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Paradoxish posted:USPOL: At some point it's not really about politics anymore. EDIT for the tax man:  He was stung by a bee and was sleeping it off. 
Syrnn fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Jan 6, 2019 |
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Jan 6, 2019 19:11
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qkkl posted:Throughout history the purpose of walls has been for self-defense, so I'm not sure why no one has told Trump he could just use a tiny amount of the US's vast military funds to build the wall. This is not at all how the government works.
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Jan 6, 2019 19:12
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Dapper_Swindler posted:the house was the death cult more then the senate though they still have the suicide caucus in the senate. the senate GOP is more "smarter" evil then the house zealots. i think the senate GOP is gonna throw in the towel on this issue and just pass it and then let trump take the blame when he kills it. then pass it veto proof. Yeah, I think if anyone caves it's going to be Senate Republicans. On the other hand, it's still hard for me to picture enough of them jumping ship to actually get by a veto.
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Jan 6, 2019 19:12
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Paradoxish posted:Yeah, I think if anyone caves it's going to be Senate Republicans. On the other hand, it's still hard for me to picture enough of them jumping ship to actually get by a veto. The only person who has to cave is McConnell. If he caves, the bill gets passed and the fire is on Trump.
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Jan 6, 2019 19:14
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KillHour posted:Because his job is to suck Trump's dick, and he knows it. He knows he can hold the bill up forever with no political consequences, but as soon as it goes to the resolute desk, peole will be paying attention. Isn’t this pretty easily rectified by a chorus of Democrats pointing out that McConnell is blocking even a vote in the Senate?
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Jan 6, 2019 19:15
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Zwabu posted:Isn’t this pretty easily rectified by a chorus of Democrats pointing out that McConnell is blocking even a vote in the Senate? LOL at the Democrats doing this and LOL at the media reporting it as anything except passing blame. This poo poo is on the media for focusing on Trump instead of McConnell.
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Jan 6, 2019 19:16
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Zwabu posted:Isn’t this pretty easily rectified by a chorus of Democrats pointing out that McConnell is blocking even a vote in the Senate? Yes this is happening but the media is going all out to paint this as both sides, so getting the message out is tough!
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Jan 6, 2019 19:16
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DarkHorse posted:If the bill came up for a vote I bet you'd get a bunch of others to flip. he will fold. i am sure he is getting a ton of poo poo from his fellow gop senators from loseble states as well as some red ones. he doesn't even believe in the wall, he is just doing it because trumps tantrum.
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Jan 6, 2019 19:16
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SocketWrench posted:4k known or suspected terrorists? What the gently caress? We should be drowning in bombings but the only we have are right wing nutters that were born here Maybe they mean white nationalist militia members returning from cruises or thailand or wherever they go
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Jan 6, 2019 19:18
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Dapper_Swindler posted:he will fold. i am sure he is getting a ton of poo poo from his fellow gop senators from loseble states as well as some red ones. he doesn't even believe in the wall, he is just doing it because trumps tantrum. He's doing it because he's afraid of Trump's base. That's the only reason for any of this.
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Jan 6, 2019 19:18
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KillHour posted:He's doing it because he's afraid of Trump's base. That's the only reason for any of this. but he has to know those assholes are a minority of the gop base. if he passes it, they will be more mad at trump.
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Jan 6, 2019 19:19
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Paradoxish posted:I think there's a hypothetical point where Democrats give in simply because of how real and serious the damage from a prolonged shutdown will be. I'm also pretty confident that either Trump or Senate Republicans will blink long before then, but if Republicans are actually enough of a death cult to let this continue for months then I think Democrats have no choice but to find a way out. At some point it's not really about politics anymore. In my opinion the problem with the Democrats caving is because it will 99.9% lead to Trump flat out refusing to do anything every time he wants something. This time it's a government shutdown over a wall. Who knows what levers of power he can find to just blatantly harm Americans until Democrats cave out of humanity and care for their country and its citizens. He has to be shown that this doesn't work as a method for him getting his way, otherwise we really are entering a new level of threshold in our broken democracy. What's to stop him from doing something like this over one of his crack-brained, extreme foreign policy decisions? While the wall is the surface issue here, I believe that this is Trump truly testing the waters to see if he can use brute force and holding our democracy in jeapordy to shore up more unilateral power.
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Jan 6, 2019 19:19
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Dapper_Swindler posted:but he has to know those assholes are a minority of the gop base. if he passes it, they will be more mad at trump. Maybe nationally but this motherfucker is a senator from Kentucky and those are the ONLY Americans he cares about. The entire country is being held hostage by KENTUCKY.
