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Yeah the only major differences between the orders by the end of the Republic is 1) patricians get to be even snobbier and 2) plebs get access to an unusual kind of (relatively) populistic and executive power through the tribunate that is off limits to the patricians. And in the early empire the important republican patricians basically all got mulched by attrition and successive purges anyway, anyone called a patrician post Julio-Claudians (and some under them) is basically enjoying a meaningless imperially gifted dignity.
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Dec 28, 2018 02:25
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The largest by far group of romans were neither patrician nor pleb right?
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Dec 28, 2018 02:38
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:The largest by far group of romans were neither patrician nor pleb right? Yes, proletarii, everyone who doesn’t hold land and its accompanying significant income.
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Dec 28, 2018 02:55
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skasion posted:Yes, proletarii, everyone who doesn’t hold land and its accompanying significant income. Well, the proletarii were plebeians. A plebeian is just any Roman who isn't a patrician. Proletarii, by definition, had property worth less than 11,000 asses, which meant they didn't have enough money to vote. The word means "person who has kids", because, as far as the Romans were concerned, that was all they were good for. Below them, you had the capite censi, the ones "counted by head", because they didn't have any property to declare to the censors. BTW, here were the privileges of a patrician in the late Republic, if you're curious. 1. He could be a Salli 2. He could be a flamen 3. He could be the Rex Saeclorum 4. She could marry a flamen I think Sulla also brought back a law restricting the sex suffriga in the Centurate Assembly to patricians. Patricians were also, by virtue of their patrician status, nobiles, which meant that they could stand for consul a year early. (Plebeians whose ancestors were consuls were also nobiles.)
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Dec 28, 2018 05:21
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skasion posted:Yes, proletarii, everyone who doesn’t hold land and its accompanying significant income. Huh. So, going by Wikipedia, Patricians were kind of like Medieval European nobility, a special heritable class that wasn't necessarily tied to wealth, supposedly tracing ancestry back to the founding 100 families of Rome. And the division between Plebians and Proletarians was monetary: Plebes owned property, Proles owned little to nothing, to the point that in the census the lines for their property usually only listed their children's names. Basically, their only value to the state was their ability to have children and populate the colonies. Meanwhile Plebes had a duty to perform military service and had certain roles available only for them relative to the Patricians, like one of the two consuls, but over the centuries they also gradually picked up all the rights of Patricians, and most of the Patrician families died out. Then the reforms of Marius in 107 BC did away with the military ban on Proletarii (because the farm-owning families had lost so much manpower in the recent wars, risking the food production of the Republic), making them the backbone of the legions thereafter. Is that about right?
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Dec 28, 2018 07:26
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Epicurius posted:. Proletarii, by definition, had property worth less than 11,000 asses, drat the Romans really were rear end-men.
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Dec 28, 2018 08:58
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With all the debasing of asses going on 11,000 would not have lasted you all that long
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Dec 28, 2018 12:33
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Back in the beginning days of the Roman Republic, all the citizenry were divvied up into tribes, and each tribe was either pleb or patrician. the plebs were on the bottom and the patricians were on the top. But there was a degree of income mobility in the Republic (and also a bunch of incidents where all the plebs rose up to get more rights for them incorporated into the system), even moreso during Rome's days of conquest when individuals could get rich off of the new wealth they had access to. And so in the 500 years that the Republic persisted, some plebs got wealthy and some patricians hit bad times, and a whole wave of people came to live in Rome that weren't from any of the ancient tribes that were designated either at the beginning of the Republic, and there where further social distinctions of slave, freedmen and citizen/noncitizen. Rome had a separate class system as well that was more just income tax brackets, and that wasn't based on ancient tribal distinction, just on how much property you had. I think technically you could be both a pleb and a prole at the same time, though being one did not necessarily make you the other. SlothfulCobra fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Dec 28, 2018 |
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Dec 28, 2018 18:24
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Libluini posted:That's how bad things are now: The Pope was like "Peace on Earth, also by the way you are all consume-driven shitheads, please dial the capitalism a bit back, tia"  "Peace on Earth, also by the way you are all consume-driven shitheads, please dial the capitalism a bit back, tia"Posted from my giant fortress fullof treasure Seriously, very little could lower my opinion of the church more than having visited the Vatican.
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Dec 29, 2018 00:43
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Strategic Tea posted:
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Dec 29, 2018 00:56
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HEY GUNS posted:none of that poo poo belongs to him. he's basically living in a series of museums which he will occupy until his death. it's like getting mad at new yorkers that central park exists. And that tge Met is nearby.
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Dec 29, 2018 01:44
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Ynglaur posted:And that tge Met is nearby. i abused this privilege
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Dec 29, 2018 01:46
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I know the Pope can't exactly sell the Prima Porta to fund food aid or whatever. The Catholic church, is absurdly wealthy though, in no small part due to centuries of cutthroat politics and capitalistic behaviour. I think that the room after room of priceless art (which as far as I can tell was mostly gathered as a private collection only) is a striking symbol of that. There were also people begging on the steps when I visited which was pretty miserable. Strategic Tea fucked around with this message at 11:35 on Dec 29, 2018 |
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Dec 29, 2018 11:32
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Some popes were extra-aggressive in raising funds from the Catholic world, but even the ones that weren't still had every monarch and aristocrat in western Europe sidling up to the church trying to win its favor with gifts. Not to mention how in more chaotic times, churches were still safe places for investment, because of how good Christians would think twice about plundering them. And so some big religious shifts had a side effect of giving massive financial benefits to people who wanted to eschew the old opulence and had an excuse to sell it all off. The protestant reformation, iconoclasm, and even the rise of Christianity over the old gods.
