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The complaints about nothing happening on a miss were solved by the narrative dice of Edge of the Empire with its 2 axes of stuff happening and probably other systems I’ve never played as well. WotC could have designed a better game but made a conscious decision to stick with their old d20 formula... which frankly was probably the right business decision but still leaves a twinge of disappointment in anyone who has played anything better.
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Jan 4, 2019 05:04
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Toshimo posted:At 6th level, Evokers get Potent Cantrip: Creatures that successfully save against their cantrips take half damage. In a weird bit there is no evocation cantrips that benefit. It's original version was apparently Cantrips dealt half damage on a miss, but the large vocal player base against that resulted in it being changed to half damage on saves. Which the evocation cantrips don't benefit from. (In the original basic rules there was actually no cantrips the wizard learned that benefited from it. And they put a few extra spells in so it was not useless.) Edit: I found three Evocation spells the wizard learns that go off saves. https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/frostbite https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/lightning-lure https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/thunderclap Still a bit of a shame that there is no way to make those two abilities synergize in the PHB. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 06:07 on Jan 4, 2019 |
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Jan 4, 2019 05:55
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MonsterEnvy posted:
All of which are in XGE The only PHB cantrip that benefits is poison spray, which is... not good.
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Jan 4, 2019 06:02
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Panderfringe posted:The only PHB cantrip that benefits is poison spray, which is... not good. Poison Spray is not Evocation.
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Jan 4, 2019 06:05
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Panderfringe posted:All of which are in XGE Acid Splash also benefits. But what's wrong with Poison Spray? Toshimo posted:Poison Spray is not Evocation. It does not need to be Evocation. It just needs to be a cantrip.
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Jan 4, 2019 06:05
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Toshimo posted:Poison Spray is not Evocation.
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Jan 4, 2019 06:09
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it seems like the level 6 effect can apply to any spell school, even if it's not Evocation, as long as it's a cantrip while the level 10 effect needs to be an Evocation spell, but of any spell level the former is pretty limited, but the latter is more obviously broadly applicable
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Jan 4, 2019 06:12
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MonsterEnvy posted:Acid Splash also benefits. But what's wrong with Poison Spray? Very close range and it's poison damage, which is the worst damage type.
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Jan 4, 2019 06:16
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AlphaDog posted:"The feeling of agency is important". Yes. Definitely. I don't think anyone is objecting to that or really even talking about it. Okay let me rephrase myself: Nobody gives one tenth of a dick whether a complete stranger places more value on the illusion of agency or on the mechanical truth. You have different preferences and no amount of failing to understand that is going to make either side change their mind.
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Jan 4, 2019 06:42
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What is this nonsense about "illusion of agency"? There is no illusion here. Even if your action accomplished nothing, you still engaged with the mechanics and took a turn, executing said action. You played the game. You didn't win, but you played. The alternative being discussed here is sitting out.
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Jan 4, 2019 06:57
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koreban posted:One of the most memorable sections of the Drizzt trilogy is him being captured by mind flayers and having to work out an escape. Like, this is in the zeitgeist of D&D. I don't know how to explain to you the difference between what is good storytelling in a novel, and what is engaging in gameplay. The Drizzt captivity would be boring as hell and bad if we had to play it round by round, too. Mind Flayers are fine to have in the game. Taking players out of the game for more than a couple rounds with a single high-probability ability isn't. This is why Maze was such a pain in AD&D. quote:
Taking the Fighter out for 10 minutes was no fun but good tactics. The D20 version is 10 minutes, with a DC20 Int check every round to break free.
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Jan 4, 2019 07:05
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One of my favorite very dumb AD&D things that has never gone away is how minotaurs are somehow supposed to be unusually good at mazes.
Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 08:06 on Jan 4, 2019 |
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Jan 4, 2019 08:03
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AlphaDog posted:One of my favorite very dumb AD&D things that has never gone away is how minotaurs are somehow supposed to be unusually good at mazes. It's a simple and straightforward case of selective pressures at work: only maze-savant minotaurs could escape the labyrinth, reproduce, and populate the world, while all the others lived and died in the labyrinth and never made it out. As a result, all modern minotaurs in the world are descended from a maze-savant ancestor with the instinctive genius to escape the labyrinth. 
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Jan 4, 2019 08:15
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lightrook posted:It's a simple and straightforward case of selective pressures at work: only maze-savant minotaurs could escape the labyrinth, reproduce, and populate the world, while all the others lived and died in the labyrinth and never made it out. As a result, all modern minotaurs in the world are descended from a maze-savant ancestor with the instinctive genius to escape the labyrinth. It's taken all day for the one good post in the 5e thread.
