CanPol Megathread: Big Changus

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Precambrian Video Games: Aug 19, 2002

Hey remember that time Mulcair said that marginal income tax rates above 50% qualified as confiscation? That was swell.

# ? Jan 5, 2019 05:41

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# ? Jun 4, 2024 03:01

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

What's wrong with confiscation?

# ? Jan 5, 2019 08:38

T.C.: Feb 10, 2004; Believe.

Kraftwerk posted:

Hey thread I need some help dealing with some economic conservatives.

Whenever I debate in favour of higher wages and against austerity I usually deal with “entitlement” responses.

Basically it boils down to “how much do you think a generic warehouse worker deserves to be paid?” And “what if employees have unrealistic expectations and a sense of entitlement.”

The implication is that labour, especially low wage unskilled labour deserves their lot in life and that this is the market value of their labour. It zooms out and basically wins the meta game since any argument you make can be dismissed as being entitled and it paints the business owner as the victim who is trying to work hard and make a buck.

What am I supposed to say here?

Honestly, the main issue if you're going to discuss politics with people is to decide what you think and the basis of that, then just present that. Don't get caught up in framing things their way, winning points, or doing anything like that. Don't default to telling them why they're wrong. Tell them why you think what you think.

You can literally attack minimum wage from hundreds of directions. Here are a bunch of things off the top of my head, not all of which I believe:

Replacement costs - It's completely unreasonable to society for capital to not provide wages that represent replacement cost for their human resources (i.e. enough for them to reasonably sustain their lives and raise a family). Anything less than this is pushing costs to society
Poverty creates a more aggressively coercive Labour/Capital relationship - Without adequate social protections, all labour at less than a reasonable living wage (including an ability to save for the future) is wage slavery. When people do not have enough money to support themselves, they have no ability to act as rational members of a market. They cannot make long term choices that improve their economic future because they are unable to take risks in finding new jobs, training, or doing anything that risks their current status. This also means they have no bargaining power in their current position and even less if they lose employment and look for a new job.
The golden rule or the veil of ignorance - consider the situation many of these people find themselves in an how you would want to be treated in that situation
Not getting murdered in a revolution - Ensuring a minimum standard of living keeps labour happy enough that they aren't willing to aggressively assert their rights in the form of unions or more extreme things
Real life outcomes - case studies generally seem to show increases in minimum wage to, at worst, not hurt the economy and at best help
Fairness - Moralistically, people who are a substantive part in the creation of something deserve a fair share of that creation
Historical precedent - Current minimum wages are lower than historic numbers after accounting for inflation
Dignity - Work is a moral task and those providing it have earned the right to live with dignity
Value - The market sets replacement costs lower, but is a minimum wage worker really providing X% of the value of some other benchmark
Rising Tide - Minimum wages act as a floor for wages. By raising the minimum wage, other people in the lower ranges of wages will eventually see increases as well
Anti-Social Programs / Pro Privatization- Raising minimum wages mean that those recieving minimum wages rely on social programs less. The additional costs can be balanced by lowering taxes. This moves distribution of wealth from the government to market based systems
Futurism - Automation and other tools that can help remove the drudgery of menial tasks are based on whether automation is cheaper than human labour. By raising wages, it encourages Canadian companies to automate these types of jobs, raises economic efficiency and creates jobs for skilled knowledge based workers
Marxist criticism - Excess value is created by labour, which they therefore have a right to

Research, figure out what you think, and then honestly present what you think. Try to maintain your framing while honestly discussing things the other person has to say. You can work in their framework a little, but make sure you make it clear that you're just exploring their side (e.g. "even if that were true it seems like... <blah>").

For example, if you you care about minimum wage because of something like the golden rule and you also think that there are no real downsides to an increase because of historical precident, then deal with their points by pushing and asking questions in that direction. Maybe something like

quote:

"I grew up with a pretty good safety network from my family and I was able to get my feet under me without worrying about what could go wrong with my life. I feel like other people deserve the ability to get a foot in the door and live a reasonable life. I know that without my safety network, I could be there too. People can't reasonably survive on their wages after working 3 part time jobs for sixty hours. In that situation, I don't see how I could improve my life or get out of that hole. You're saying that people should get paid what the market wants to pay them, but we had higher effective minimum wages in previous decades and economic growth was strong. I don't think the market relationship is as hard and fast as you think it is. We've managed to do it before, so why can't we treat people reasonably today? ."

