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Kaiser Mazoku posted:Not that weird. That just means it doesn't even have trainwreck value. yeesh
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Jan 3, 2019 17:51
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Expect My Mom posted:it's weird to me that being boring is what's the nail in the coffin, not the story about getting revenge on Vile Women Basically Kaiser Mazoku posted:Not that weird. That just means it doesn't even have trainwreck value. And Darth Walrus posted:The latter appeals to misogynists. The former doesn't appeal to anyone. I say the nail though because I'm imagining a theoretical fan of this and them arguing how it's only disliked just because of the offensibly bad things. But if we're the actual Buddha and forgive Shield Hero of all its sins and judge it purely on it's positive qualities... what positive qualities? World? Stock. Events? Boring and stock. Designs? Bad. There isn't anything to redeem. It's poo poo on every level imaginable. I can't even imagine it on a Bad Anime night.
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Jan 3, 2019 17:56
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Expect My Mom posted:I guess that just doesn't make sense to me, I've never watched a show because I heard it was terrible. I don't get the mindset. Sometimes people like to watch terrible things because they're terrible. Let me tell you all about this wonderful movie called The Room.
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Jan 3, 2019 18:00
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Expect My Mom posted:I guess that just doesn't make sense to me, I've never watched a show because I heard it was terrible. I don't get the mindset. That stuff doesn't happen until a while in though. You get a good 40-ish chapters before that happens. Like she shows up every now and then. But it's not until a big plot point later where things really go off the rails. Up until that point it's a horribly boring show, with an rear end in a top hat protagonist who supports slave trade.
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Jan 3, 2019 18:19
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Everything Burrito posted:Berserk existing doesn't stop GS from being a trashfire If anything, Berserk et all is used like a shield or justification for GS to exist and I can't stop laughing every time I see that line of defense. Yes, anime has been ultra violent and schlock before. However, Berserk's entire premise isn't to go out of its way to revel in one monster race being both the most pathetic thing that no one takes seriously; yet because of this, also the most dangerous race ever that our faceless hero, Genocide Man, will gather a fawning harem by systematically going after this and only this exact creature. That even with a generic party of protagonists fighting a generic great evil in the background, eventually, everyone comes to respect and even love Genocide Man and specifically swoon over him when he finally takes off his helmet off - because no, you aren't a weirdo for liking any of this, dear viewer! What's worse is that it some how feels worse than the likes of Gate or Attack on Titan, which were more openly nationalistic power trips and military nerd revenge fantasies, Goblin Slayer tries to present itself as antiquated and almost innocuous fantasy with all the terrible trappings of modern anime rolled up into a setting that could easily come out of the late 80s. Cute girls, 90s shock gore, video gamey nazi bait. I am glad people pirate this trash. What's worse is there are unfortunately elements you could pull out of this Gordian knot that'd be interesting, like fantasy about the people who handle monsters most adventurers don't care about because they wanna be the big drat hero that fights a dragon. I really want to get into Isekai because its like we're on the rebound to the era that gave us Lodoss War or Slayers or Bastard! where japan was really interested in pen and paper. But because of the time we are in, we get this. Biggest Disappointment for me was Franxx. Crabtree fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Jan 3, 2019 |
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Jan 3, 2019 18:22
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Crabtree posted:I really want to get into Isekai because its like we're on the rebound to the era that gave us Lodoss War or Slayers or Bastard! where japan was really interested in pen and paper. But because of the time we are in, we get this. If you're ok with reading manga (or light novels this one has a pro translation and several volumes out) you might check out The Faraway Paladin which is still isekai but feels way more like a traditional fantasy story to me.
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Jan 3, 2019 18:48
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Slight Disappointments (Dishonorable Mentions, I guess; though I mostly liked the shows)
Wark Say fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Jan 3, 2019 |
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Jan 3, 2019 19:04
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Motto posted:*glances at non non biyori thread titles* y'all better not be implying what I think you're implying!!! Expect My Mom posted:it's weird to me that being boring is what's the nail in the coffin, not the story about getting revenge on Vile Women I think for most people whom are aware of, but not constantly reading into, political messages in media (regardless of if they're intended or not) weigh things between the positive traits vs. the negative ones. Personally, I don't consider something being misogynistic an automatic dealbreaker. If it's misogynistic and boring? Well, it might look really nice or something, but that's not going to be enough to save it. 