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Dec 29, 2018 16:31
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SlothfulCobra posted:churches were still safe places for investment, because of how good Christians would think twice about plundering them. *Johan Banér's cav rolls up, proceeds to pillage every church within reach*
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Dec 29, 2018 19:19
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There’s a bit in The Last Kingdom where some saxons dress up as vikings and go plundering. Is there any historical basis for that? It seems like a swell idea if you want your neighbour’s poo poo but don’t want any reprisal.
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Dec 29, 2018 19:32
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*Galaxy Brain Saxon* 'If we attach horns to the sides of our helmets, they're think we're Vikings for sure!'
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Dec 29, 2018 20:23
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Deptfordx posted:*Galaxy Brain Saxon* 'If we attach horns to the sides of our helmets, they're think we're Vikings for sure!' No you just wash and groom yourself a bit. Saxons didn't bathe much, Vikings did.
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Dec 29, 2018 20:35
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:There’s a bit in The Last Kingdom where some saxons dress up as vikings and go plundering. Is there any historical basis for that? 
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Dec 29, 2018 21:05
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Is The Last Kingdom good good or is it just schlocky good?
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Dec 29, 2018 21:20
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I'm enjoying it, fwiw. I liked thevfirst 2-3 seasons of Vikings, if that gives you a reference point.
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Dec 29, 2018 21:30
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The vikings and saxons had pretty similar material cultures, so why not.
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Dec 29, 2018 22:08
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Is The Last Kingdom good good or is it just schlocky good? According to Jamie Jeffers and Dr. Zee, parts of it are amazingly accurate and/or well done, others are quite a bit worse. They did some review episodes on their members-only feed.
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Dec 29, 2018 22:37
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:There’s a bit in The Last Kingdom where some saxons dress up as vikings and go plundering. Is there any historical basis for that? Koreans dressing up as Japanese pirates and plundering other Koreans was a semi-regular occurrence for sure. Like you point out, why would you not do it? I'm sure it must have happened all over the place. (also, in some periods (mostly after the Ming, not so much before) the "Japanese" pirates would really be an international thing and have plenty of Koreans in their ranks to begin with, but this was a different thing.) Koramei fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Dec 29, 2018 |
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Dec 29, 2018 22:48
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Is The Last Kingdom good good or is it just schlocky good? Be prepared to get loving tired of 'Wyrd biđ ful arćd' if you ever read the books.
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Dec 29, 2018 23:12
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feedmegin posted:Be prepared to get loving tired of 'Wyrd biđ ful arćd' if you ever read the books. "Wyrd biđ ful arćd" biđ ful arćd.
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Dec 29, 2018 23:32
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Is The Last Kingdom good good or is it just schlocky good? The first season was good. 2 and 3 were watchable but not great.
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Dec 30, 2018 01:15
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They show an excellent conception of how a shield wall functioned in practice, though like most cinema have the main characters remain helmetless so that they remain recognizable.
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Dec 30, 2018 01:25
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Season 1 and 2 are okay, season 3 is better than both put together.
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Dec 30, 2018 03:57
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I have been down with the cold so I watched Norsemen on Netflix. It's like if you put together The Office, vikings and a ton of jokes about rape.
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Dec 30, 2018 08:03
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Kemper Boyd posted:I have been down with the cold so I watched Norsemen on Netflix. "Ritual sacrifice is not an exact science" 
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Dec 30, 2018 22:03
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Hope this is not too far off-topic: currently reading Tacitus's Annals and in the intro emphasizes that his style of Latin is quite strange and unique, at least among surviving texts. As such I've resolved to make an attempt to learn how to read Latin, something which I last did in 9th grade several years ago. I would very much like to eventually be able to read Tacitus, Suetonius, the Augustan History, etc in the original after enjoying them in English. Can anyone recommend resources for learning Latin? Is [url="https:////https://www.amazon.com/Wheelocks-Latin-7th/dp/0061997226"]Wheelock's Latin[/url] still a good start (+ accompanying workbook)? I did take some classes in middle/high school years back as mentioned, but I doubt that will be very helpful beyond recalling some vocabulary. Duolinguo does not have Latin, sadly, nor Memrise. Any language apps that do and are good for vocabulary/grammar practice?
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Jan 1, 2019 00:20
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Jan 1, 2019 02:15
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Should hold 23 pencils
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Jan 1, 2019 03:01
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happy new year my friends https://twitter.com/PadraigBelton/status/1079665135076233216
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Jan 1, 2019 03:04
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HEY GUNS posted:happy new year my friends hah
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Jan 1, 2019 17:57
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HEY GUNS posted:happy new year my friends Is this one of those Shakespeare “teens translation edition” things?
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Jan 1, 2019 18:06
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Not entirely on topic but gently caress it. Does anyone have any recommendations for a book covering late Medieval/Early Modern France? Basically a historical narrative of the Ancien Regime up to the Revolution. The only things I can find are academic publications that do deep dives into some specific topic from the period. Oh and they all cost $50 for like 150 pages.
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Jan 2, 2019 01:43
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I'm finally watching all of the three kingdoms show and Liu Bei literally sends Yuan Shu a letter like "kill yourself"
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Jan 2, 2019 04:12
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Arglebargle III posted:I'm finally watching all of the three kingdoms show and Liu Bei literally sends Yuan Shu a letter like "kill yourself" I watched like ~50% of that show and it really starts to drag after Red Cliffs. Like the warlord’s hearts just aren’t in the whole ‘killing each other’ business anymore.
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Jan 2, 2019 04:32
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