If things stay in the other person's framework of thinking, you aren't going to change their mind. You probably won't change their mind regardless. You may get people thinking about larger picture thing and other points of view, though, if you approach them from a new direction without being a dick about it. Even if you've given them something to think about, people are pretty stubborn, so it can take a while. I have a couple of friends who still hold fast on opinions that are part of their self identities, but have realistically moved away from the beliefs that got them there because of conversations that pushed their frameworks. Maybe you won't convince them that minimum wage is a problem, but you might be moving their point of view in a way that they'll start considering social programs or other support systems beneficial.

I'm not saying you have to be congenial to assholes. You can ramp up the intensity of this sort of discussion without changing the gist of it.

On the other hand, If you parrot other people's arguments you're just spewing talking points and it's not going to help. If you've gotten to that point, you're solidly in the "out yell and confuse the other guy so third parties think you know better" scenario. There's a place for it, but you can quickly look like a jackass. Also, if you don't know your poo poo and someone else does (or sometimes if they're just more bullheaded than you and you can't think on your feet fast enough), you can get your rear end handed to you and you end up looking like a parrot. I'm not sure I've ever really convinced someone of something this way, but there's sometimes a value in going full on heels in the ground on a viewpoint to stop people from steamrolling a point of view. I think you can generally do that in a more productive way, though.

The key is to discuss things that you honestly believe and understand presented in a framework that reflects your worldview. Also, know when to walk away because it isn't worth the emotional energy.

edit: Oh, for this specific issue, it's not a bad idea to ask reasonably early on whether the current minimum wage is right (i.e. "Okay, if the minimum wage shouldn't be increased is that because the current minimum wage is right as it is? Why is that the right number?"). It lets you know if you're actually arguing about a minimum wage increase, or about whether a minimum wage should exist. You'll get some people who double down on their arguments and say it shouldn't exist. Some people who defend the status quo. Some people who will have some combination of responses. Others who think the present is different from the past for a variety of reasons. You'll also get a reasonable number of people pause to think, because people forget that the status quo isn't some universal constant.

T.C. fucked around with this message at 13:47 on Jan 5, 2019

# ? Jan 5, 2019 13:24

Martian Manfucker: Dec 27, 2012; misandry is real

the argument is an ethical and a moral one so if they don't agree that people, no matter their station, country of origin, etc. are worthy of having their basic needs met without enduring untold suffering then I mean what can you do but call them bloodless freaks and mark their name down on a list

# ? Jan 5, 2019 17:51

vincentpricesboner: Sep 3, 2006; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

Martian Manfucker posted:

the argument is an ethical and a moral one so if they don't agree that people, no matter their station, country of origin, etc. are worthy of having their basic needs met without enduring untold suffering then I mean what can you do but call them bloodless freaks and mark their name down on a list

Some people get mad that poors can afford a fridge. Pretty hosed up way to see the world, thats for sure.

# ? Jan 5, 2019 18:28

CRISPYBABY: Dec 15, 2007; by Reene

eXXon posted:

Hey remember that time Mulcair said that marginal income tax rates above 50% qualified as confiscation? That was swell.

It's not confiscation, but it is the magic number that tends to make the entire country hate you. I think it should be higher as well, but effectively pushing marginal tax rates above 50% goes beyond policy and turns into a serious PR challenge.

S/O to capitalism for making people care way too fuckin much about marginal tax rates that don't affect them. Voters hear the percentage and panic and don't pay attention to the fact that it's only affecting .01% of the country in an income bracket making 10 million dollars a year more than you but drat sounds like some government overreach into the pockets of hard working Canadians, am I right?

# ? Jan 5, 2019 18:46

apatheticman: May 13, 2003; Wedge Regret

Biggest problem arguing with someone about minimum wage is most people still think this is a meritocracy. Therefore, anyone who is making minimum wage is a failure and not worth supporting because they would have had a better job.

Especially true for older people when they are like "just walk into a place that you want to work at and ask if you can help".

Any evidence to the contrary and their eyes glaze over because their reality bubbles have so engrained them in that thinking any opposition is dismissed as SJW bullshit.

If you are lucky they can start quoting an article they saw on the Rebel and you can dismiss any aspect of changing their mind.

