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Mazz posted:They don’t have many options that aren’t the F-35, bribes or not. They can try to build more Typhoons, which are more expensive than the F-35 already and that price will climb real fast since [b]they would have to be Nuke certified to replace the Tornadoes in that role, which is a hard requirement. [B] The F-35 already will be. Wait, we have nuclear sharing agreements with the Jerry’s? What in the wide world of gently caress?
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Jan 6, 2019 10:40
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LtCol J. Krusinski posted:Wait, we have nuclear sharing agreements with the Jerry’s? What in the wide world of gently caress? The Federal Republic of Germany is one of our most vital
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Jan 6, 2019 10:54
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LtCol J. Krusinski posted:Wait, we have nuclear sharing agreements with the Jerry’s? What in the wide world of gently caress? Yes. Also with Belgium, Italy, the Netherlands, and Turkey. And formerly also with Canada (until 1984) and Greece (until 2001).
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Jan 6, 2019 10:55
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drgitlin posted:LOLWTF? I think you’ll find we call that airport “National”, friend. Everyone I know calls it Reagan.
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Jan 6, 2019 11:36
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Cat Mattress posted:Yes. Also with Belgium, Italy, the Netherlands, and Turkey. And formerly also with Canada (until 1984) and Greece (until 2001). What, exactly, is the tactical aim of Turkey nuke-fighters in the event of an exchange? I hope security is tighter on those warhead locks than it used to be on the Minuteman silos.. E: do the US give them nuclear weapons or just keep nuclear-armed platforms and weapons inside Turkish bases?
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Jan 6, 2019 11:42
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The bombs are American and guarded by American personnel; the vectors for them are the host country's aircraft and pilots. The idea is that if there's ever a need for them to be used, the USA will tell the other country, "okay, now's the time, we're gonna put this thing on your plane and you're gonna drop it at this target". There's not much point to it militarily; but it's useful politically.
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Jan 6, 2019 11:55
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Cat Mattress posted:The bombs are American and guarded by American personnel; the vectors for them are the host country's aircraft and pilots. The idea is that if there's ever a need for them to be used, the USA will tell the other country, "okay, now's the time, we're gonna put this thing on your plane and you're gonna drop it at this target". Oh okay. I was worried they'd just share them with Turkish personnel and assume they'd be used against American targets come the time. Not that Turkey is that hosed (yet), but it would still be quite an act of trust.
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Jan 6, 2019 12:27
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Tias posted:Oh okay. I was worried they'd just share them with Turkish personnel and assume they'd be used against American targets come the time. Not that Turkey is that hosed (yet), but it would still be quite an act of trust. Please. They’d use them on the Greeks.
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Jan 6, 2019 13:36
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Schadenboner posted:Please. They’d use them on the Greeks. Which is why Greece had the same deal, until 2001. Also remember when talking about the Gripen, it's gone through the superbug treatment - legacy A/C models are like legacy F-18s. Legacy Jas 39 = Legacy hornet Jas 39E (NG+) = F-18E superbug.
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Jan 6, 2019 14:21
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https://twitter.com/arawnsley/status/1081384192250925057
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Jan 6, 2019 15:36
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Tias posted:Denmark only bombs third-world farmers and head off Russian provos on christmas eve, we literally have no use for the JSF that our F-16s couldn't do if they weren't going to detetoriate at some point.
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Jan 6, 2019 15:44
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Schadenboner posted:Please. They’d use them on the Greeks.
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Jan 6, 2019 17:24
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The Russian aviation museum of Monino is going to close, and its aircraft will be converted to toys in Putin's "military disneyland" of Patriot Park. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/01/05/historic-aircraft-will-destroyed-move-putins-military-disneyland/
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Jan 6, 2019 18:48
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Cat Mattress posted:The bombs are American and guarded by American personnel; the vectors for them are the host country's aircraft and pilots. The idea is that if there's ever a need for them to be used, the USA will tell the other country, "okay, now's the time, we're gonna put this thing on your plane and you're gonna drop it at this target". It was also a significant cause for concern rather recently. Edit: Have families returned to Incirlik?
