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MizPiz posted:The left seriously needs to require less reading. At least a third of it is just people explaining esoterically complicated words and concepts they made up to make themselves sound more academic. Ah, I see you’ve read Geohell
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Jan 8, 2019 07:47
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Question Friend posted:Reparations is a good example of how much of a dead end that discourse usually is gently caress you cracker
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Jan 8, 2019 07:56
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any actually existing socialism would involve a massive transfer of wealth from whites to people of color, and if that's not reparations then what is?
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Jan 8, 2019 07:58
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nah man, we're gonna do champagne socialism, the other 5-6 billion people will get to consume as much resources as lovely westerners and we're gonna make it all work within climate death! just lol if you've not even faced to the reality of how much deconstruction we have to do to survive as a species, might as well just go full fygm chud
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Jan 8, 2019 08:01
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:any actually existing socialism would involve a massive transfer of wealth from whites to people of color, and if that's not reparations then what is? reparations mean redistribution of wealth through non-universal programs (actual socialism is scary) combined with a great spiritual renewal that will exorcise the demons of Racism from our hearts
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Jan 8, 2019 08:11
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smarxist posted:nah man, we're gonna do champagne socialism, the other 5-6 billion people will get to consume as much resources as lovely westerners and we're gonna make it all work within climate death! only privileged white kids write poo poo like this lol
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Jan 8, 2019 08:13
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I'm pretty much in the bottom rung of society and have been my whole life but go off DSA tech lord dude
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Jan 8, 2019 08:15
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Slanderer posted:reparations mean redistribution of wealth through non-universal programs (actual socialism is scary) combined with a great spiritual renewal that will exorcise the demons of Racism from our hearts not all socialist programs are gonna be universal my dude.
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Jan 8, 2019 08:21
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This shitbird has a canny knack for interpreting reality in whatever way will least threaten his comfortable treat boy lifestyle and 401k, gently caress off back to cum town liberal
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Jan 8, 2019 08:23
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:not all socialist programs are gonna be universal my dude. I think you mean social fascist
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Jan 8, 2019 08:24
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smarxist posted:This shitbird has a canny knack for interpreting reality in whatever way will least threaten his comfortable treat boy lifestyle and 401k, gently caress off back to cum town liberal is this what happens to your brain when you google Murray Bookchin?
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Jan 8, 2019 08:26
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Slanderer posted:I think you mean social fascist I think you're a bad poster
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Jan 8, 2019 08:27
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Real talk, how much is in your portfolio
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Jan 8, 2019 08:27
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have you considered that you could dramatically decrease your ecological footprint by not polluting the forums with your dumbass posts?
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Jan 8, 2019 08:34
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we get it, you’re mad about being a white male imperialist but you can’t post your way out of this hole, bucko!
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Jan 8, 2019 08:34
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Answer the question coward, this is struggle session time
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Jan 8, 2019 08:35
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o no
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Jan 8, 2019 08:37
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Lol do you not even see how the poo poo you're whining about right now is just chud rhetoric from the other side of the coin
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Jan 8, 2019 08:37
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Slanderer posted:reparations mean redistribution of wealth through non-universal programs (actual socialism is scary) combined with a great spiritual renewal that will exorcise the demons of Racism from our hearts redistribution of wealth is necessarily going to be non-universal because you're obviously not going to include the people that you're taking poo poo from, in the list of people that you're redistributing poo poo towards.
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Jan 8, 2019 08:39
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gradenko_2000 posted:redistribution of wealth is necessarily going to be non-universal because you're obviously not going to include the people that you're taking poo poo from, in the list of people that you're redistributing poo poo towards. yeah but doing it along solely racial linea is kinda dumb imo. or if it's not going to be done solely along racial lines, using the rhetoric of reparations seems like a bad strategy
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Jan 8, 2019 08:45
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Finicums Wake posted:yeah but doing it along solely racial linea is kinda dumb imo. or if it's not going to be done solely along racial lines, using the rhetoric of reparations seems like a bad strategy the taking was done along racial lines.
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Jan 8, 2019 08:47
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gradenko_2000 posted:the taking was done along racial lines. if you think the only unethical transfer of wealth in american history was along racial lines you're just a woke, ta nehisi coates style lib
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Jan 8, 2019 08:50
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if you accept that any just redistribution of wealth will take into account both race and class then we're back at square one where reparations discourse is a dead end
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Jan 8, 2019 08:53
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Finicums Wake posted:yeah but doing it along solely racial linea is kinda dumb imo. or if it's not going to be done solely along racial lines, using the rhetoric of reparations seems like a bad strategy you can literally draw the racial lines on a map in most places. Finicums Wake posted:if you accept that any just redistribution of wealth will take into account both race and class then we're back at square one where reparations discourse is a dead end it's a "dead end" because it's supposed that whites wouldn't tolerate any kind of development program that doesn't benefit themselves specifically. like, a revitalization program in a black neighborhood isn't going to benefit whites, so are we supposed to assume it shouldn't happen because it's reparative?
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Jan 8, 2019 08:53
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gradenko_2000 posted:redistribution of wealth is necessarily going to be non-universal because you're obviously not going to include the people that you're taking poo poo from, in the list of people that you're redistributing poo poo towards. not what I said. universal programs, not universal distribution.
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Jan 8, 2019 08:56
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:it's a "dead end" because it's supposed that whites wouldn't tolerate any kind of development program that doesn't benefit themselves specifically. like, a revitalization program in a black neighborhood isn't going to benefit whites, so are we supposed to assume it shouldn't happen because it's reparative? it’s too late for a post this disingenuous, cmon
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Jan 8, 2019 08:59
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Finicums Wake posted:if you think the only unethical transfer of wealth in american history was along racial lines I didn't say that. Some of it wasn't, but some of it very clearly was.