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Jan 3, 2019 19:08
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Kaiser Mazoku posted:Sometimes people like to watch terrible things because they're terrible. Let me tell you all about this wonderful movie called The Room. the room is entertaining because it's a man who has zero acting talent or expertise about making a film, trying to make a film hatewatching a 12-24 episode long season of anime is a really tedious commitment and the "trainwreck" bullshit is something people often apply to shows that legitimately aren't that bad just so they can watch it with a veil of ironic detachment
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Jan 3, 2019 19:12
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are you saying shield hero isn't that bad
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Jan 3, 2019 19:18
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Kaiser Mazoku posted:are you saying shield hero isn't that bad no it's pretty bad
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Jan 3, 2019 19:22
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fool_of_sound posted:The difference between Berserk and Goblin Slayer is that the sexual menaces of the goblins are both front and center and played for a sort of hosed up titillation. The very first chapter of the manga involves a drawn out depiction and explanation of torture and rape, and that never goes away. Literally every storyline focuses heavily on sexualized violence. I mean Berserk absolutely plays sexual menace up for titillation, goes to that well again and again (and only contextualizes it meaningfully about 50% of the time while the other half is the trolls or rape horse or the demon-maker cauldron in the Kushan arc) and some of the stuff with the Kushans is really uncomfortable in its depiction of a race of Middle Eastern-analogy people as demon-following BDSM savages. (Also this is still true and a still problem even though it also has a number of sympathetic and complicated Kushan characters like the prince, and humanizes their sultan as essentially waging his war out of personal insecurity and fear. These things don't cancel out on a one-to-one basis.) Berserk is pretty much the definition of a problematic favorite, and it doesn't do anyone any favors to shy away from that even if they like the series. It's also still light years ahead of Goblin Slayer.
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Jan 3, 2019 19:25
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The Colonel posted:no it's pretty bad ok then i'm curious what you mean by "shows that legitimately aren't that bad"
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Jan 3, 2019 19:26
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I mean Berserk absolutely plays sexual menace up for titillation Even with the protagonists, Guts and Casca genuine sexual exchange is tainted with the fear of violence and Farnese and Serpico have abusive and incestual exchanges. Like Murata uses it as a device way too many times, but never in a way that i thought that was supposed to elbowing the viewer and going "pretty good, huh?" Expect My Mom fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Jan 3, 2019 |
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Jan 3, 2019 19:36
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In one thing the sexual violence is supposed to arouse you, in the other it is supposed to disgust you. Both are cheap but rape as titillation is worse.
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Jan 3, 2019 20:24
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At least goblin Slayer isn't a devious plot by Shinzo Abe to get you to gently caress and have kids like Darling in the Franxx is. 
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Jan 3, 2019 20:32
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I don't have a source because I'm sure it was just something I read in the forum somewhere but iirc didn't Miura regret some of the edgier poo poo he put in Berserk early on? Like the thing has been running for decades and overall times have changed and what was "ok" back in the 90s doesn't really fly the same now -- yet here is the same crappy schlock in a new work and maybe it wouldn't have raised eyebrows as much back then but it would be nice to think we have moved forward a bit and can say hey this isn't OK anymore, let's not.
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Jan 3, 2019 20:35
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Grapplejack posted:At least goblin Slayer isn't a devious plot by Shinzo Abe to get you to gently caress and have kids like Darling in the Franxx is. Thanks for reminding me of the other reason why I dropped that show: its obnoxious heteronormitivity.
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Jan 3, 2019 20:35
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Everything Burrito posted:I don't have a source because I'm sure it was just something I read in the forum somewhere but iirc didn't Miura regret some of the edgier poo poo he put in Berserk early on? Like the thing has been running for decades and overall times have changed and what was "ok" back in the 90s doesn't really fly the same now -- yet here is the same crappy schlock in a new work and maybe it wouldn't have raised eyebrows as much back then but it would be nice to think we have moved forward a bit and can say hey this isn't OK anymore, let's not. I believe Miura watched Idol M@ster and realised the error of his ways.