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Jan 4, 2019 08:45
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Liquid Communism posted:I don't know how to explain to you the difference between what is good storytelling in a novel, and what is engaging in gameplay. The Drizzt captivity would be boring as hell and bad if we had to play it round by round, too. I understand the narrative anxiety versus play-stopping ability argument all too well. A few posts ago I posited a couple of minor changes one could apply to make Mind flayers broadly useable. Narrowing their beam area, using cover, spell resistance/inoculation, and a more intelligent use of the creature than “fight until dead” basically solves it without neutering the signature ability of an iconic monster. I think the fundamental disconnect here is based on the following supposition: Should there exist an in-game ability that when successfully applied, either through a successful attack/spell attack roll, or DC save, should effectively “stun,” or otherwise incapacitate a conscious player character for one round of combat or longer, in D&D? There are some folks here that, by their responses seem to be hard “No” proponents on that question. I happen to not agree with them. There’s a good thought experiment to be had as to what constitutes the limit, where an ability shouldn’t be able to exceed a stun duration, but that’s a much more contextually situational dependent discussion and much harder to do in a forum format.
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Jan 4, 2019 09:49
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Generally, one round of combat is fine, although a 75% hit rate AOE that does that would be a powerful ability on its own. Making that last multiple rounds is, given a failure of a surprise roll, a 75% chance of a one shot party wipe. That's worse than the OSR stuff people bitch about being meatgrinders for the sake of meatgrinders. Honestly, my 'fix' for it would simply be to make the AOE deal non-lethal psionic damage. Fits the purpose on the monster of letting them subdue targets to brainmunch while still letting players use the established mechanics for dealing with damage to interact with the results of the attack. Easy peasy.
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Jan 4, 2019 10:28
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So a random change of discussion here. Do other people find warlocks kind of.. bad? Granted he is only at 4th level (after a year of playing an agonisingly slow Lost Mines/Sunless citadel mashup) and I understand EB getting a lot better at lvl5 etc.. but I am just finding the class incredibly limited in scope. I have two spells per encounter really, one of which is going to be Hex which leaves one left for whatever. Pros are having my imp fly around doing neat stuff and some of the invocations/patron bits are nice but I am having far less fun playing my warlock then my Tempest cleric in Curse of Strahd. Ive seen videos of people kind of saying the Warlock isnt a strong class and now im starting to kind of feel the same way. I feel kind of stuck halfway been a martial character without the tankiness and a caster without the utility.
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Jan 4, 2019 15:07
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No Luck Needed posted:what are some good monsters for 4 players level 17? Azhais posted:1d3 Tarrasques I am more thinking 1d2+1 tarrasques. I am a big fan of reskinning monsters. I think the tarrasques are going to be children of dagon, chtulu, or asmodeus or what not. I think they are going to be underwater encased in giant eggs but being underwater these eggs would be covered in coral, plant life, and home to fish so might not be that obvious. Originally there would of be four eggs but a few of them are broken; whatever the parentage, the tarrasques were being created to be world destroyers and the remaining ones were never unleashed. So the players do a thing and unleash the tarrasques, each going separate directions with the players have to corral the monsters into fighting each other big kaiju monster style. Hope the players can make sure all the tarrasques finish each other off or are able to deliver the killing blows so the monsters do not destroy civilization. MonsterEnvy posted:Demons and Devils tend to work well around that range. Because you can now use decently large numbers of the stronger ones. Mords Tome of Foes also has more higher level monsters. I have been using demons and devils as soon as able to that will not be anything new just more powerful. What I am really wondering is if anyone has run or been in even like a one-shot of high level play and if any monsters or encounters stick out to you as the player or the game master.
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Jan 4, 2019 15:11
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Nutsngum posted:Do other people find warlocks kind of.. bad? It kind of depends what your standards are? Like, the Warlock is better than most martials just by dint of EB being more reliable/flexible/magical than weapon attacks, and some utility is better than none, but you're also kinda right that compared to a Cleric or another full caster, they're merely only functional.
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Jan 4, 2019 15:14
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Nutsngum posted:
I had this discussion with folks last night. Warlocks are incredibly frustrating because everything about them is frontloaded and Hexblade is literally the best at everything. So, there's almost never a reason not to take a 2-3 level dip of Hexblade, but going 4+ levels or non-Hexblade is awful. It's a busted class that needs a complete refactor. Also, the core conceit of it being short-rest-based causes narrative problems and friction with other long-rest-based classes.