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Jan 8, 2019 09:01
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Slanderer posted:not what I said. universal programs, not universal distribution. to distribute a necessarily reparative amount of resources and labor to the most dispossessed elements of society, that means some programs can't be universal because their scope needs to be narrow enough to aid the groups in need. even under the umbrella of an ostensibly universal program at the national level, you're going to need some particular programs to ensure justice for particular people. Even in a socialist trade union you'd need chapters that represent particular trades and fields, because workers who have specialized don't all share the same interests that everybody else does, and need special organs to guarantee their representation. Socialist programs are no different.
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Jan 8, 2019 09:02
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:it's a "dead end" because it's supposed that whites wouldn't tolerate any kind of development program that doesn't benefit themselves specifically. like, a revitalization program in a black neighborhood isn't going to benefit whites, so are we supposed to assume it shouldn't happen because it's reparative? i think you could get these kinds of programs implemented if bundled or subsumed under a broadwr program that will benefit the working class as a whole. but if you think whites will tolerate, let alone pass reparataions, simpliciter, then...read settlers lol
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Jan 8, 2019 09:03
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sorry my only conception of reparations is ashy Larry saying "I'm rich bitch!" on Chapelle show and the idea of it makes my blood boil so obviously the whole thing is a dead end
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Jan 8, 2019 09:04
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gradenko_2000 posted:I didn't say that. Some of it wasn't, but some of it very clearly was. agreed. but the politics of reparations homes in on the part that very clearly was, and since there's no group/coalition with the desire and, crucially, ability to fix that aspect of the broder problem, and only that aspect, any form of politics which homes in on that aspect to the exclusion of the broader problem is a dead end
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Jan 8, 2019 09:07
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reckoning with race and gender inequality is vitally necessary to building working class solidarity to eventually overthrow the fucks up top and it pretty much would have to be bold and meaningful
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Jan 8, 2019 09:07
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smarxist posted:sorry my only conception of reparations is ashy Larry saying "I'm rich bitch!" on Chapelle show and the idea of it makes my blood boil so obviously the whole thing is a dead end ah, makes sense. check out adolf reed jr. hope that helps
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Jan 8, 2019 09:09
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Finicums Wake posted:i think you could get these kinds of programs implemented if bundled or subsumed under a broadwr program that will benefit the working class as a whole. but if you think whites will tolerate, let alone pass reparataions, simpliciter, then...read settlers lol Whiteness is a racialized representation of a particular class interest which only meaningfully exists in settler states. It's not some kind of universal truism, it was historically constructed through the process of imperialism. This always ends up confusing these discussions, because when I say it's riduculous to assume whites will never agree to reparations, I'm talking about white-skinned people who have been desettlerized and not the "White" settler class. For socialism to be possible America has to be decolonized, and that means the colonizers themselves. Whiteness can only be a fluid concept in the first place because it represents a particularly constructed settler culture, and not any kind of "real" tradition or community. Settlers still exploit each other just as they exploit natives, coolies, slaves, whatever have you - but it's still undeniable who is the settler class and who is the servile class. Reparations are only a "dead end" if you're not willing to start from the point of deconstructing whiteness and the settler mentality.
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Jan 8, 2019 09:14
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smarxist posted:reckoning with race and gender inequality is vitally necessary to building working class solidarity to eventually overthrow the fucks up top and it pretty much would have to be bold and meaningful Pener Kropoopkin posted:Whiteness is a racialized representation of a particular class interest which only meaningfully exists in settler states. It's not some kind of universal truism, it was historically constructed through the process of imperialism. This always ends up confusing these discussions, because when I say it's riduculous to assume whites will never agree to reparations, I'm talking about white-skinned people who have been desettlerized and not the "White" settler class. For socialism to be possible America has to be decolonized, and that means the colonizers themselves. I don't really have anything to add to these two great posts.
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Jan 8, 2019 09:23
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If the dogwhistlers understand that specific programmes that aren't specifically targeted at race can still be racist, why can't y'all grasp that making better programmes that aren't specifically targeted at race can overcome racial inequalities
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Jan 8, 2019 10:27
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decolonizing, to me, is pulling a pol pot on the middle manager sector of society, the people doing busy work and not any kind of useful bureaucratic or administrative function. by which I mean everyone in the suburbs is torn from their safe petit boug enclave and forced to work for a living
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Jan 8, 2019 10:33
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Larry Parrish posted:decolonizing, to me, is pulling a pol pot on the middle manager sector of society, the people doing busy work and not any kind of useful bureaucratic or administrative function. by which I mean everyone in the suburbs is torn from their safe petit boug enclave and forced to work for a living if you wear a suit to work then you're gonna till the soil.  Enjoy posted:If the dogwhistlers understand that specific programmes that aren't specifically targeted at race can still be racist, why can't y'all grasp that making better programmes that aren't specifically targeted at race can overcome racial inequalities You can't level society without directly lifting up the disadvantaged groups to the same state as the previously privileged classes. Otherwise you end up with a sort of Zeno's paradox where you constantly approach real equality but never actually realize it.
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Jan 8, 2019 10:46
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I will never read Settlers because everyone I have ever met who has read it and swears by it has either been an irl person who has done no movement or organizing work outside of reading books and poo poo talking people who are actually involved in movement work, and people online who just post "read settlers." If you want to read an analysis of race and class in american society and history, why not read a book tackling those issues by an actual social scientist like Stamped From the Beginning by Ibram X. Kendi?
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Jan 8, 2019 12:33
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nobody ITT is even stanning Settlers very much, just a couple solid concepts from it that enflame fake rear end lefty's so much they go bananas for several pages. for that reason alone it's at least useful as a litmus test for the type of person you're dealing with when mentioning it lol
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Jan 8, 2019 12:48
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