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Jan 3, 2019 20:37
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I know he definitely regrets that opening scene with the demon girl for various reasons, one of them being how out of character it is for Guts.
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Jan 3, 2019 20:41
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Crabtree posted:
Check out Undead Adventurer and Slime if you haven't already as they go on sale on the Play Store and Bookwalker very frequently. There's two threads for discussing Slime, one for the Anime and one for the LN and Manga. Both have spoilers marked and unmarked so watch out.
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Jan 3, 2019 20:49
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Kaiser Mazoku posted:ok then i'm curious what you mean by "shows that legitimately aren't that bad" She means such as how people called Symphogear 'a trainwreck' to discuss it during the Zorak era, or how people will say they're watching the trainwreck that is SAO, despite the fact that it has plenty of good points to it and it gives the viewer a sense of detachment from engaging from the media they enjoy critically (you can't persecute me for enjoying this show, I'm just enjoying watching the trainwreck).
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Jan 3, 2019 21:33
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Wark Say posted:Also, while discussion about the worst 2018 shows and the difference of opinions therein is valid, if you want to talk about The Rising of the Shield Hero for some god-forsaken reason, the Winter 2019 Anime Thread is over here. No, please don't spill this toxic discussion into the seasonal thread, the worst Anime Thread is supposed to be a quarantine chamber for that crap. I'll probably just ask anybody that wants to earnestly discuss it to make a thread for it. And hey, it might be entertaining for a short bit before it devolves into the same circular arguments over and over again
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Jan 3, 2019 21:37
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Julias posted:She means such as how people called Symphogear 'a trainwreck' to discuss it during the Zorak era, or how people will say they're watching the trainwreck that is SAO, despite the fact that it has plenty of good points to it and it gives the viewer a sense of detachment from engaging from the media they enjoy critically (you can't persecute me for enjoying this show, I'm just enjoying watching the trainwreck). Okay well first of all Symphogear is actually good and I curse anyone who says otherwise and second, what you're talking about sounds different from what I'm talking about (using "trainwreck" as a shield to secretly enjoy something out of shame vs. enjoying something explicitly because it's bad a la The Room). From the sound of it, Shield Hero doesn't even have worth as the latter and, well, anyone who claims to hate something while actually enjoying it to avoid being judged is just a sad person.
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Jan 3, 2019 21:40
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J-Spot posted:There was really only one show I gave a full 3 episodes before deciding it wasn't for me and that was That Time I Got Reincarnated as a Slime. I don't even see this in the list, possibly because it's ongoing but I've already noped out on it so it's going here anyway. I gave it three episodes because the premise was amusing on first glance and it had a lot of hype but I don't really get it. Everything I saw was just the slime explaining about how he has such-and-such magical power to solve any situation which is a level of imagination I can get from the average four year old. I would probably mark it as the top worst one I bothered to watch, though I didn't watch much at all this season so I'm sure there are other things that are actually worse. It's actually kind of amusing seeing all these people earnestly enjoying it and discussing it; I think a lot of the hype is because it's the first time a bunch of (usually younger) anime fans are being introduced to the genre of "reincarnating in another world and being an extremely powerful person who is loved by everyone" (and I think that genre can be very intoxicating to a media-naive young person). Like, people in that thread were bringing up the problematic nature of all these people treating the protagonist like a cult leader, and it's just funny to see because that's the entire point of the genre. Thuryl posted:it's mostly just the usual "inherently evil races posing a threat that can only be dealt with by genocide are kind of a questionable thing to write into your setting" thing, in combination with various corners of the internet being gross about it The kind of disturbing thing about this is that Goblin Slayer goes out of its way to say "to be honest humans committed the original sin by killing goblins as training, resulting in generations of goblins who saw their families get slaughtered as children and ended up hating humans, so you can't really blame them" but then comes to the conclusion of "but even though they're not at fault, there's no correction for their completely