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Jan 6, 2019 19:21
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If he passes a bill Trump doesn't sign, fault for the shutdown 110% goes onto republicans in the eyes of literally everyone. As opposed to just almost everyone currently.
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Jan 6, 2019 19:21
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Maybe they mean white nationalist militia members returning from cruises or thailand or wherever they go By far the biggest groups of terrorists they have to track are environmental related ones. Unless that's changed in the last decade. I know it was still the case even after 9/11.
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Jan 6, 2019 19:21
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heyitsamanda posted:In my opinion the problem with the Democrats caving is because will 99.9% lead to Trump flat out refusing to do anything every time he wants something. This time it's a government shutdown over a wall. Who knows what levers of power he can find to just blatantly harm Americans until Democrats cave out of humanity and care for their country and its citizens. He has to be shown that this doesn't work as a method for him getting his way, otherwise we really are entering a new level of threshold in our broken democracy. What's to stop him from doing something like this over one of his crack-brained, extreme foreign policy decisions? while i sorta of agree. i think your looking at that way too deeply. its more like a screaming kid wanting something from the store. if you cave, he knows he can get away with it then.
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Jan 6, 2019 19:21
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ought ten posted:This is not at all how the government works. Yeah the sheer logistics of what would be necessary to push it through as a military project on National security grounds are staggering. The military is a machine for eating money, but every dollar assigned to it actually goes somewhere to pay someone: soldiers, factory workers, engineers, drivers, and contractors. Most of them are spread as far across the country as humanly possible to get funding to as many congressional districts as possible, because that’s how you secure the votes for a military boondoggle. To divert those funds to the wall without congressional approval would require either putting hundreds of thousands of existing workers out of work in breach of contract, or asking hundreds of thousands of new workers to agree to work on credit pending congressional budgetary approval, which, as you might imagine, isn’t likely.
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Jan 6, 2019 19:21
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KillHour posted:Maybe nationally but this motherfucker is a senator from Kentucky and those are the ONLY Americans he cares about. The entire country is being held hostage by KENTUCKY. More like Can'tucky.
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Jan 6, 2019 19:24
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:Yeah the sheer logistics of what would be necessary to push it through as a military project on National security grounds are staggering. The military is a machine for eating money, but every dollar assigned to it actually goes somewhere to pay someone: soldiers, factory workers, engineers, drivers, and contractors. Most of them are spread as far across the country as humanly possible to get funding to as many congressional districts as possible, because that’s how you secure the votes for a military boondoggle. also the military/pentagon doesn't want to do it. they view it as giant stupid waste of money and manpower and time that wouldn't solve poo poo. if trump tries to force it, alot of resignations will happen.
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Jan 6, 2019 19:24
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Dapper_Swindler posted:also the military/pentagon doesn't want to do it. they view it as giant stupid waste of money and manpower and time that wouldn't solve poo poo. if trump tries to force it, alot of resignations will happen. ah yes, similar to the resignations happening so far that have stopped precisely what exactly?
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Jan 6, 2019 19:26
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Tatsuta Age posted:ah yes, similar to the resignations happening so far that have stopped precisely what exactly? Probably a lot of crazy poo poo, it's not exactly possible to access that counterfactual scenario
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Jan 6, 2019 19:29
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Tatsuta Age posted:ah yes, similar to the resignations happening so far that have stopped precisely what exactly? Wall, parade, war with Iran, escalation in Syria, escalation at the Mexican border, all those things goons claimed were inevitable but didn’t happen amid extremely public military protest. You can’t exactly prove a negative but if you think military leadership has been rolling over for everything you’re a loving moron.
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Jan 6, 2019 19:29
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This shutdown is it, it’s the first real test of the GOP as a party owning consequences for throwing in with Trump. The party will bear consequences no matter what course is taken from here, it already is if you look at the midterm results. But whether the Senate forces Trump to veto and whether they override such a veto would be the first test of them beginning to back away from the utter senseless destructiveness of this man. If they continue with not voting, or vote down a CR, then they are unambiguously saying “we are in with Trump even if it leads all of us to disaster in 2020 and the country to ruin in the meantime”. In the immediate short term that is the position they are taking. Federal employees missing a paycheck and getting evicted or foreclosed and then people missing their tax refund will be inflection points that massively ramp up the pressure against a shutdown. I don’t expect that Trump himself has a plan. I wonder if McConnell has one. His immediate best option is if the Democrats knuckle under, that lets the GOP and Trump off the hook entirely and would allow Trump in addition to (falsely) paint the shutdown as due to Democrats as well as crow over a victory and have the ability to take the country hostage over whatever he wants going forward. If it becomes clear over a week or two the Dems will not yield then I don’t see how he has a choice other than let the Senate vote.
