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sterster posted:Further more, I know of other companies in the valley that are dropping quality team and engineering is still a desirable skill set for many companies. The transition was similar to what you been in for a while: work on stuff and then use that to leverage a position that will use the new skills. I faked it heavily and made it, so can you. You are not a SE1, you have way to much experience for that. It might not be all SE experience but all that thinking about how to approach a piece of functionality is MEGASUPER valuable in teams, especially teams without an outside QA person/group. Your capacity of thinking of the possibilities where things go wrong is something SE's are not naturally good at, it is an acquired skill. SE's think in solutions, not in problems. Realise that you can do both, no sorting algorithm will teach you that. The main difference I found in feature development and test development is that (very generally speaking) a feature is about taking a piece of data (an object) from somewhere (some endpoint, a database or some internal queue) and then doing some stuff with it, triggering some other things and either write it away somewhere or just fizzle out. Of course there is more to it, but for the difference between QA and SE, this works. Test development is much more procedural, following clear steps to get to an end state. If I do setup, step 1, step2 and step 3, I expect outcome x. It is less about objects and more about actions. Another, smaller, difference is that test development tends to be on a macro level, as you mentioned using java to drive Selenium, you are probably running your tests on a fully compiled, deployed system integrated with a persistent database and so on. When writing features, stuff is much more microscopic. When writing a feature and the accompanying unit tests, you can only account for that very tiny piece of the code, discounting all the surroundings. So much has been written about this, I will not repeat it here. But realise that your knowledge and experience on the macro level, on quality thinking and on state handling is valuable. Interview for medior SE positions, bring code you wrote, accept code challenges and gently caress those who want to judge skill based on white-boarding memorised algo's. The fun part about code challenges is that you can bring past ones to present in new interviews, it is what landed me jobs in the past. The SE market is completely desperate for warm bodies that can implement CRUD poo poo using Spring Boot, so you are in a good position. Also: never accept a pay cut you did not initiate yourself.
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Jan 2, 2019 11:50
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How do you guys format a resume when you only have one relevant job? Is it worth listing my older non-dev jobs, or should I just list the current developer job only? I was thinking I could have the sections ordered like this: Skills, Experience, Education. I'm wondering if it might also work to do this: Skills, Related Experience (current job), Education, Other Experience (older jobs at the bottom of the page).
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Jan 2, 2019 15:58
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I would list any jobs up until like college just so they don't think you had a gap in employment. When I had a shorter resume I would dedicate a lot of space to detailing my relevant job experience with brief descriptions of my other jobs. Now I just list the job title and dates. I'll probably phase them out completely in a few years.
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Jan 2, 2019 16:19
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List any interesting spare time projects you worked on. If you're recently out of school you can list relevant coursework. Honestly listing non-dev jobs is probably not going to help you much in getting a job. But it would make your resume look less blank I guess.
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Jan 2, 2019 17:05
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Crossposting this from BFC, as I figured people here might have comments. Full details here. I'm a senior Computer Science student from Canada looking at two competing job offers, both with companies I've done 4 month internships with before (one last winter, one which just ended). The first company is a medium-large sized HFT firm in NYC (~1000 people in three offices wordwide), that is very highly respected in it's field. It's well known as one of the hardest jobs in the industry to land, pays incredibly well (starting at ~250k USD/yr (including a personal performance dependent bonus) + 401k matching and an incredible health plan with lots of potential to grow, and a 50k signing bonus), is stable and growing, with free lunch and gym and all the usual crazy tech perks. It's also only a 7 hour drive or 2 hour flight where I grew up and where all my family is. I found it a pretty good place to work. I also like to cook and have a lot of cooking equipment that I could easily move to NYC and have a nice setup. The second company is small (~10 people) HFT firm in Tokyo. It pays very well for Tokyo (~130k/yr + a firm performance and personal performance dependent bonus, which probably would have been ~150k this year, but is very variable), but might not be the most stable company in the world (plus a good chunk of the pay is tied to firm performance) and has limited growth potential (as all the employees except the owner are effectively equal and paid the same with some slight tweaks to the bonus structure). It's also 12 hours by an expensive plan ride away from my family and existing friends, and I'd imagine making new friends and finding other jobs in the future will be harder there given the language barrier. However, I just worked there, and absolutely fell in love with Tokyo and Japan. The city is amazing, the general way of life feels like a better fit for me, and the transit, infrastructure and food give an incredible quality of life. My university program involves finding a lot of 4 month internships, meaning I've been able to live in NYC, London, SF and Tokyo, and this is the first one I've reached the end of and not had any real desire to return home. I also quite enjoyed the freedom of the smaller firm, both in terms of the work done and the working style (you could order whatever setup you like to work on, you could work from home most of the time if you want, or come into the office, hours were mostly flexible). Part of me thinks that I'm giving up an incredible opportunity if I don't take the NY firm, and that the foreignness of Tokyo may grate on me eventually (even if it didn't at all in the 4 months I was there). It's an insane amount of money, a highly prestigious job that I enjoy doing, and a world class city near my family where I speak the language. The other part of thinks I'm being too conservative taking that job, and should take the risk and return to Tokyo, which has been by far my favourite place to live.