90% of people do not want to have an argument, they want their soapbox moment and make themselves feel superior because of their obviously correct beliefs. Don't waste your time unless they've shown a willingness to actually listen to and comprehend your points otherwise you will drive yourself crazy.

# ? Jan 5, 2019 19:21

JawKnee: Mar 24, 2007; You'll take the ride to leave this town along that yellow line

Martian Manfucker posted:

the argument is an ethical and a moral one so if they don't agree that people, no matter their station, country of origin, etc. are worthy of having their basic needs met without enduring untold suffering then I mean what can you do but call them bloodless freaks and mark their name down on a list

There is absolutely an argument that can be made from utility for this, and it has to do with disposable income and it's role in consumption; have a look at what has happened in Seattle - rather than killing jobs and businesses, more people have been hired and businesses are thriving - partially because people who didn't have any extra disposable income suddenly did, and are spending it. Tax cuts to the wealthy don't help the economy, paying people at the bottom more does.

# ? Jan 5, 2019 19:25

Pinterest Mom: Jun 9, 2009

Femtosecond posted:

With all this chat of Ignatieff over the last few pages it made me curious to dig up his platform [PDF] and boy is it terrible.

Please recall that it was marketed as "The Liberal Family Pack".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlb1qGRJ-10

# ? Jan 6, 2019 00:32

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

Like shopping at Costco, but it's your party's platform.

# ? Jan 6, 2019 00:34

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Costco has good hotdogs when you shop there, what does the Liberal Party offer?

# ? Jan 6, 2019 00:35

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

Discounts on bulk neoliberalism?

# ? Jan 6, 2019 00:44

apatheticman: May 13, 2003; Wedge Regret

infernal machines posted:

Discounts on bulk neoliberalism?

Social progress!

_{*Not actual size}

# ? Jan 6, 2019 00:49

PhilippAchtel: May 31, 2011

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/education/article-educating-grayson-are-inclusive-classrooms-failing-students/

quote:

The Globe and Mail: Educating Grayson: Are inclusive classrooms failing students?

Lisa Kahn developed a daily routine this fall. She’d eat breakfast, feed her family and get her two children ready for school – Grayson, a seven-year-old boy with strawberry blond hair and blue eyes, and his older sister, Avery. After she dropped them off, she’d practise deep breathing with help from an app on her watch.

And then she would brace herself for the phone call.

At some point during the day, she knew that Grayson’s school was likely to call and ask her to pick him up because he was causing trouble. If she made it through the day without the phone ringing, she’d steel herself at pickup for a staff member to approach and tell her about something awful her son had done.

Ms. Kahn had hoped the school could accommodate Grayson’s developmental disorder – he was diagnosed with autism in the summer of 2017, and while he’s verbal and can impressively add figures in his head, he becomes aggressive if rules change or the work becomes too difficult.

But in September, he was suspended for part of the day after attempting to push an educational assistant down the stairs. A couple of weeks later, he picked up a chair and tossed it at another child. On other occasions, he punched, shoved, kicked and threatened staff and other students, school administrators say.

And then in late October, everything boiled over. After an incident when Grayson struck an educational assistant, leaving her with bruises, scrapes and a concussion, the seven-year-old was expelled from school.

Now Ms. Kahn and her husband Dave are scrambling to piece together a new plan for educating Grayson, who they firmly believe belongs in the public school system.

“Not only has he been stripped of all his peer connections,” says Ms. Kahn, “but he’s been stripped of his right to an education.”

The Kahns have filed a complaint with the Human Rights Tribunal of Ontario and they’ve appealed the expulsion. For now, at least, they’re keeping Grayson at home, and up until recently, the school district was providing him with home instruction. Ms. Kahn now works with him daily, doing lessons in reading, writing and math.

It’s an imperfect solution for their son, they say, and makes it difficult for both of them to work during the daytime.

Grayson plays a table-soccer game with his father, Dave, at home on a school day. The administrators at Grayson’s school, John McCrae Public School in Guelph, Ont., say that they can’t safely accommodate him.

The family’s experience highlights the growing challenges that parents – and educators – face when it comes to accommodating special-needs children in the public school system. Over the past few decades, schools across Canada have moved toward a model of inclusive education, but many are struggling to find the best ways to include children with complex needs in regular classrooms.

...