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Jan 4, 2019 15:20
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Yeah, I gave up playing a straight tomelock after I realized it'd never be as fun as my wizard. I'm having fun now with a sorlock (5 shadow sorc, 3 hexblade, rest sorc) because I can use my sorcery points to buff my blasting and use the extra spell slots I don't convert for utility stuff. There are apparently fun hexblade melee builds but I've never tried it.
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Jan 4, 2019 15:32
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gradenko_2000 posted:It kind of depends what your standards are? Like, the Warlock is better than most martials just by dint of EB being more reliable/flexible/magical than weapon attacks, and some utility is better than none, but you're also kinda right that compared to a Cleric or another full caster, they're merely only functional. Yeah dont get me wrong, as a pure consistent damage dealer I feel like Im gonna be making some sweet sweet DPS pretty soon.. but thats close to all im gonna be doing. My big issue really is that I dont feel like I have the slots to spare in non combat situations. Like my Cleric used sleet storm to put out the bonfire at the Valaki festival and also throw the Baron from his horse which was awesome and fun knowing that I had the option to burn that 3rd lvl slot and still be effective in any ensuing issue. Toshimo posted:I had this discussion with folks last night. Warlocks are incredibly frustrating because everything about them is frontloaded and Hexblade is literally the best at everything. So, there's almost never a reason not to take a 2-3 level dip of Hexblade, but going 4+ levels or non-Hexblade is awful. It's a busted class that needs a complete refactor. The thing is that on paper it seems to line up. By level 17 you get your 4 spell slots (times 3 rests per day is 12) plus the once per day 6th 7th 8th and 9th plus any invocation bonuses VS 19 per day for cleric for example but in actuality you are more limited then your other spellcasters and also ramp up much slower in that utility.
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Jan 4, 2019 15:38
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Nutsngum posted:So a random change of discussion here. I love Warlocks. EB is very high DPR and your patron/Invocation abilities give you incredible utility that mostly makes up for your limited spells but if that's bugging you, you can pick up a subclass for a few more spell slots. The real problems with Warlock are there is one subclass that is far and away better than the others and that it's a 4e class built around At Will and Encounter powers in a game about daily abilities.
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Jan 4, 2019 15:43
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No Luck Needed posted:I am more thinking 1d2+1 tarrasques. I am a big fan of reskinning monsters. I think the tarrasques are going to be children of dagon, chtulu, or asmodeus or what not. I think they are going to be underwater encased in giant eggs but being underwater these eggs would be covered in coral, plant life, and home to fish so might not be that obvious. Originally there would of be four eggs but a few of them are broken; whatever the parentage, the tarrasques were being created to be world destroyers and the remaining ones were never unleashed. So the players do a thing and unleash the tarrasques, each going separate directions with the players have to corral the monsters into fighting each other big kaiju monster style. Hope the players can make sure all the tarrasques finish each other off or are able to deliver the killing blows so the monsters do not destroy civilization. Angels. Players are never ready to have inherently Good things try to roll them, and there's a lot of fun to be had with either 'Good does not mean Nice' or 'Lawful Good when applied fully is indistinguishable from Lawful Evil'.
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Jan 4, 2019 16:21
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lightrook posted:It's a simple and straightforward case of selective pressures at work: only maze-savant minotaurs could escape the labyrinth, reproduce, and populate the world, while all the others lived and died in the labyrinth and never made it out. As a result, all modern minotaurs in the world are descended from a maze-savant ancestor with the instinctive genius to escape the labyrinth. The mythological minotaur was good at the labyrinth. It was his hunting grounds, he was not lost in it. (As you can't get lost in a labyrinth there is only one path.) 
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Jan 4, 2019 16:42
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wasn't the labyrinth built to keep the mythological minotaur inside of it?
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Jan 4, 2019 16:46
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Yes, the mythological labyrinth was a borderline impossible maze designed for the King of Crete to hold the minotaur in until someone could kill the drat thing. There were countless upon countless paths. Theseus needed to smuggle a ball of string there to help him get through it and find his way out again. It was not a linear path at all. Daedalus, the guy who made the labyrinth, could barely find his way out after he made it even!