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Jan 2, 2019 17:19
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I think that the NYC one is better, as crash is pending so his bonus will be poo poo.
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Jan 2, 2019 17:23
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The Dark Wind posted:How do you guys format a resume when you only have one relevant job? Is it worth listing my older non-dev jobs, or should I just list the current developer job only? I was thinking I could have the sections ordered like this: Skills, Experience, Education. I'm wondering if it might also work to do this: Skills, Related Experience (current job), Education, Other Experience (older jobs at the bottom of the page). Put the job section first. It's what people who read resumes want to read first. Do you have other professional experience? It's one thing to leave off "dishwasher", it's another to leave off "restaurant manager."
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Jan 2, 2019 17:27
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mmm11105 posted:Crossposting this from BFC, as I figured people here might have comments. Full details here
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Jan 2, 2019 17:36
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I'd probably go with the NYC option. This is a starting point for your career, not the company you will be with for 30 years. You are setting yourself up with a well respected company and high base salary, all future job opportunities and negotiations will build upon that. That being said, do whichever will make you happiest
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Jan 2, 2019 18:06
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Bruegels Fuckbooks posted:You probably don't want to work for a Japanese software company in Japan - there's this whole weird thing where nobody wants to leave before the boss does, and you might be expected to work until like 9 pm every day and get drinks with your coworkers afterwards. You might also not have internet access while doing this if your boss is particularly controlling. That poo poo is actually even borderline culturally acceptable compared with the US, to the point where there are even anime shows about programmers who work so hard they drop dead in the office and that is portrayed as expected behavior. The company in Japan is 10 people, run/owned by an expat and more than 50% expats. I've worked there on an internship - they definitely don't run like a Japanese company at all. Work days were generally 8:30-5:00 for me - including taking 30m-1hr every day to go out for lunch.
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Jan 2, 2019 18:30
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NYC. Bank cash like crazy until you burn out (it's HFT, you will work crazy long hours and be under enormous pressure at all times), then find a job with reasonable work/life balance. Assuming you're in your early 20s, this is a perfect time for that kind of lifestyle. Once you hit your mid-30s, chances are you won't want to work 90 hours a week because you'll have a family and kids and just generally have lower energy levels.
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Jan 2, 2019 18:36
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New Yorp New Yorp posted:NYC. Bank cash like crazy until you burn out (it's HFT, you will work crazy long hours and be under enormous pressure at all times), then find a job with reasonable work/life balance. Assuming you're in your early 20s, this is a perfect time for that kind of lifestyle. Once you hit your mid-30s, chances are you won't want to work 90 hours a week because you'll have a family and kids and just generally have lower energy levels. I have interned at both of these places - neither we're particularly insanely high pressure or long hours, nor did I really see that in others. The NY job is probably a little more effort - saw plenty of people doing 50 hour weeks there, but never really more than that except if things were on fire somewhere. The Japanese one I was in at 8:30 and out at 5 every day, and others seemed similar.