The article goes on to discuss various perspectives, but the take away is that schools just don't have the resources to support these students. The children get shuttled off to where they have the least effect on anyone else and no has to think about them or accommodate them any more - unless their parents are upper middle class and have the means to home or private school them.

It's all so sad because the big promise of automation was supposed to be more resources for the things machines can't do, like child and elder care. What's the excuse in such a rich country that we toss these kids away, thereby squandering whatever unique talents they might develop into adulthood?

Edit: Not to mention the skills of the parent who leaves work to support/teach their child full time.

PhilippAchtel fucked around with this message at 02:26 on Jan 6, 2019

# ? Jan 6, 2019 02:15

vincentpricesboner: Sep 3, 2006; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

I feel terrible for the kid but I also feel terrible for the staff. From horror stories from a few of my teacher friends of how they are so overwhelmed with students and don't have enough special assistants for all the special needs students. Not to mention the fellow students that are going to class in fear of him having another outburst and injuring a teacher or throwing chairs at fellow students.

When I was in school the autistic kids were in their own class that had 3 or 4 staff in it for 12 students. Maybe the inclusive approach isn't the right one for aggressive students? Just from a labour point of view, its pretty hosed up the teacher got a concussion from a person at work.

vincentpricesboner fucked around with this message at 02:35 on Jan 6, 2019

# ? Jan 6, 2019 02:29

The Butcher: Apr 20, 2005; Well, at least we tried.; Nap Ghost

PhilippAchtel posted:

It's all so sad because the big promise of automation was supposed to be more resources for the things machines can't do, like child and elder care.

Automation and AI are two totally different things.

The promise of automation has always been about replacing "human robot" assembly line (and their non-factory similar) jobs. And we are pretty drat good at that.

But for AI, we have nothing even close to human level intelligence, and won't for a long time.

Having a lifter robot to pluck grandma from her bed so the nurse doesn't strain her back is one thing.

Having a nurse robot that can choose to lie, and console dementia afflicted Edith that her husband who died 20 years ago is still alive and visited her yesterday, or a robot that knows the specifics of Timmy's autism strengths and triggers and how to best talk him out of a shutdown is miles beyond anything we can do.

Both of those tasks aren't even easy for professionally trained humans.

# ? Jan 6, 2019 03:56

ChairMaster: Aug 22, 2009; by R. Guyovich

Truly shocking that nobody gives enough of a poo poo to fund schools well enough to provide an education to all the kids that need it. It's almost like our country doesn't give a poo poo about social services anymore. I wonder why.

# ? Jan 6, 2019 09:22

PhilippAchtel: May 31, 2011

The Butcher posted:

Automation and AI are two totally different things.

The promise of automation has always been about replacing "human robot" assembly line (and their non-factory similar) jobs. And we are pretty drat good at that.

But for AI, we have nothing even close to human level intelligence, and won't for a long time.

Having a lifter robot to pluck grandma from her bed so the nurse doesn't strain her back is one thing.

Having a nurse robot that can choose to lie, and console dementia afflicted Edith that her husband who died 20 years ago is still alive and visited her yesterday, or a robot that knows the specifics of Timmy's autism strengths and triggers and how to best talk him out of a shutdown is miles beyond anything we can do.

Both of those tasks aren't even easy for professionally trained humans.

I'm not talking about directly replacing those jobs.

When you automate away, say, a factory position, that person can move on to be productive in another area. There should be knock on effects throughout the economy as more people move away from manufacturing as their area of focus to support and service positions. And we have seen that, but what I'm saying is that in an economy focused around our service sector, it's pathetic that we choose to devote so little resources to child and elder care and instead force parents and the elderly to fend for themselves.

# ? Jan 6, 2019 10:56

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

It occurs to me that the people who are most vulnerable to being replaced by automation might not have the skillset nor the desire to provide care to special needs children or the elderly.

# ? Jan 6, 2019 12:58

PhilippAchtel: May 31, 2011

PT6A posted:

It occurs to me that the people who are most vulnerable to being replaced by automation might not have the skillset nor the desire to provide care to special needs children or the elderly.

What, a former factory worker or farmer would be incapable of taking care of children or the elderly? Or have no desire to make it their life's work to care for others if unshackled from the drudgery of our work-to-live wage system?

You're such a classist twat, you know that?