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Jan 4, 2019 16:51
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gradenko_2000 posted:wasn't the labyrinth built to keep the mythological minotaur inside of it? Supposedly. But from how the labyrinth is depicted it appears he was kept there by the tediousness of getting to the exit or that he enjoyed the home. Minos did send people in for him to eat after all. From checking, the original descriptions had it as a proper maze. But for some reason the one path labyrinth became popular to depict. Dragonatrix posted:Yes, the mythological labyrinth was a borderline impossible maze designed for the King of Crete to hold the minotaur in until someone could kill the drat thing. There were countless upon countless paths. Theseus needed to smuggle a ball of string there to help him get through it and find his way out again. It was not a linear path at all. Daedalus, the guy who made the labyrinth, could barely find his way out after he made it even! Don't think killing the monster was ever a goal for Minos. Given that he could have just let it starve. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Jan 4, 2019 |
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Jan 4, 2019 16:51
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The original descriptions of the Labyrinth were that it was designed with many branching paths and the Minotaur was indeed contained within it because it was confusing and lost. Daedalus, who designed it, supposedly barely escaped it after its construction. It wasn't until later that the single-path structure was associated with it, and that eventually reverted back to the branching-path structure in the Renaissance. So basically yes, it's bizarre that D&D says Minotaurs are good at mazes and really only this provides an explanation: lightrook posted:It's a simple and straightforward case of selective pressures at work: only maze-savant minotaurs could escape the labyrinth, reproduce, and populate the world, while all the others lived and died in the labyrinth and never made it out. As a result, all modern minotaurs in the world are descended from a maze-savant ancestor with the instinctive genius to escape the labyrinth. edit: lmao beaten twice over
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Jan 4, 2019 16:56
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Heh, I do like the “natural selection” reasoning. 
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Jan 4, 2019 17:14
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lightrook posted:It's a simple and straightforward case of selective pressures at work: only maze-savant minotaurs could escape the labyrinth, reproduce, and populate the world, while all the others lived and died in the labyrinth and never made it out. As a result, all modern minotaurs in the world are descended from a maze-savant ancestor with the instinctive genius to escape the labyrinth. this fuckin' rules
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Jan 4, 2019 17:15
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Nutsngum posted:So a random change of discussion here. Warlocks are reliable DPR (well, their EB+AB+Hex B&B is comparable to featless martials at least), so properly built they have alright competence, and in the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king (if everyone else is playing pure martials, they certainly bring in a lot of utility alongside their damage), but it's a very terribly designed and generally boring class held together by flavor text. See, they're sold as casters, but as you noticed they have too few spell slots available to really function as such, even setting aside their over-reliance on 5e's terrible rest mechanics. Instead, by default, they function as archers that shoot force bolts instead of arrows, with a bunch of cantrips for utility and an encounter power tacked on top. They're also presented as being highly customizable, with all those Eldritch Invocation options, but the truth is that half of them belong in the trash bin, and since as established a Warlock is functionally a martial that attacks with magic, the rest of these Invocation picks face stiff opportunity cost with those that grant combat competence. I've seen players who tried to play the class without EB+AB+Hex and it was just  . This lack of real customization is even more egregious on bladelock, who can't spare any EIs at all towards utility.And oh boy, let's not forget about bladelocks, the Warlock option they had to patch with a whole new overtuned patron in order to give it basic competence. And then it turns out you can use that patron with normal Warlock Eldritch Blasting, so why even melee, again? To be an edgy Paladin? Oath of Vengeance already exists. Lastly, just to really rub it in, Warlock also happens to be so front loaded, that whatever it is you're trying to do with them, odds are you can do - better - by taking it as a 1~3 level dip on a different class. Want to Eldritch Blast a whole bunch plus access to spells? Add two levels of Warlock to a Sorcerer. Want to CHA-focus gish? Add one level of Hexblade Patron to a Paladin or Swords Bard. Satisfied with being martial that also gets a lot of cantrip utility and rituals? 3 level tomelock dip on Fighter. The class is just loving stupid, and I say this as someone who has the system mastery to make them work and in a half-way interesting manner. - Now, as I said, it can be built properly and made to fit a niche. You want round-the-clock utility and flavor? Pact of the Tome, and now you have EB+6 other cantrips to gently caress around with @ level 4.. No Wizard in the party? Book of Ancient Secrets and now you can take care of all the ritual needs without compromising on reliable DPR. Fragile, you said? No, you take Hexblade as your patron and now you have Medium Armor + Shield AC. Or you're in a situation where the party needs damage, and healing, and has no Wizard - you can take Celestial patron to get 1+level daily uses of slotless Healing Word plus 2 other cantrips for 9 total at level 4. That's pretty decent. Also, in case it hadn't become apparent given its lack of mention so far, Pact of the Chain is a trap pick so you kinda screwed yourself over with that - Pact of the Tome can take a familiar through BoAS, so that's 90% of what Chain accomplishes while still having all the rest of the Tome goodies on top. But Imps are cool, right? "...boring class is held together by flavor text." Another thing that can be done with it, as I and others mentioned, is multiclass fodder. Right there on the thread title, Sorlock, very good. It's basically what I think you wanted out of playing Warlock, but all it takes is 2-3 levels in Warlock itself and the rest goes into Sorcerer. Either way, if you're not liking what you're playing right now, I'd suggest you ask your DM if you can rebuild.
