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Jan 8, 2019 18:38
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qkkl posted:The evidence that really convinced me that the Ottomans intended to kill the Armenians was the part where they threw children into the sea. I don't see how you can throw a child into open water without fully understanding that they are going to drown. I’ve heard of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but this is ridiculous!
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Jan 8, 2019 18:40
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enraged_camel posted:Like all elements of a crime, intent is something that needs to be proven. So let me know when you can show us evidence that the Ottomans intended for the Armenians to perish. (If that was the goal why wasn’t it done via conventional means?)
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Jan 8, 2019 18:42
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Frond posted:Urge to join PKK rising...rising. In that case, you might also want to look into defecting to the DPRK. You will find the same leader worship, the cult of personality, dogmatic groupthink and extremist edginess there, with the added benefit of having your own internationally recognized sovereign territory under the benevolent role of the great leader whom without the sun cannot rise, Kim Jong-un. I specifically used the sun thing, because it was an actual quote from an article in a PKK media website. Some cadre was claiming that he could not have even breathed without the great leader Apo.
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Jan 8, 2019 18:43
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Flayer posted:Killing a million people by conventional means is a lot harder than abandoning them in a desert. By "conventional means" he meant gas chambers, which were in fact the most efficient method for mass killing until nukes were invented.
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Jan 8, 2019 18:43
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The Ottoman incursions into Northern Syria are basically part of a plot to destroy socialism in the middle east through the use of their Syrian puppets alongside their armed forces. I got a good laugh that "strategic hamlets" are anything other than collective punishment against civilian populations.
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Jan 8, 2019 18:44
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qkkl posted:By "conventional means" he meant gas chambers, which were in fact the most efficient method for mass killing until nukes were invented. You must have missed the part were Hitler felt this wasn't fast enough and switched to ditches.
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Jan 8, 2019 18:46
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almighty posted:This might come off as a surprise to you, but the Ottoman Empire crumbled and ceased to exist at the beginning of the 20th century. Turkey committed the genocide of the Armenian people.
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Jan 8, 2019 18:46
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I just think it's strange that everyone is in agreement that Turkey must recognize its genocide, yet there is no outrage towards the U.S., Great Britain, or other countries committing genocide at the same time.
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Jan 8, 2019 18:55
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Feldegast42 posted:Isn't one of the reasons why Turkey gets all hot and bothered when someone calls them out over the Armenian Genocide is because Ataturk and co (I.E. the founding fathers of the country) were involved in it No. The ruling government at the time when Armenian genocide took place was a triumvirate of three pashas. They were Mehmed Talaat Pasha, Ismail Enver Pasha, and Ahmed Djamal Pasha. They were also largely responsible for getting the Ottoman Empire into the World War I in 1914. These men made up the leadership of the Committee of Union and Progress, also generally referred to as Young Turks. Ataturk was not a part of the said government and he disliked all three individuals, especially Enver who has been a rival of his in the military for a long, long time. Enver and Ataturk were both CUP members as Military Academy students when it was a mere progressive organization during the 1900s, but Enver moved on to take over the organization and transform it into a Pan-Turkic movement which ended up with Ataturk being sidelined as a junior officer (and Ataturk himself distancing himself from the CUP) and Enver landing himself the job of minister of defense before the WWI. Ataturk was also batting for the prestigious post before the war, but Enver beat him to it. Along with other senior members of the CUP, none of the three pashas made it to see the entirety of the first decade of the Republic. They were either court-martialed by the Ottoman Sultan Mehmed VI after the surrender of the Ottoman Empire, exiled after the Republic was established, or were tried and executed by Ataturk's government for a conspiracy to assassinate the man also known as the Izmir conspiracy in 1926.
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Jan 8, 2019 18:56
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HorrificExistence posted:I just think it's strange that everyone is in agreement that Turkey must recognize its genocide, yet there is no outrage towards the U.S., Great Britain, or other countries committing genocide at the same time. As an American, I think the US should acknowledge that we committed genocide against our country's indigenous people, should provide reparations (and has, though the degree to which they're sufficient is obviously a fair question), and don't think our government should try to bully other countries into pretending it didn't happen (as Turkey's government does). See how easy that is? If Turkey's leaders had been honest about the history decades ago, it wouldn't continue to be such a sore point around the world. Denying the crime up until now is what gives the issue continued relevance.
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Jan 8, 2019 19:00
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Panzeh posted:The Ottoman incursions into Northern Syria are basically part of a plot to destroy socialism in the middle east through the use of their Syrian puppets alongside their armed forces. Yeah, this is the kind of thinking and talking that essentially defines the PKK as an extremist cult seeing conspiracies everywhere rather than a rational, socialist, benevolent and progressive non-state actor. FYI, the PKK also thinks there is a global, international conspiracy against their great leader Apo who has been seeking to undermine his authority and his ideas. With that logic one can also hilariously argue it was just the Vietnamese collectively punihing themselves. In reality, Strategic Hamlets were all about shielding the civilians in sparsely located, remote villages against the guerilla influence and denying them access for logistics, you can actually do your research and read about it. The difference between the case of Vietnam and the case of Southeast Turkey is that in Turkey, it actually worked according to the testimonies of several PKK senior cadres who were active during the 90s.