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Jan 2, 2019 18:45
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I would go with the solid money in NYC. Make friends with some finance bros who can show you the basics of how to not get ripped off on retirement/investments. Also, if your first job out the gate is very high-paying and looks drat good on your resume, it makes getting the second, better job easier. Weather your definition of 'better' is 'free-er', 'higher-paying', or 'far away'. Moto42 fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Jan 3, 2019 |
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Jan 3, 2019 00:40
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mmm11105 posted:The first company is a medium-large sized HFT firm in NYC (~1000 people in three offices wordwide), that is very highly respected in it's field. It's well known as one of the hardest jobs in the industry to land, pays incredibly well (starting at ~250k USD/yr (including a personal performance dependent bonus) + 401k matching and an incredible health plan with lots of potential to grow, and a 50k signing bonus), is stable and growing, with free lunch and gym and all the usual crazy tech perks. It's also only a 7 hour drive or 2 hour flight where I grew up and where all my family is. I found it a pretty good place to work. I also like to cook and have a lot of cooking equipment that I could easily move to NYC and have a nice setup. take the jane st job, work out of the hong kong office and visit tokyo on weekends?
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Jan 3, 2019 00:57
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Those salaries are loving bonkers. If I were you, I'd go to Japan. You won't really get an experience like that again, since you'd be working for expats and not part of the work culture of standard Japan. With the money being thrown at you right out of the gate, I'm willing to bet money is not going to be a major concern for pretty much the rest of your life. You should prioritize enjoying life and experiencing what Earth has to offer while you're young enough to enjoy it.
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Jan 3, 2019 01:21
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Spent all of my 20s living in South Korea. Also spent a lot of time in Japan, though only on vacations. I dream of having that kind of a job offer, but I was born 10 years too early to benefit from a healthy economy and 10 years too late for a meaningful college degree. FWIW my suggestion is to do the Japan job for one or two years and then relocate back to the US with your saved up money.
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Jan 3, 2019 02:16
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Pie Colony posted:List any interesting spare time projects you worked on. If you're recently out of school you can list relevant coursework. Honestly listing non-dev jobs is probably not going to help you much in getting a job. But it would make your resume look less blank I guess. I had one interviewer mention that I should have put some of my past experience with manufacturing on my resume (pre-college factory job). I was applying for a position in a manufacturing company, but the position was entirely dev (although related to manufacturing processes). I made sure to mention the past experience in the interview which at least helped then. I still think it was better for me to leave it off as I didn't really have room, but if new to the field, then past experience is important (even if not related to the field). It shows prospective employers that the applicant has done work before, maybe even boring or grueling work. Judging by my experience with people who have never had a job until applying for one after college it can be important to display to potential employers that one is familiar with having and holding a job.
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Jan 3, 2019 02:27
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Vincent Valentine posted:Those salaries are loving bonkers. That's what one half of my brain is saying, the other half says I don't know when the music will stop and I won't be able to command such a high salary anymore and that I should cash in on the stable, guaranteed high paying job while I can. I started dumping all the factors I've been considering on a giant table if anyone is interested in.
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Jan 3, 2019 16:39
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flip a coin you'll be fine either way man
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Jan 3, 2019 17:24
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Cost of living in Japan will be cheaper - probably not enough to make up for that delta but you should look at apartments and overheads and do the math. Edit: I just read your BFC thread and noted your concern about your anxiety meds not being available in Japan. This would be a bigger concern to me than your N5 level language (you will pick up language very quickly living there). Getting good drugs in Japan can suck even for basic painkillers. Cirofren fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Jan 3, 2019 |
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Jan 3, 2019 23:15
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Cirofren posted:Cost of living in Japan will be cheaper - probably not enough to make up for that delta but you should look at apartments and overheads and do the math. Yeah, when I was there for 4 months I had trouble finding ibuprofen that wasn't mixed with other stuff. My exact meds aren't available in Japan, but there is another SNRI that is, but I wouldn't be able to try the switchover until I was there as that one isn't available in Canada.
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Jan 4, 2019 00:05
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Early in your career if you have a big-name company offering you employment (eg Google, Amazon, etc) you almost always should take it. You will have a very very long career. You will be able to get another job in Japan if you want. But interviews are random enough that it might take multiple attempts to get another big-name job. Thing is, much more so than your school or degree, showing that you can get hired by and work at a big-name company with a tough hiring bar is a signal to future employers. Long after you've forgotten about Japan, the big-name, competitive company will still be paying dividends on your resume and opening doors more easily.