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Jan 6, 2019 19:30
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Tatsuta Age posted:ah yes, similar to the resignations happening so far that have stopped precisely what exactly? I know Trump's support among my CHUD acquaintances got a lot shakier after Mattis resigned. That's not to say they're aren't still going to bat for him, but they've gone from full-throated support to quiet support to grudging "well he's trying..." equivocations. I'm probably way off base because people have been predicting the collapse of his base for ages, but I really do sense a sea-change currently in the works. The military resigning in significant numbers would be a big blow to a lot of his more solid support.
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Jan 6, 2019 19:32
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heyitsamanda posted:He has to be shown that this doesn't work as a method for him getting his way, otherwise we really are entering a new level of threshold in our broken democracy. What's to stop him from doing something like this over one of his crack-brained, extreme foreign policy decisions? Nothing, but there's nothing stopping him now. Mitch McConnell's stated position is to literally just rubber stamp things that Trump wants, so the system is already broken because the legislative check that's supposed to exist isn't functioning. The way you unfuck this is to have Republicans stop being afraid of the toddler in the oval office and start doing their jobs. If that can't happen then sooner or later you have to do whatever it takes to fund the whole government because the immediate consequences of not doing that after months are really loving bad. Herstory Begins Now posted:If he passes a bill Trump doesn't sign, fault for the shutdown 110% goes onto republicans in the eyes of literally everyone. As opposed to just almost everyone currently. The blame shifts to Trump in this case. Passing a CR through the Senate (even without it being veto proof) is the best way to shift most of the blame away from Republicans as a whole. Americans don't really pay attention to who votes for what and the only thing that's going to be reported is that a bipartisan CR made it out of the Senate. The fact that Mitch McConnell is apparently not interested in doing that is... interesting.
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Jan 6, 2019 19:34
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Paradoxish posted:Nothing, but there's nothing stopping him now. Mitch McConnell's stated position is to literally just rubber stamp things that Trump wants, so the system is already broken because the legislative check that's supposed to exist isn't functioning. The way you unfuck this is to have Republicans stop being afraid of the toddler in the oval office and start doing their jobs. If that can't happen then sooner or later you have to do whatever it takes to fund the whole government because the immediate consequences of not doing that after months are really loving bad. It would be the first clear break in the alliance between Trump and the GOP. Mitch is trying to delay that moment and hope that the Dems shoot themselves in the foot and he can avoid the moment entirely.
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Jan 6, 2019 19:39
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Paradoxish posted:The blame shifts to Trump in this case. Passing a CR through the Senate (even without it being veto proof) is the best way to shift most of the blame away from Republicans as a whole. Americans don't really pay attention to who votes for what and the only thing that's going to be reported is that a bipartisan CR made it out of the Senate. The fact that Mitch McConnell is apparently not interested in doing that is... interesting. 1) Get the country to blame Democrats for the shutdown 2) If 1 is impossible, get the country to blame Trump and not Senate Republicans for the shutdown By saying that he won't vote for anything that Trump doesn't support, he vaguely sides with Republicans without taking an actual position or doing anything politically risky. If the Senate passes a bipartisan CR, you're right that the only thing that's going to be reported is that CR getting passed... until Trump vetoes it. And then: Zwabu posted:It would be the first clear break in the alliance between Trump and the GOP. Mitch is trying to delay that moment and hope that the Dems shoot themselves in the foot and he can avoid the moment entirely.
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Jan 6, 2019 19:41
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It’s been over two weeks and the Dems have only hardened their stance. When you have Chuck a Schumer dunking on Trump both in person and on Twitter that tells you something.
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Jan 6, 2019 19:42
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TheOneAndOnlyT posted:
Or flipping over onto his back.