justified hatred other than extermination." So there's some very direct real-world parallels to some of the arguments used regarding, say, the Israel-Palestine conflict (or if you go back further, South Africa). So it doesn't so much demonize the goblins are it tries to make a "rational" argument for why the only option is extermination. Goblin Slayer is definitely extremely problematic, but in a different way than most of these posts seem to perceive it; the "rape as shock" thing disappears surprisingly fast (I'd actually say it's less "edgy" than something like Berserk), but the disturbing "the goblins aren't evil, but must nevertheless be exterminated to protect the human race" stuff is more pervasive and in some ways even more hosed up than a straight-forward "goblins are inferior and evil" message. It also definitely isn't a power fantasy; the protagonist is clearly and explicitly only good at dealing with goblins. The Slime isekai mentioned above fits that bill far more. edit: I should probably mention that I'm sort of assuming the anime adaptation is the same basic plot as the manga, since I've only read the latter. vvv Goblin Slayer certainly has elements of the social aspect of the power fantasy, where the entire town likes him because he focuses on something that is more immediate threat to them than the other "high rank" heroes, but even against Goblins he comes off as someone who is hyperspecialized and still takes considerable effort to win. Don't interpret this as me defending the series, since it has far bigger problems, but there's a pretty big difference between the way its protagonist is portrayed and the way protagonists in power fantasies like the aforementioned Slime anime/WN are portrayed. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 21:58 on Jan 3, 2019 |
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Jan 3, 2019 21:47
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quote:It also definitely isn't a power fantasy
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Jan 3, 2019 21:49
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Grapplejack posted:At least goblin Slayer isn't a devious plot by Shinzo Abe to get you to gently caress and have kids like Darling in the Franxx is. can we stop using the shinzo abe anime meme when the two shows people have recently applied it to are a sci-fi anime with six different plotlines that it randomly abandons across its runtime directed by a man who's deep statement about the intent of the show was that he didn't really have any intent and just kind of wrote what he wrote without thinking about it too much, and a gag anime based off of a mediocre dungeon crawler that has a part where a guy gets comically jerked off by a fairy it's really hosed up to use legit, hosed up irl poo poo as a punchline for a bad sci-fi anime written with a 40 year old cis man's concept of gender, or a gag anime made to advertise a rerelease of a game with a weird premise that even in the original games pokes fun at itself for how odd that premise is The Colonel fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Jan 3, 2019 |
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Jan 3, 2019 21:50
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"Trainwreck" is quite literal to me and I hold the term in high regard. It's a terrible horrifying event of great loss that you can't look away from because it's also sheer spectacle to see metal twist and fire erupt. Both aspects are required for the term to stick. A real trainwreck follows the proper definition of 'awesome'. I can see how it can be subjective though. I easily ignored My Sister My Writer even though it's an easy cite, but Darling in the Franxx was almost one, up to seeing the curve ahead and watching it jump off the rails; the real disappointment was how it just derailed and came to a stop. DitF actively avoided being a trainwreck and was probably worse off for it. The Room is an absolute trainwreck. The movie is fascinatingly terrible and one spends much of it trying to ascertain how it even got funded (answer: money laundering).
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Jan 3, 2019 21:52
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Ytlaya posted:I would probably mark it as the top worst one I bothered to watch, though I didn't watch much at all this season so I'm sure there are other things that are actually worse. It's actually kind of amusing seeing all these people earnestly enjoying it and discussing it; I think a lot of the hype is because it's the first time a bunch of (usually younger) anime fans are being introduced to the genre of "reincarnating in another world and being an extremely powerful person who is loved by everyone" (and I think that genre can be very intoxicating to a media-naive young person). Like, people in that thread were bringing up the problematic nature of all these people treating the protagonist like a cult leader, and it's just funny to see because that's the entire point of the genre. I'm not trying to knock you for not liking the slime show b/c you can like or dislike what you want but it's kinda lovely to indicate that someone liking it means they're some sort of anime naif who isn't sophisticated enough to look at it critically.