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Jan 4, 2019 07:06
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Idk maybe I'm missing something but it seems like an absolute no brainer to take the quarter mil a year finance job in NYC from the big name company rather than, well, the other one
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Jan 4, 2019 08:52
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The above two posters have changed my mind, actually. I agree with them now. Also, re: medicine -- other countries have the same medicines, it's just that the Pharmaceutical industry for the US isn't globalized at all, which is part of why prices are so high, and so everything has different names and is made by different companies. So they do have Ibuprofen or whatever, it's just that they don't know that name because the company brand has never existed outside of the US. It's sort of like a language barrier. So for example if I have a scar from a scrape or cut from a biting remark from someone's post in GBS or whatever, I can't go to the pharmacy and ask for Neosporin. I go ask for Fucidin: http://www.fucidin.co.kr/index.asp. Love Stole the Day fucked around with this message at 09:42 on Jan 4, 2019 |
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Jan 4, 2019 09:29
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Mr. Sophistication posted:Idk maybe I'm missing something but it seems like an absolute no brainer to take the quarter mil a year finance job in NYC from the big name company rather than, well, the other one Here's the big comparison table I made. The biggest draw to the Japan job for me is the location - through my internships I've spend 4 months each in SF, NY, London and Tokyo and Tokyo is the only one I was actively sad to leave after 4 months. I also enjoyed the work at that job a little more, even if it was less technically challenging than the stuff in NY.
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Jan 4, 2019 15:18
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mmm11105 posted:Here's the big comparison table I made. The biggest draw to the Japan job for me is the location - through my internships I've spend 4 months each in SF, NY, London and Tokyo and Tokyo is the only one I was actively sad to leave after 4 months. I also enjoyed the work at that job a little more, even if it was less technically challenging than the stuff in NY. If you like Tokyo enough to take a 120k/yr pay cut along with having much less impressive credentials by all means go ahead. But I would like it on record that I think it's a bad idea
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Jan 4, 2019 19:48
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mmm11105 posted:Here's the big comparison table I made. The biggest draw to the Japan job for me is the location - through my internships I've spend 4 months each in SF, NY, London and Tokyo and Tokyo is the only one I was actively sad to leave after 4 months. I also enjoyed the work at that job a little more, even if it was less technically challenging than the stuff in NY. Then take the NY job, bank some cash, and go on vacation in Tokyo for a few weeks/month.
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Jan 4, 2019 20:25
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Kyth posted:You will have a very very long career.
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Jan 4, 2019 20:33
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Mr. Sophistication posted:If you like Tokyo enough to take a 120k/yr pay cut along with having much less impressive credentials by all means go ahead. But I would like it on record that I think it's a bad idea Pay cut is likely less than that - as with many financial jobs you are taking a gamble on the bonus. Since it's a smaller firm the gamble is riskier than with the other job - there's a chance I get 0 bonus but also a decent chance I get a 150k+ bonus if the business is successful. But yeah, this is what I'm struggling with - I really loved both Tokyo as a place to live and the people at the company there, so my gut wants me to take the job there, but my mind is debating whether it's worth the downsides. I'll talk myself out of it, and then something will remind me of how much I liked it there and it starts all over again.
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Jan 4, 2019 21:21
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I would go for the finance job too for the $$$ and just travel to Japan on your fat stacks of cash.
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Jan 4, 2019 22:03
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mmm11105 posted:Pay cut is likely less than that - as with many financial jobs you are taking a gamble on the bonus. Since it's a smaller firm the gamble is riskier than with the other job - there's a chance I get 0 bonus but also a decent chance I get a 150k+ bonus if the business is successful. Well what do you value more, experience or money? It sounds like looking for work in the future will be made easier by taking the NYC job, but I'm sure you'll be more than fine looking for work if you take the Tokyo gig too. It sounds like you'll be happier overall living in Tokyo and working there, and your happiness is more important than any amount of money. I know a lot of folks are saying to take the job with the big bucks, but ultimately if you're gonna spend that entire time wondering what it would be like if you had taken the Tokyo job, that'll eat at you. Here are a few things that help me when making decisions: - Spend a day (or hell even just an hour) acting as if you've made your decision. How do you feel about it? Try one day with the NYC job, and one day with the Tokyo job. - If your friend was in this exact same spot, what would you tell them? - Look into the WRAP decision making model by Chip and Dan Heath, and try using some of those principles. This seems like a good summary.