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Jan 6, 2019 19:00
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Neophyte posted:re: replacement planes The swiss tested the Gripen, the Rafale, and the Eurofighter in their 2008/9 fighter competition and the results (for performance in different tasks) seemed to be the same across the board. The Rafale was the best, followed by the Eurofighter, and the Gripen came in last. (Air superiority, Reconnisance, Defense, Surviveability, Strike missions, etc.) The Gripen on the other hand had the lowest price, operational cost per hour, etc. I can't find the full report, but here is a partial one with a few of the comparison charts I mentioned. https://www.scribd.com/doc/81390363/Swiss-Air-Force-Confidential-Report-on-the-Evaluation-of-the-Eurofighter-the-Gripen-NG-and-the-Rafale
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Jan 6, 2019 20:12
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How much do paper stats come into play with smaller countries and their missions? I have the hunch that for a country the difference between ”the best modern fighter” and ”a modern fighter” is neglible.
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Jan 6, 2019 20:48
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 CIA .pdf Alert but this guy collated a bunch of CIA copies of Russian strategic docs. Of particular interest:- The Organization of Radioelectronic Warfare in an Offensive Operation of an Army and a Front (1969) - The Principles and the Organization and Conduct of Operational Reconnaissance of a Front Offensive Operation (1974) - Lesson No. 11: Critique of the Plan of Operational Cover and Deployment of the Front's Troops and Their Occupation of the Departure Position for the Offensive (1977) - Lesson No. 12: Study of the Radioelectronic Warfare Plan in the Front Offensive Operation (1977) - Spetsnaz Forces and Means in a Front Offensive Operation (1985) Vahakyla posted:How much do paper stats come into play with smaller countries and their missions? I have the hunch that for a country the difference between ”the best modern fighter” and ”a modern fighter” is neglible.
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Jan 6, 2019 21:02
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Vahakyla posted:How much do paper stats come into play with smaller countries and their missions? I have the hunch that for a country the difference between ”the best modern fighter” and ”a modern fighter” is neglible. It's pretty much all about who they want to cozy up to. Buying a fighter is buying a political relationship. You need to cooperate with the other country's defense industry, there is frequently a lot of knowledge-sharing on everything from tactical use of the platform to maintenance practices, and if it's a current gen system you're getting a very intimate look into how their hardware functions. Depending on the thing you're buying you might also need spares etc that only the OEM can provide, which in turn makes you pretty dependent on them (the exceptions prove the rule - look at the lengths the Iranians have needed to go to to keep their F14s mostly flying). The major players for really high end poo poo (fighters, tanks, etc) are pretty much the US, Russia, and the various European countries, plus maybe a handful of US-friendly Asian countries if you're looking at ships. Maybe China if you don't need bleeding edge and want to make a point of getting friendly with them. It's very much a map that's reminiscent of the Cold War. If China and Russia aren't politically acceptable it basically boils down to whether you want to really get in bed with the US, or just kind of sleep in the next room over by buying from their assorted NATO allies.
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Jan 6, 2019 21:03
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For a small country with a strictly limited budget, there's an interesting trade-off there. A cheaper plane, especially one cheaper to fly, means you can afford more training. In terms of actual combat power, pilots with thousands of hours in Saabs might be able to defeat pilots with dozens of hours in fancier planes. But if your good is to deter an opponent, the hardware specs would matter more.
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Jan 6, 2019 21:40
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Unfortunately, pilots with thousands of hours in a Saab will probably lose to pilots with hundreds of hours in an F-22 or F-35. Also, I'm not willing to bet that a country that shorts their procurement budget will turn around and fully fund their training budget.
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Jan 6, 2019 21:51
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Cat Mattress posted:Now guess how many aircraft manufacturers get to belong to both the Five Eyes and Two Eyes? And how many of them are in Europe? But it just have to meet those standards? How hard is it to meet, I mean the NORAD standard uses vacuum tubes amirite  [...] [...] 
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Jan 6, 2019 23:50
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Cat Mattress posted:The Russian aviation museum of Monino is going to close, and its aircraft will be converted to toys in Putin's "military disneyland" of Patriot Park. I had daydreams of going there someday. Hopefully the big behemoths like the Bison, Tu-144, and T-4 will survive. Dead Reckoning posted:Unfortunately, pilots with thousands of hours in a Saab will probably lose to pilots with hundreds of hours in an F-22 or F-35.
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Jan 7, 2019 04:45
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Donald Trump is President we’re in the wacky mirror universe so who knows
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Jan 7, 2019 04:53
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david_a posted:In what universe is an F-22 going to square off with a Gripen or even be compared to it in any way, shape, or form A new Ace Combat game is coming out soon.
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Jan 7, 2019 05:04
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Warbadger posted:When I was working with the Foreign Service flying out of there pretty frequently we called it Reagan National. Granted we lived in all of the other world capitols. Huh - I've heard it called Reagan and National but not both... Then again, I've never done a domestic gig yet.