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Jan 3, 2019 21:57
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Darth Walrus posted:Since Shield Hero is one of those stories that escalates over time, how much awful bullshit is the anime actually likely to cover? Like, might it be less offensive (give or take the initial, awful premise of 'dude gets falsely accused of rape, gathers harem of slaves as therapy') because it doesn't get to the really spectacularly offensive bits? I can't remember a single part that didn't include spectacularly offensive bits. Almost immediately after the initial "getting falsely accused of rape by an EVIL WOMAN" part, he acquires his literal slave child (who ends up becoming the love interest). Like, usually isekai like that have a "warm-up" period that is actually kinda decent, before the protagonist becomes overpowered or anything creepy shows up, but Shield Hero pretty much jumps into the deep end at the very beginning. Onmi posted:It's the loving worst on every level. Its the trashiest thing ive ever had the displeaure to read about. It has no redeeming qualities and the villain is literally a woman who uses false rape claims to destroy the world. An aspect of a goddess doing so so she can eat everyone while crying about anyone who even lifts a finger. It is so god damned bad in concept, execution and content. Yes, this basically. Shield Hero carries the dubious distinction of being the most personally offensive anime-related media I've ever tried to read. It is almost impressively bad, and its popularity is genuinely disturbing to me. Onmi posted:My point is selling the female villain into sex slavery to a guy who is described as looking like Jabba the Hurt, after magically changing her name to something like lying bitch? That's not the actions of a protagonist. But I'm girly in the superman and Spider-Man camp of wanting my heroes to be hero. And this show doesn't get the Goblin Slayer out because it's NAMED Shield HERO. That's half a joke and half serious... the final comment anyway the rest of it all happens. You can potentially do something interesting with the concept of a morally bad/dubious protagonist, but in Shield Hero it is extremely clear that the author fully approves of the protagonist's actions. Like, I am extremely confident that the author of that story truly and genuinely hates women. Kaiser Mazoku posted:Look, GS has a barrel full of flaws and problems, but you're turning that barrel upside down, emptying it, and scraping the bottom with your bare fingernails if you think "racist propaganda" is one of them. Maybe if the goblins had some characteristics about them that alluded to real life races, then I could see your point, but they're literally just generic goblins. I would say that Goblin Slayer is probably unintentional racist propaganda. I actually don't think the author specifically had "these goblins are just like real life ethnic minorities" in mind, but within the context of the story the protagonist uses the exact same logic that is sometimes used to justify atrocities in real life. If anything, the fact that the goblins are humanized is actually what makes it really bad; it specifically goes out of its way to tell the audience "the goblins have a good reason for their feelings towards humans and behave the way they do because of human crimes" and then still comes to the conclusion of "but we must kill them to defend ourselves." It's a different type of racism than your Tolkien-esque "these people are fundamentally sub-human," but no less harmful. Everything Burrito posted:I'm not trying to knock you for not liking the slime show b/c you can like or dislike what you want but it's kinda lovely to indicate that someone liking it means they're some sort of anime naif who isn't sophisticated enough to look at it critically. I mean, ultimately all taste is subjective, but this thread kinda shows that there's certain things that are almost universally considered bad/trashy. I'm not really sure how else to interpret people treating an extremely typical isekai power fantasy like something unique/novel other than either "they're unfamiliar/new to the premise" or "they have bad taste." Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Jan 3, 2019 |
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Jan 3, 2019 22:13
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Ytlaya posted:I can't remember a single part that didn't include spectacularly offensive bits. Almost immediately after the initial "getting falsely accused of rape by an EVIL WOMAN" part, he acquires his literal slave child (who ends up becoming the love interest). Like, usually isekai like that have a "warm-up" period that is actually kinda decent, before the protagonist becomes overpowered or anything creepy shows up, but Shield Hero pretty much jumps into the deep end at the very beginning. I suppose it's because Slime is unusual in that its power fantasy is extremely upbeat and positive? It's a genre where you usually take an undercurrent of greasy misanthropy for granted, and I can see it being a lot more digestible with a sense of wonder inserted instead of that's your cup of tea. Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Jan 3, 2019 |
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Jan 3, 2019 22:19
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Darth Walrus posted:I suppose it's because Slime is unusual in that its power fantasy is extremely upbeat and positive? It's a genre where you usually take an undercurrent of greasy misanthropy for granted. Oh yeah, I want to make it absolutely clear that isekai like Slime are not comparable with something like Shield Hero. Like, I find Slime to be extremely boring and generic, but it's generic for a genre many people aren't familiar with (this is what I meant with the comment about viewers being naive; if someone doesn't read web novels, there's a good chance they've never encountered the genre* until Slime's anime). It isn't personally offensive to me like Shield Hero or other isekai with slavery and poo poo. It's just sort of boring to read a story where someone is constantly becoming stronger to the point where any conflicts have little tension and they're constantly adored by their companions due to said power. * not just referring to isekai here, but its specific "chilling as an uber-powerful, well-liked person in a fantasy world" iteration Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 22:31 on Jan 3, 2019 |