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Jan 4, 2019 22:53
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The Dark Wind posted:Well what do you value more, experience or money? It sounds like looking for work in the future will be made easier by taking the NYC job, but I'm sure you'll be more than fine looking for work if you take the Tokyo gig too. It sounds like you'll be happier overall living in Tokyo and working there, and your happiness is more important than any amount of money. I know a lot of folks are saying to take the job with the big bucks, but ultimately if you're gonna spend that entire time wondering what it would be like if you had taken the Tokyo job, that'll eat at you. Thanks a lot of the advice. The NY job is easier in many respects - I know the language meaning finding housing and getting everything set up would be much easier, I can move everything I already own instead of having to buy new, my family is nearby to help, etc. The problem is know that I know how much I loved living in Tokyo, choosing not to go back will eat away at me. I could always vacation there, but there something different about living there, that I find much more attractive - you get to experience it at a different pace. However, I don't know if that love of Tokyo will last long term, if I'll be able to settle in and find a friend group there, or if this company will even last. Do you have any advice/experience on how to successfully act as if you've made a decision? I've tried this before but never managed to really feel as if I'd made the decision, and find myself coming back to second guessing it.
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Jan 4, 2019 23:07
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mmm11105 posted:Pay cut is likely less than that - as with many financial jobs you are taking a gamble on the bonus. Since it's a smaller firm the gamble is riskier than with the other job - there's a chance I get 0 bonus but also a decent chance I get a 150k+ bonus if the business is successful. If the firm in question is Jane Street, you probably don't need to worry too much about the bonus.
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Jan 5, 2019 01:09
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ultrafilter posted:If the firm in question is Jane Street, you probably don't need to worry too much about the bonus. The firm with the guaranteed bonus is in fact Jane Street (it becomes more tied to firm perf the longer you work there, first year they guarantee a baseline and only consider your performance above that). The smaller Tokyo firm bases it's bonuses off a cut of the firm profits after all expenses and salaries, and then divides it as the boss deems fit based on performance. So that one is much more variable of course, based on this years P/L I suspect I may have made slightly more than at Jane Street but it's hard to tell for sure, and impossible to predict.
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Jan 5, 2019 01:19
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I honestly don't think there's a bad decision to be made here. Do what you think you should do, and if you make a mistake you either had an adventure or a great launching point for a career. Do what you want to do.
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Jan 5, 2019 01:25
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Lockback posted:I honestly don't think there's a bad decision to be made here. Do what you think you should do, and if you make a mistake you either had an adventure or a great launching point for a career. Do what you want to do. Yeah. I keep going back and forth, I logically talk myself into NY - it has so many little advantages and would be so much easier - then I think about how happy I was last term and change my mind. My heart says Japan and my brain says NY and I don't know who to trust right now. Half of me worries about all the little things with Japan (the language barrier, moving, riskier pay, etc), and also is kind of scared that I might be overglamorizing Tokyo just to avoid having to decide what I want to do long term, that it would just be trying to do some dumb gap year fantasy and using touristing to put off having to actually set up a life, make friends, and figure out what I want to do going forward - and that once the touristing wears thin I'll be right back where I started, only down one great job offer. The other half of me says that I really loved Japan, and that I'm just talking myself out of it because I'm scared of all the uncertainty that comes with it - having to find an apartment in a foreign language, not knowing how often I'll be back home, wagering on a small operation being successful and betting that I could get another good offer later.
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Jan 5, 2019 01:27
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The hardest choices to make are always when you are forced to pick only one of two very good and very different options.
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Jan 5, 2019 01:52
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Nippashish posted:The hardest choices to make are always when you are forced to pick only one of two very good and very different options. Yeah, it's like on one hand I get to be safely wealthy in NYC with a nicely setup home and family nearby and on the other hand I get to be paid well to continue adventuring in Japan. Two pretty good choices, yet my drat brain is making me miserable trying to decide between the two. It's two very different seeming but very attractive paths in life and choosing one is hard.
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Jan 5, 2019 02:26
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I'd say Tokyo my dude. But I work in Seoul, so that is where I am coming from. Living and working in the US a big chunk of that change will evaporate into taxes and cost of living. On top of that the general sense of physical safety and security in Japan/Korea is drastic compared to the US. But I am the kind if person content with just Skype calls with the family on holidays. ymmv
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Jan 5, 2019 02:29
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Flip a coin. If it lands and you’re disappointed, you know what you were truly rooting for.
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Jan 5, 2019 02:37
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