# ? Jan 6, 2019 13:08

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

PhilippAchtel posted:

What, a former factory worker or farmer would be incapable of taking care of children or the elderly? Or have no desire to make it their life's work to care for others if unshackled from the drudgery of our work-to-live wage system?

You're such a classist twat, you know that?

Absolutely some former factory workers or farmers might be capable of it and want to do it, but those are very demanding jobs that cause burnout even in people who are highly motivated to do them. I have a cousin with autism and I've watched my grandmother and a family friend succumb to dementia. Dealing with things like that is extremely difficult, and I don't think it's classist to say that most people could not cope with doing it on a continuing basis. It applies equally to the rich and the poor, the educated and the uneducated.

The people who can do it effectively, and want to do it, should be far better compensated than they are, but it's not a solution to joblessness created by automation.

# ? Jan 6, 2019 13:20

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

PhilippAchtel posted:

What, a former factory worker or farmer would be incapable of taking care of children or the elderly? Or have no desire to make it their life's work to care for others if unshackled from the drudgery of our work-to-live wage system?

You're such a classist twat, you know that?

Speaking from experience I would not entrust most working class trash with their own immediate family members, let alone other people's loved ones.

For every decently intelligent and empathetic tradesman there are fifty blue collar trashfires on their third marriage, fifth child, eighth trip through rehab and ninth conviction for something heinous. Unfortunately they only have two braincells to manage all of the above with. But sure, let's retrain them to be care workers, I'm sure that'll go really well.

loving out of touch hippies, SMFH.

# ? Jan 6, 2019 13:45

PhilippAchtel: May 31, 2011

PT6A posted:

Absolutely some former factory workers or farmers might be capable of it and want to do it, but those are very demanding jobs that cause burnout even in people who are highly motivated to do them. I have a cousin with autism and I've watched my grandmother and a family friend succumb to dementia. Dealing with things like that is extremely difficult, and I don't think it's classist to say that most people could not cope with doing it on a continuing basis. It applies equally to the rich and the poor, the educated and the uneducated.

The people who can do it effectively, and want to do it, should be far better compensated than they are, but it's not a solution to joblessness created by automation.

You specifically said, "it occurs to me that the people who are most vulnerable to being replaced by automation..."

Stick with what you really believe, because you're not fooling anyone with this backpedaling.

Rime posted:

Speaking from experience I would not entrust most working class trash with their own immediate family members, let alone other people's loved ones.

For every decently intelligent and empathetic tradesman there are fifty blue collar trashfires on their third marriage, fifth child, eighth trip through rehab and ninth conviction for something heinous. Unfortunately they only have two braincells to manage all of the above with. But sure, let's retrain them to be care workers, I'm sure that'll go really well.

loving out of touch hippies, SMFH.

Oh my.

PhilippAchtel fucked around with this message at 14:04 on Jan 6, 2019

# ? Jan 6, 2019 14:00

Precambrian Video Games: Aug 19, 2002

Rime posted:

Speaking from experience I would not entrust most working class trash with their own immediate family members, let alone other people's loved ones.

For every decently intelligent and empathetic tradesman there are fifty blue collar trashfires on their third marriage, fifth child, eighth trip through rehab and ninth conviction for something heinous. Unfortunately they only have two braincells to manage all of the above with. But sure, let's retrain them to be care workers, I'm sure that'll go really well.

loving out of touch hippies, SMFH.

You should definitely run for public office. This attitude will go over really well.

# ? Jan 6, 2019 14:16

az: Dec 2, 2005

]FUnd der fynbos your yrd]frfrtrtrfyt/yffxyyyxxdsydyyrr/ygzxzgxyy

# ? Jan 6, 2019 14:28

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

eXXon posted:

You should definitely run for public office. This attitude will go over really well.

You should work construction for a while and see the sea of scum which your comfy ivory tower floats on top of. :shrug:

# ? Jan 6, 2019 14:29

MA-Horus: Dec 3, 2006; I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am.

az posted:

]FUnd der fynbos your yrd]frfrtrtrfyt/yffxyyyxxdsydyyrr/ygzxzgxyy

Best post in this thread in a while.

# ? Jan 6, 2019 14:52

Danaru: Jun 5, 2012; 何 ??

Rime posted:

You should work construction for a while and see the sea of scum which your comfy ivory tower floats on top of.

