didn't want to come across as an arse. nepeta once said that (s)he lives in Marseille and posted a screenshot from Amazon.fr, so I'm going to assume that his or her first language is French. I speak French nepeta and, while we disagree on a lot of things, if I can be of any help to you in regards to your self-expression, let me know. You're very brave to post on this anglophone-dominated forum and you deserve a chance to make yourself heard. Des fois nous ne nous entendons pas mais, s'il y a quelque service que je peux te fournir, fais-le-moi savoir si ça te dérange pas.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2019 00:06
|
|
|
nepetaMisekiryoiki posted:I understand accusation, accusation makes no sense. There is nothing bad about house brand or putting them in pride of place. That is expected part of the retail business that a store may do so. There is whole store chains run on concept of only allow small amount of outside product at all. My point to you is that it's not out of character for a progressive to criticize corporate practices, even when those practices are currently considered normal. In fact, when we live in as much of a pro-corporate society as we do, it's to be expected that a progressive would criticize some parts of the status quo. nepetaMisekiryoiki posted:Why do you not show this, when I tried to get this to come up I could not get it. In fact of some products, even other companies were ahead when Amazon made their own. I did show that. You even quoted the post where I showed it, remember? I recall that you weren't able to reproduce the results, probably due to some combination of geography and browser settings. And there was speculation that I didn't see the sponsored ads because I have adblock; this does not change the fact that Amazon gives the most favorable space to their own products, to the exclusion of anyone who's not willing to pay. In retail it's normal to pay for eye-favorable shelf space, but there's a world of difference between having your product be on a less-favorable shelf vs having your product not even in the consumer's view without them expending effort. QuarkJets posted:That's probably because France (or the EU) has laws enforcing fair promotion practices that the United States doesn't have; that's what you get for browsing amazon.fr. Here's what it looks like from the .com address, browsing on a computer located in Amurrica QuarkJets fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Jan 1, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2019 00:15
|
|
|
QuarkJets posted:The accurate analogy would be a store placing their brand in front of others on the same shelf, which just doesn't happen They just sell that right to other brands. It does happen, just they make more money selling the right to do it, than doing it themselves.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2019 00:15
|
|
|
BrandorKP posted:They just sell that right to other brands. It does happen, just they make more money selling the right to do it, than doing it themselves. I have never, ever seen a product deliberately hidden behind another product on the shelf. How does that even work? Are there two price labels beneath the same stack of products, and you're expected to dig in order to get the other product?
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2019 00:21
|
|
|
QuarkJets posted:Did your mother call you up out of the basement to make you take out the trash or something, and then you simply forgot to read the rest of my post before writing this? The issue isn't that they have white label products alongside brand-name products, the issue is that most of the time you're shown a page full of Amazon products before you even see any alternatives. There is a world of difference between having multiple shelf levels that all contain different products vs a full page of Amazon products appearing before you see anything else. The accurate analogy would be a store placing their brand in front of others on the same shelf, which just doesn't happen I'm still pretty unclear what bad thing is supposed to happen even if amazon threw out all other products and only sold amazon products entirely. This still seems fundamentally a worry based on some near future where amazon is going to be the only store. Like I guess you might be giving business advice to amazon and maybe you are worried their sales numbers would go down if they got bad or something but without a monopoly or near monopoly them being really bad in the future just means people won't shop there as much.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2019 00:28
|
|
|
I literally think oocc does not understand the concept of a market.glowing-fish posted:So it is almost 2019, and I think the thread title needs an update. The Retail Collapse of 2019: Sears Arrears Fears The Retail Collapse of 2019: Would you like the extended warranty? The Retail Collapse of 2019: All those moments lost in time, like Sears in rain. The Retail Collapse of 2019: Prime cuts of Bezos beefs The Retail Collapse of 2019: Diagonally integrate your supply Bain The Retail Collapse of 2019: Lambert and Bernie are Gay Married The Retail Collapse of 2019: tbf you need a high IQ to understand Brick and Mortar The Retail Collapse of 2019: From his lair deep within the former textile museum... The Retail Collapse of 2017-9: Wow this is taking awhile Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Jan 1, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2019 00:40
|
|
QuarkJets posted:I have never, ever seen a product deliberately hidden behind another product on the shelf. How does that even work? Are there two price labels beneath the same stack of products, and you're expected to dig in order to get the other product? If someone goes on Amazon and searches "batteries" or "yoga mat" they are probably aware other companies besides Amazon Basics sell these items. If they initially only see internal or promoted products they will generally understand they can scroll down or go to the next page for other options. This is no different than Costco placing Kirkland products on higher shelves or the end of aisles such that they're seen first.
|
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2019 00:43
|
|
|
QuarkJets posted:I have never, ever seen a product deliberately hidden behind another product on the shelf. How does that even work? Are there two price labels beneath the same stack of products, and you're expected to dig in order to get the other product? Height and placement. It's not literally behind another product. It might be literally be excluding other products from being on the shelves at all. They sell the desirable places, eye height and children's eye height. The store might not even do the shelf stocking. Nabisco will do their own stocking for example, my dad did that as a second job for a while.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2019 00:44
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:I literally think oocc does not understand the concept of a market. How about "Tears for Sears - Eddie Lampert Wants to Rule the World" and, when JCP goes under and they liquidate its assets for cents on the dollar "In for a Penney, sold for a pound"
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2019 00:48
|
|
|
The Retail Collapse of 2019: Tears for Sears
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2019 00:51
|
|
|
The Retail Collapse of 2019: Profit? No, Money Down!
Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 01:48 on Jan 1, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2019 01:00
|
|
|
sitchensis posted:The Retail Collapse of 2019: Tears for Sears
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2019 01:01
|
|
|
sitchensis posted:The Retail Collapse of 2019: Tears for Sears This one!
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2019 01:03
|
|
|
BrandorKP posted:Height and placement. It's not literally behind another product. It might be literally be excluding other products from being on the shelves at all. They sell the desirable places, eye height and children's eye height. The store might not even do the shelf stocking. Nabisco will do their own stocking for example, my dad did that as a second job for a while. Yeah this is behavior I see on Amazon. Varying levels of straight ad versus Amazon self-promotion versus category that has no promoted product occasionally.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2019 01:08
|
|
|
I dont like amazon, but there are stores that only sell their own products at all out in meat space, like Trader Joes. That said I don't really use amazon or order a lot of physical goods online, so maybe that is the difference.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2019 01:34
|
|
|
BrandorKP posted:Height and placement. It's not literally behind another product. It might be literally be excluding other products from being on the shelves at all. They sell the desirable places, eye height and children's eye height. The store might not even do the shelf stocking. Nabisco will do their own stocking for example, my dad did that as a second job for a while. Right, so you disagreed based on a misreading of what I wrote. Okay then
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2019 04:29
|
|
|
sitchensis posted:The Retail Collapse of 2019: Tears for Sears This is good
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2019 04:29
|
|
|
Killer-of-Lawyers posted:I dont like amazon, but there are stores that only sell their own products at all out in meat space, like Trader Joes. And that's just fine. The immoral thing would be Trader Joe's selling other products and then using that sales data to create and sell their own, identical products while hiding the originals in a box labeled "ROTTEN FRUIT".
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2019 04:35
|
|
|
Killer-of-Lawyers posted:I dont like amazon, but there are stores that only sell their own products at all out in meat space, like Trader Joes. TJ's definitely sells products they don't make and aren't exclusive. Basically all of their wine and beer.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2019 04:50
|
|
|
QuarkJets posted:Right, so you disagreed based on a misreading of what I wrote. Okay then Nah just taking about the things actual retailers do and by implication that amazon's practices merely are extensions of already occurring business practices. It's a difference of degree and not a difference of kind. Does it upset you as much when Cambells soup does it? They push all the other soups off the desirable shelving, and they limit the selection of alternatives by doing this. Edit: now a new thing is that this is jumping segments, out of grocery and into other areas.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2019 04:54
|
|
QuarkJets posted:And that's just fine. The immoral thing would be Trader Joe's selling other products and then using that sales data to create and sell their own, identical products while hiding the originals in a box labeled "ROTTEN FRUIT". Do you think there's not a single employee at Costco that's tasked with price elasticity analysis or just determining the frequency of common words in online reviews/surveys for input into Kirkland marketing strategy, pricing, placement timing, so on? Are there any juicy stories of Amazon deceptively altering placement or description or rating star count? You don't need to think Amazon Is Good, but they're largely just doing what every other company does better and on a larger scale in specific areas of marketing or advertising.