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Jan 7, 2019 07:13
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Dead Reckoning posted:Unfortunately, pilots with thousands of hours in a Saab will probably lose to pilots with hundreds of hours in an F-22 or F-35. Isn't it more likely to be a dozen to a hundred hours of training in a Saab vs up to a dozen hours, a few guys with tens of hours in a F-22? Also not just the pilots, but AWACS, ground control and planning etc, army and navy exposure hours etc. Having a defense force that sees the equipment in training every few months (like in Australia) is much better than the likes of New Zealand where the equipment gets pretend used every few months on exercise and only every second exercise that they would get to put helicopters in the air, be issued live ammunition for the artillery (each six shot mission is provided two rounds, one for the first and one for the last, go through the motions of firing for the other four).
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Jan 7, 2019 07:48
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david_a posted:In what universe is an F-22 going to square off with a Gripen or even be compared to it in any way, shape, or form F-16s, Gripens, etc. are rapidly losing their status as "a modern fighter" and any country that adopts them today out of parsimony or "anything but the F-35, waaaah" is only fooling themselves if they think otherwise. Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 07:59 on Jan 7, 2019 |
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Jan 7, 2019 07:56
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Cat Mattress posted:The Russian aviation museum of Monino is going to close, and its aircraft will be converted to toys in Putin's "military disneyland" of Patriot Park. And here I was thinking my opinion of Putin couldn't get any lower.
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Jan 7, 2019 08:00
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vuk83 posted:Disagree, Denmark has a large cooperation posture with the baltic countries. As I said, our F-16 are fine for heading off the Russian provocations in our airspace that happens on a bi-yearly basis. In the event of a shooting war with Russia, we're hosed regardless and should replace our defense budget with an answering machine saying "We surrender" in Russian. Why should we cripple our national budget on J-35s, while children still starve and people still go homeless, just so we have a war penis to shake at Russia on the Americans' behalf?
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Jan 7, 2019 11:16
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Electric Wrigglies posted:Isn't it more likely to be a dozen to a hundred hours of training in a Saab vs up to a dozen hours, a few guys with tens of hours in a F-22? Unless you're fighting against F-22 pilots who haven't finished flight school, no. An F-22 pilot typically is getting a bit under 100 hours/year on average. And you don't pair up two green-as-hell pilots to form a two-ship.
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Jan 7, 2019 14:48
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Tias posted:As I said, our F-16 are fine for heading off the Russian provocations in our airspace that happens on a bi-yearly basis. In the event of a shooting war with Russia, we're hosed regardless and should replace our defense budget with an answering machine saying "We surrender" in Russian. You’re going down a D+D hole with this that won’t have a “good” answer, but basically the F-16 is going to get more expensive to keep flying in the next 25 years and the F-35 will get less because of economies of scale. A new build F-35 is already within spitting distance of a new build, modernized F-16 and it’s not out of LRIP yet. (~75m vs ~88m). The CPFH is still about double but is also falling because the plane has been operational for 5 years to the F-16s 50. The simple fact is though the F-16s don’t have much of a service life left, especially if you want to play with NATO and do things like ISAF deployments or Baltic stuff forever. The F-16s will likely be operational in some form to 2030 or 2035 even jumping on the F-35 bandwagon anyway because this poo poo takes a long time either away. Mazz fucked around with this message at 15:32 on Jan 7, 2019 |
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Jan 7, 2019 14:59
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david_a posted:Didn’t the US resort to doing firebombing with the B-29s partially because it was nearly impossible to reliably hit anything at the altitudes they were flying? A couple of pages ago but this is completely backwards. The air over Japan in 1944 was almost devoid of defensive fighters. So the B-29s started coming in low to be more effective with firebombing. Flying low exposed them to more flak so in response the B-29B was stripped of almost all it's guns so it could fly faster and spend less time exposed to flak.
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Jan 7, 2019 15:19
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Tias posted:Why should we cripple our national budget on J-35s, while children still starve and people still go homeless, just so we have a war penis to shake at Russia on the Americans' behalf? Denmark is a rich country in NATO. If people are going homeless/starving in a country with a gdp of 300 billion (50k/capita) that's not because its spending 1% on defense. Meanwhile having a big military dick to wave at Russia is kind of the point of NATO collective defence. Especially for small countries such as yours and mine that stand no chance on their own. Now if you disagree with that you should probably advocate leaving NATO instead. One thing people seem to forget is that those generous European welfare states of days past were built during the cold war when we all spent much more on defense. That we do neither today is a political choice for lower taxes etc, not some inescapable constraint.