You ate repeated probations and a ban because you can't stop expressing how much you want to sterilize or otherwise exterminate poor/working class/tropical people, I'm gonna take the safe bet and not bank on your definition of a lovely person

# ? Jan 6, 2019 16:00

Danaru: Jun 5, 2012; 何 ??

"I'm just saying, certain people just aren't empathetic enough to lead normal lives like I am"
*I place down the stack of papers I'm holding to reveal my shirt says "EUGENICS" in 72 point impact font*

# ? Jan 6, 2019 16:08

UnknownMercenary: Nov 1, 2011; I LIKE IT
WAY WAY TOO LOUD

I'm already sick of 2019 https://twitter.com/OmarMosleh/status/1081626262291009536

# ? Jan 6, 2019 16:14

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

PT6A you're also looking at this in a very short-term way, but it's not like automation is some new thing. If we'd been thinking long-term and planned for these kinds of shifts decades ago, when we already knew they were happening, we could have been raising a generation that expects to work in roles like childhood education and elder care, instead of raising a generation that expects to work the same factory jobs as their parents only to find that the factory closed as soon as they hit working age. But we didn't, and we still aren't, and instead we're cutting the funding that would let people do so. It's great long-term thinking, as usual, by our wonderful elite leadership class :thumbsup:

# ? Jan 6, 2019 16:53

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

Presented without comment

https://twitter.com/OmarYKhan/status/1081916275901685760

# ? Jan 6, 2019 16:55

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

infernal machines posted:

Presented without comment

https://twitter.com/OmarYKhan/status/1081916275901685760

lmao

# ? Jan 6, 2019 16:56

PhilippAchtel: May 31, 2011

Mods, please change my name to "Cannabis Consultant".

# ? Jan 6, 2019 17:04

Postess with the Mostest: Apr 4, 2007; Arabian nights
'neath Arabian moons
A fool off his guard
could fall and fall hard
out there on the dunes

Danaru posted:

"I'm just saying, certain people just aren't empathetic enough to lead normal lives like I am"
*I place down the stack of papers I'm holding to reveal my shirt says "EUGENICS" in 72 point impact font*

You could statistically look at it like 40% of Canadians voted conservative and low income/low education are more likely to be conservative so let's say "do you really want a 6/10 chance to have a person whose brain voted stephen harper taking care of your autistic kid or demented grandma?" I think's that's one of the last demographics we're allowed to openly ~~disparage~~ deplore.

# ? Jan 6, 2019 17:54

Precambrian Video Games: Aug 19, 2002

When I think of early childhood education workers the demographic that comes to mind is old white men for sure.

# ? Jan 6, 2019 18:01

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

Are we really gonna act like ECE and elder care (and social services in general) don't require a rather particular temperament and skill set?

# ? Jan 6, 2019 18:06

Pinterest Mom: Jun 9, 2009

infernal machines posted:

Presented without comment

https://twitter.com/OmarYKhan/status/1081916275901685760

"Blair and his New Labour successor Gordon Brown went on to win four consecutive election victories."

:thunk:

"Closer to home, our former prime minister Jean Chretien, who often describes himself as a �radical centrist,� knows a thing or two about beating Conservatives."
lmao

I guess the hypothesis here is that Martin lost in 2006 because he strayed too far left??

Pinterest Mom fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Jan 6, 2019

# ? Jan 6, 2019 18:09

Postess with the Mostest: Apr 4, 2007; Arabian nights
'neath Arabian moons
A fool off his guard
could fall and fall hard
out there on the dunes

infernal machines posted:

Are we really gonna act like ECE and elder care (and social services in general) don't require a rather particular temperament and skill set?

The people who pay them certainly do.

# ? Jan 6, 2019 18:11

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 4, 2024 03:01

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

Pinterest Mom posted:

I guess the hypothesis here is that Martin lost in 2006 because he strayed too far left??

Well, it's an op ed in The Toronto Sun, so yeah, that's a reasonable guess.

Postess with the Mostest posted:

The people who pay them certainly do.

Yeah... I'm sure there's no negative patient care outcomes because of it...

I mean, what could possibly go wrong if we just grab Joe/Jane Bloggs out of the general workforce and stuff them in a high-stress environment that requires constant care and attention for multiple often vulnerable and needy people? Probably nothing, right?

infernal machines fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Jan 6, 2019

# ? Jan 6, 2019 18:12

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > CanPol Megathread: Big Changus

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