|
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2019 05:24
|
|
|
QuarkJets posted:And that's just fine. The immoral thing would be Trader Joe's selling other products and then using that sales data to create and sell their own, identical products while hiding the originals in a box labeled "ROTTEN FRUIT". Yep. Also, and key to Amazon's issue, advertising themselves as the cheap and easy place to find the name brand goods consumers want, to the point of running subscription services to refill them. Combining that with using search and sales metrics on the marketplace to target production of house brands and aggressively refusing to police knockoff skus in a way that hurts consumer confidence in competing brands they carry, and it is deeply poor business ethics.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2019 05:27
|
|
|
KingNastidon posted:Are there any juicy stories of Amazon deceptively altering placement or description or rating star count? You don't need to think Amazon Is Good, but they're largely just doing what every other company does better and on a larger scale in specific areas of marketing or advertising. They generally don't alter them themselves, just refuse to police obviously automated/paid reviews that exist to game the search algorithm.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2019 05:28
|
|
|
BrandorKP posted:Nah just taking about the things actual retailers do and by implication that amazon's practices merely are extensions of already occurring business practices. It's a difference of degree and not a difference of kind. Does it upset you as much when Cambells soup does it? They push all the other soups off the desirable shelving, and they limit the selection of alternatives by doing this. Ah, so you don't understand that there's a difference between what Amazon is doing versus what other retailers do, not merely in degree but also in kind. Okay then
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2019 06:15
|
|
|
KingNastidon posted:Do you think there's not a single employee at Costco that's tasked with price elasticity analysis or just determining the frequency of common words in online reviews/surveys for input into Kirkland marketing strategy, pricing, placement timing, so on? The Kirtland brand isn't a separate production line for popular products, it's literally just a different label slapped onto existing products. For instance Costco isn't producing their own tequila, Patron makes the tequila and puts it into bottles with a Kirtland label. The idea here isn't to steal sales, the brand is meant to be associated with good value, so a deal is worked out with producers of popular products in order to assure this. I'd be totally fine with Amazon doing that e: This is an example of how Amazon should be doing business. Thank you for bringing it up QuarkJets fucked around with this message at 06:34 on Jan 1, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2019 06:20
|
|
|
KingNastidon posted:Are there any juicy stories of Amazon deceptively altering placement or description or rating star count? You don't need to think Amazon Is Good, but they're largely just doing what every other company does better and on a larger scale in specific areas of marketing or advertising. This is such a stupid argument. "other companies are equally lovely, therefore it's okay". Just think about how stupid that is for a second. Amazon is dangerous because they have market setting power. The market isn't particularly large, but it's growing every year, at the expense of more traditional retailers. Before they can abuse monopoly power there should be regulatory oversight. Coporations exist to gently caress people over basically. They will if they are allowed to. For capitalism to work the government has to regulate companies.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2019 06:34
|
|
|
pseudanonymous posted:This is such a stupid argument. "other companies are equally lovely, therefore it's okay". Just think about how stupid that is for a second. It's important to check if something is some new evil that is bringing a brand new age of darkness or just a thing companies of that relative size always do and are currently doing already. Like, "store brands" is apparently not ushered in the apocalypse yet and probably isn't going to if amazon does it. Walmart is the current biggest retailer and sams choice is not a particularly influential brand no matter how much they dominate whole sections of the market.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2019 06:38
|
|
|
QuarkJets posted:And that's just fine. The immoral thing would be Trader Joe's selling other products and then using that sales data to create and sell their own, identical products while hiding the originals in a box labeled "ROTTEN FRUIT". Good thing that Trader Joe's is an eclectic boutique grocery instead of being part of some gigantic international grocery conglomerate taking in some 50 billion euros of revenue
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2019 06:51
|
|
|
QuarkJets posted:Ah, so you don't understand that there's a difference between what Amazon is doing versus what other retailers do, not merely in degree but also in kind. Okay then Oh no, I understand that's what you're saying, you're just wrong. The thing that's new about amazon is the combination of the relationship between tech and traditional businesses into one thing. All the other poo poo is just a business being a business, which can be pretty lovely.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2019 06:51
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 17, 2024 06:11 |
|
|
Owlofcreamcheese posted:It's important to check if something is some new evil that is bringing a brand new age of darkness or just a thing companies of that relative size always do and are currently doing already. Like, "store brands" is apparently not ushered in the apocalypse yet and probably isn't going to if amazon does it. Walmart is the current biggest retailer and sams choice is not a particularly influential brand no matter how much they dominate whole sections of the market. But you're referencing a thing that no one in this thread has complained about. You keep saying that that's the issue, but it really isn't. I don't know what mental block is preventing you from realizing that Amazon is not just another retailer. Remember how Microsoft got sued by the United States in the early 2000s for winning the browser wars? They didn't have a monopoly over x86 processors or internet browsers (and their revenue sure as gently caress didn't make up a significant fraction of all retail since that's a useless thing that keeps getting trotted out in this thread), but they were still engaging in anticompetitive practices to the detriment of consumers. This isn't fine for any corporation, but their powerful market position is what brought the attention of the justice system, and it was why something had to be done. Bob's Discount Operating Systems could have been doing the same thing but no prosecutor is going to try to bust them under antitrust law. Anyway, Microsoft eventually settled and were ordered to play nice with 3rd party software developers; almost two decades later, what was once "Micro$oft" has, over time, grown and matured into a company that's actually on pretty friendly terms with not just 3rd party developers but also the open source community. Part of this is due to a shift in corporate culture, part of it is due to the knowledge that they'll lose a bunch of money defending themselves from the US Justice System if they go back to their old ways. The moral of the story is that corporations will always look out only for their bottom line, and the only way to make them work for the consumer is to make that beneficial to their bottom line. This is why antitrust laws exist. Returning to your post, "some new evil" is actually an atrociously idiotic metric by which to judge whether something is bad and it's embarrassing that you'd even seriously make that argument. Surely you can think of at least one example where the status quo is already a lovely-enough situation that needs to change for the better, like come on.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2019 07:01
|
|