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Jan 7, 2019 15:24
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Mazz posted:You’re going down a D+D hole with this that won’t have a “good” answer, but basically the F-16 is going to get more expensive to keep flying in the next 25 years and the F-35 will get less because of economies of scale. A new build F-35 is already within spitting distance of a new build, modernized F-16 and it’s not out of LRIP yet. (~75m vs ~88m). You forget about the used F-16s. LOTS of them available. Yeah, I understand the fact of maintenance and such, but refurbishing and reselling older F-16's does happen. And its a LOT less expensive than 75m.
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Jan 7, 2019 15:26
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EvilMerlin posted:You forget about the used F-16s. LOTS of them available. True, but I feel like just buying everyone else’s 16AMs came up when discussed with Belgium/Norway/whatever and it’s never been a realistic option for any of them. I mean cost wise it’s probably the cheapest but you also just prolong the inevitable and all the stuff you walk away from in terms of NATO interoperability and what not. When you tack on political offsets/bribes/corruption it gets even worse. I don’t disagree it should absolutely be considered during any proper AoA though. Mazz fucked around with this message at 15:44 on Jan 7, 2019 |
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Jan 7, 2019 15:41
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Looking at the alliance as a whole, I would think you would want those going to the poorer Eastern European members. Have the small rich high labour cost western europeans field the higher tech specialist stuff like the F35 for penetrating iads. While the poorer countries get the nato compatible F16s rather than ex combloc stuff. Of course that requires coordination and doesnt work if alliance members go "welp cant deter the russians solo, might as well not bother."
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Jan 7, 2019 15:56
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clearly the "optimal" NATO / EU force composition is to have the Nordics and the Low Countries handle specialized local stuff like amphibious and light mountain warfare plus expensive stuff like airforce, and to have the Baltics and Eastern Europe do the heavy lifting of mechanized infantry and armor - and to an extent, that has always happened, but nobody is going to fully sign off on that and leave the Netherlands with a bunch of F35s and two-three Marine regiments.
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Jan 7, 2019 16:10
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Captain von Trapp posted:Not to derail, but what do y'all think of the Chantilly/Reston/Herndon and associated western commuter suburbs area? A company there is trying to poach me for work this thread would think is fun. I'm currently in Huntsville, AL. I hated Reston / Herndon, lifeless suburbia and still takes for loving ever to go to DC or north to MD no matter the time of day. Its also stupidly expensive for reasonable housing without having to have a killer commute, or live in a poo poo hole predatory apartment complex. I got tired of it after like 3 years and moved back to Baltimore.
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Jan 7, 2019 16:31
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Mazz posted:True, but I feel like just buying everyone else’s 16AMs came up when discussed with Belgium/Norway/whatever and it’s never been a realistic option for any of them. I mean cost wise it’s probably the cheapest but you also just prolong the inevitable and all the stuff you walk away from in terms of NATO interoperability and what not. When you tack on political offsets/bribes/corruption it gets even worse. I don’t disagree it should absolutely be considered during any proper AoA though. Without a doubt. Remember its possible to buy refurbbed F-16's (Via MLU for A/Bs or CCIP for C/Ds) are bought up to the latest avionics packages, which mostly means the APG-83 (which is a drat good system), a cockpit with some of the F-35A's features, the updted ADTE, CDEEU (finally), the LN-260 (for GPS and navigation), the IFF system based on that of the F-35 (AN/APX-126), the JHMCS II (developed from the F-35). So while it is an F-16, its not the F-16s of old.
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Jan 7, 2019 16:41
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:clearly the "optimal" NATO / EU force composition is to have the Nordics and the Low Countries handle specialized local stuff like amphibious and light mountain warfare plus expensive stuff like airforce, and to have the Baltics and Eastern Europe do the heavy lifting of mechanized infantry and armor - and to an extent, that has always happened, but nobody is going to fully sign off on that and leave the Netherlands with a bunch of F35s and two-three Marine regiments. It also makes sense geographically. You want the big expensive F-35 to be based somewhere where it won't get obliterated in five seconds flat by missiles, and you want the tanks on the border. Captain von Trapp posted:Thanks all, but sadly I'm in Dulles getting ready to leave. Will definitely hit up the NRA museum next time as well. I like all of those, Chantilly the most. Reston and Herndon are better if you're commuting to Tysons Corner. Couldn't disagree more with Plinkey. The schools are excellent, and once you've seen all the museums there's no actual reason to go to Maryland or DC anyway; there's better stuff on this side of the Potomac.
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