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Jan 3, 2019 22:28
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Ytlaya posted:Oh yeah, I want to make it absolutely clear that isekai like Slime are not comparable with something like Shield Hero. Like, I find Slime to be extremely boring and generic, but it's generic for a genre many people aren't familiar with (this is what I meant with the comment about viewers being naive; if someone doesn't read web novels, there's a good chance they've never encountered the genre until Slime's anime). It isn't personally offensive to me like Shield Hero or other isekai with slavery and poo poo. It's just sort of boring to read a story where someone is constantly becoming stronger to the point where any conflicts have little tension and they're constantly adored by their companions due to said power. From what I've heard, Slime gets around that by de-emphasising conflict and going for more of a travelogue vibe. Like, here is this amazing world filled with endearingly weird creatures for you to explore. Having the power to effortlessly stomp anything that gets in your way is just a way to facilitate that, rather than being the main purpose of the series in its own right. That's its selling point for even people familiar with isekai - it sets aside the core structure of the genre so it can focus at gaping at the cool background poo poo along the way. Most isekai stuff is a lot more mission-focused, or at least focused on the protagonist's ascension to godhood. This one's more like God going on a pleasant holiday with his buddies.
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Jan 3, 2019 22:36
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Kaiser Mazoku posted:ok then i'm curious what you mean by "shows that legitimately aren't that bad" Something like Shield Hero isn't so much a hilarious mess to watch unfold as it is just a gross, not very fun experience.
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Jan 3, 2019 22:36
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I haven't followed the thread because I got way behind but of what I saw of the slime show it felt more like a fun, inoffensive slice of life with a fantasy setting and I enjoyed it for being that. It wasn't heavily fanservice-y in what I saw of it and the mc is literally a cute blob with no gender and I liked that aspect. It's fluff, which is very boring to some people but if somebody enjoys cute fluff why disparage them for that.
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Jan 3, 2019 22:38
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Darth Walrus posted:From what I've heard, Slime gets around that by de-emphasising conflict and going for more of a travelogue vibe. Like, here is this amazing world filled with endearingly weird creatures for you to explore. Having the power to effortlessly stomp anything that gets in your way is just a way to facilitate that, rather than being the main purpose of the series in its own right. That's its selling point for even people familiar with isekai - it sets aside the core structure of the genre so it can focus at gaping at the cool background poo poo along the way. Most isekai stuff is a lot more mission-focused, or at least focused on the protagonist's ascension to godhood. This one's more like God going on a pleasant holiday with his buddies. there's dozen of series like that, you've managed to describe nothing about it that is not generic
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Jan 3, 2019 23:00
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franxx has an explicitly gay couple which means shinzo abe would probably sentence the creators to death if he could
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Jan 3, 2019 23:03
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To elaborate on Slime. It's Sid Meier's Civ combined with the Sims but fantasy with a bit Strategy JRPG and traditional(think 90's and early to mid 00's) JRPG trimmings. I've made some posts explaining a LOT of stuff about the series including some info dumps in the thread for the written material. There's definetly an aspect of chilling out fluff, but that's basically the major appeal to some people since a lot of Isekai have some goal of beating the demon lord or going on some major journey of some sort whereas here it's like I said, he's just playing a more directly involved version of Civ trying to make the best world possible for his people.Davincie posted:there's dozen of series like that, you've managed to describe nothing about it that is not generic doomrider7 fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Jan 3, 2019 |
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Jan 3, 2019 23:04
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doomrider7 posted:To elaborate on Slime. It's Sid Meier's Civ combined with the Sims but fantasy with a bit Strategy JRPG and traditional(think 90's and early to mid 00's) JRPG trimmings. https://twitter.com/duvalmagic/status/486550022910005248?lang=en
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Jan 3, 2019 23:06
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it's like a mix of nobunaga's ambition and dinosaur resurrection
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Jan 3, 2019 23:10
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