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Jan 6, 2019 19:44
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Zwabu posted:It would be the first clear break in the alliance between Trump and the GOP. Mitch is trying to delay that moment and hope that the Dems shoot themselves in the foot and he can avoid the moment entirely. Exactly, there are four basic outcomes to this shutdown debacle: 1) Dems cave - Trump gets what he wants and learns shutdowns are a viable way of doing that, Dems get blamed for shutdown (because they were able to end it by relenting), future shutdowns are inevitable when Trump doesn't get what he wants 2) Donnie caves - very unlikely, but the guy is fickle as hell and might give in for some kind of fig leaf. However, he probably loses a ton of support from his base unless he can convince them he got everything he wanted despite being the one that relented. 3) McConnell caves - either outrage from his fellow (R) Senators or voters forces him to put a clean CR to a vote and shift the issue onto Trump's desk. This spares Republicans, but throws the blame onto Trump and divides pro-Wall/Trump and pro-Country Republicans, a fissure that will continue to grow knowing Donnie's temperament and weakening them into 2020 4) Nobody caves, America descends into a chaos, 1000 years of Jeb! rule of darkness begins McConnell is going to delay 3) as long as possible, because their alliance to Trump has been a source of strength with the primarying base
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Jan 6, 2019 19:47
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Acebuckeye13 posted:Jesus Christ I cannot tell you how much I detest this motherfucker. Zion is a park that is practically under siege at the best of times and encouraging people to visit during a shutdown is the most entitled rear end in a top hat bullshit imaginable Luckily the NPS has kept staff at the Hawaii parks, notably Puʻuhonua o Hōnaunau National Historical Park, and has shut down Puʻukoholā Heiau National Historic Site entirely. I am worried about Kaloko-Honokōhau National Historical Park, as well as Wupatki, Chaco Canyon, Walnut Canyon, Mesa Verde, Aztec West, Casa Grande, anyon de Chelly and Navajo National Monument and hope they don't get pothunted. We've already been dealing with destruction and lootint for years but the NPS protected sites have fared better.
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Jan 6, 2019 19:50
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Your Taint posted:Really? Find them. Put them in front of a camera and have them tell the world they'd rather have a border wall than food or a place to live. Do it. He did so last week, when he paraded those skinhead ICE folks around to distract from the new House taking their oaths.
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Jan 6, 2019 19:52
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KiteAuraan posted:Luckily the NPS has kept staff at the Hawaii parks, notably Puʻuhonua o Hōnaunau National Historical Park, and has shut down Puʻukoholā Heiau National Historic Site entirely. I am worried about Kaloko-Honokōhau National Historical Park, as well as Wupatki, Chaco Canyon, Walnut Canyon, Mesa Verde, Aztec West, Casa Grande, anyon de Chelly and Navajo National Monument and hope they don't get pothunted. We've already been dealing with destruction and lootint for years but the NPS protected sites have fared better. They are totally getting pothunted. When are they not getting pothunted. Everything in Northern Arizona is prolly slightly better off because the weather has been poo poo here for a little bit which makes getting around annoying. But that also might work the other way and encourage it. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Jan 6, 2019 |
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Jan 6, 2019 19:53
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DarkHorse posted:3) McConnell caves - either outrage from his fellow (R) Senators or voters forces him to put a clean CR to a vote and shift the issue onto Trump's desk. This spares Republicans, but throws the blame onto Trump Trump just tell his supporters that they “won” and the same 25 to 40% that love to believe him will just keep on believing him.
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Jan 6, 2019 19:55
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Your Taint posted:Or flipping over onto his back. Ahaha it’s so funny that the guy that’s been loving your country for so many years looks like a turtle. So funny.
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Jan 6, 2019 19:55
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spunkshui posted:Trump just tell his supporters that they “won” and the same 25 to 40% that love to believe him will just keep on believing him. Yeah this is the only way I can see Trump backing down - he'll announce that he's bypassing the "useless" congress and instructing the military to build the wall, and allow Fox and their viewers to talk about how big and strong he is. No actual orders will be given to anyone in the military, and he'll just go around parroting that we're "building the wall" despite no actual construction happening.
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Jan 6, 2019 19:58
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I mean, this is literally one of those "We do not negotiate with Terrorists" moments except the terrorist is inside the white house.
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Jan 6, 2019 19:59
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What about Dems firing the first broadside and writing up articles of impeachment for McConnell? If the Senate would have a supermajority to override the veto and end the shutdown with an honest leader, get rid of the obstruction. It wouldn't be nearly as major as impeaching the President. And it'd definitely measure where the winds are blowing.
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Jan 6, 2019 20:02
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Oh good, looks like the debt ceiling comes back on March 2nd, and our old friends "extraordinary measures" will "probably" run out mid 2019. https://thehill.com/homenews/house/415817-dem-house-to-face-debt-limit-hike-in-summer-2019
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Jan 6, 2019 20:03
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Telsa Cola posted:They are totally getting pothunted. When are they not getting pothunted. Please let me dream fellow archaeologist. Dream of a world where sites aren't constantly being looted.
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Jan 6, 2019 20:04
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