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Jan 4, 2019 17:45
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Yeah warlocks are boring. In my campaign one of my first time players picked warlock and played it up to level 7 as a straight Tome/BoAS eldritch blast turret and he was getting real bored, even with me throwing him generous amounts of flavor and RP moments with his patron. He decided to fully worship and commit to his patron, Baphomet, and turned evil. The player made a new character and is much happier: a tortle barbarian/bard luchador who specializes in doing sweet holds and throws and wrestling moves.
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Jan 4, 2019 18:12
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I thought about buying into 5e for like 2 days and then I realized I just missed the Realms and if I’m going to play FR I have tons of 3e stuff already. They ain’t got me yet. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 4, 2019 18:16
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My friends playing his first ever 5e campaign and is doing a warlock for 2 levels then all wizard after that and it sounds pretty good to be able to blast away while still getting all the wizard versatility (albeit a bit later)
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Jan 4, 2019 18:28
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I keep feeling like a warlock could be fun in a campaign where you can really lean into Charm Person, Mask of Many Faces and Misty Visions. But in a typical combat heavy game, yeah. You get real bored.
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Jan 4, 2019 19:13
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Pussy Quipped posted:Yeah warlocks are boring. Hex is really, really hard to use because the concentration mechanic makes it clash with virtually every other spell that you'll want to cast. I just hit level 5 so we'll see how things go with me casting hunger of hadar and shoving people into it with my EB. I suspect that fireball is going to be the optimal way to go though. Add on top of this are the eldrich invocations that take one of your two spots to cast a specific spell like bestow curse, like, who would ever choose that? This class is designed for masochists or super heavy RP campaigns where flavor is more important than combat. I've come to really, really hate the concentration mechanic. I get why it was created but it's such a goddamned wet blanket.
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Jan 4, 2019 19:54
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Bhodi posted:I'm in the exact same spot and I've been pretty unhappy with my fiend tomelock. The flavor is excellent but as far as utility and general "fun" goes it's pretty lacking. The lots of cantrips is nice and I'm mostly useful with all the rituals (though having to wait 10 minutes to cast kinda cramps the style during the 'split up and loot' phase as I sit in one place for 10 minutes to cast detect magic and everyone else gets narration of the cool stuff they find) 2 slots is just not enough, especially when Hex uses one basically every day.
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Jan 4, 2019 20:00
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Bhodi posted:Hex is really, really hard to use because the concentration mechanic makes it clash with virtually every other spell that you'll want to cast. I just hit level 5 so we'll see how things go with me casting hunger of hadar and shoving people into it with my EB. I suspect that fireball is going to be the optimal way to go though. Yeah... the big reason you still chuck hex is that (a) It's a bonus action, so your first turn is 2d10(EB)+2d6(HEX) instead of just the 2d6 from Hunger and (b) you can use the 2 invocations that key off hexing. Also, Hex lasts across multiple fights at that level. [sub]Also, secret bonus tech is that you can make foes easier for your martials to grapple, or you can give disadvantage on Initiative to foes before a fight starts. Bhodi posted:Add on top of this are the eldrich invocations that take one of your two spots to cast a specific spell like bestow curse, like, who would ever choose that? This class is designed for masochists or super heavy RP campaigns where flavor is more important than combat. Yeah, all of those feel awful.
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Jan 4, 2019 20:09
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Pussy Quipped posted:2 slots is just not enough, especially when Hex uses one basically every day. I really like the idea of a debuffer class that lifts other party members up, like an anti-bard, but concentration makes that pretty impossible beyond the first few levels and bestow curse and bane isn't even on your spell list (but remove curse is!) Bhodi fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Jan 4, 2019 |
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Jan 4, 2019 20:10
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