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Jan 8, 2019 19:08
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Sinteres posted:As an American, I think the US should acknowledge that we committed genocide against our country's indigenous people, should provide reparations (and has, though the degree to which they're sufficient is obviously a fair question), and don't think our government should try to bully other countries into pretending it didn't happen (as Turkey's government does). See how easy that is? If Turkey's leaders had been honest about the history decades ago, it wouldn't continue to be such a sore point around the world. Denying the crime up until now is what gives the issue continued relevance. This is all well and good but half the world recognizes the Armenian genocide. No one recognizes the Bengal Famine or The American Indian Genocide.
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Jan 8, 2019 19:10
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steinrokkan posted:Turkey committed the genocide of the Armenian people. Republic of Turkey wasn't a thing until 1923. Armenian atrocities took place between 1915 and 1917 during the WWI, under the rule of the Ottoman Empire. Turkey is not the Ottoman Empire.
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Jan 8, 2019 19:10
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almighty posted:Republic of Turkey wasn't a thing until 1923. Armenian atrocities took place between 1915 and 1917 during the WWI. So all the people who were alive in 1917 died between then and 1923 and were replaced with fully grown clones?
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Jan 8, 2019 19:11
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enraged_camel posted:
Don't you live in the US and hold permanent residency here? By your own standards you shouldn't even be talking about Turkey, right?
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Jan 8, 2019 19:12
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Also Germany didn't commit the Holocaust, that was the Third Reich, a totally different thing. (That was generally the DDR argument as well)
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Jan 8, 2019 19:13
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almighty posted:Republic of Turkey wasn't a thing until 1923. Armenian atrocities took place between 1915 and 1917 during the WWI, under the rule of the Ottoman Empire. Turkey is not the Ottoman Empire. The poster who said Turkey (and you) just wants to claim to glorious parts of the Ottoman historical legacy without any of the baggage was absolutely right. This is a bullshit argument--Turkey is very clearly the successor state of the Ottoman Empire, and is ruled by a leader who admires the Ottoman era a lot more than the founders of the Turkish republic. Nobody's saying Erdogan killed the Armenians personally, but his anger whenever anyone wants to talk about the genocide does suggest he takes criticism of the Ottoman Empire as criticism of his country.
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Jan 8, 2019 19:16
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HorrificExistence posted:I just think it's strange that everyone is in agreement that Turkey must recognize its genocide, yet there is no outrage towards the U.S., Great Britain, or other countries committing genocide at the same time. A conundrum certainly, but perhaps the fact that this thread is about the Middle East could be a clue? Wikipedia doesn't list the US or Great Britain as being usually considered part of the Middle East. This might be the reason. However; I will say it now and then: the United Kingdom and the United States of America have conducted numerous acts of genocide, including but not limited to the massacre and deportation of the indigenous populations of North America; the organized starvation of British colonies including Ireland and India; the forced deportation of the Chagos Islanders. They should recognize their crimes and provide the descendants of the victims with reparations; as well as evacuate Diego Garcia to restitute it to its legitimate inhabitants. In addition, Turkey should recognize that genocides organized by its predecessor country did occur against the Armenians, the Anatolian Greeks, and the Assyrians.
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Jan 8, 2019 19:17
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steinrokkan posted:So all the people who were alive in 1917 died between then and 1923 and were replaced with fully grown clones? You have no business ridiculing the loss of lives and the immense suffering that took place during that period. Don't even dare. You know very well what I'm trying to point out here: Republic of Turkey is not the Ottoman Empire, and it wasn't established in 1923 by the elements of the Ottoman Empire which planned and executed the mass deportations and the atrocities that Armenians suffered between 1915 and 1917.
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Jan 8, 2019 19:20
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Apparently Canada interceded on her behalf with Thai officials https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappen...watch-1.4968585 The world will be a better place after the House of Saud is replaced with a secular democracy.
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Jan 8, 2019 19:26
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Btw the Turkish National movement was directly responsible for ethnic cleansing in 1920 as well. And almost certainly elements of the Ottoman Empire that were involved eventually joined the nationalists a couple years later even if certain pashas weren’t. It is true that Mustafa Kemal was working elsewhere during 15-17. As someone who also studied Ottoman History, the latest few pages haven’t been impressive. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Jan 8, 2019 |
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Jan 8, 2019 19:26
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Cat Mattress posted:
As long as the Greeks also recognize what they did in the Turkish war of independence.
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Jan 8, 2019 19:28
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HorrificExistence posted:As long as the Greeks also recognize what they did in the Turkish war of independence. The whataboutism is getting pretty heavy here. Now the list of countries that have to acknowledge their wrongdoing before Turkey can is Germany, Japan, the US, UK and Greece. Any others?
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Jan 8, 2019 19:29
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Sinteres posted:The poster who said Turkey (and you) just wants to claim to glorious parts of the Ottoman historical legacy without any of the baggage was absolutely right. This is a bullshit argument--Turkey is very clearly the successor state of the Ottoman Empire, and is ruled by a leader who admires the Ottoman era a lot more than the founders of the Turkish republic. Nobody's saying Erdogan killed the Armenians personally, but his anger whenever anyone wants to talk about the genocide does suggest he takes criticism of the Ottoman Empire as criticism of his country. Armenians were deported and were subjected to numerous atrocities under the watch of a very specific Ottoman government, with certain individuals in power. I'm saying that these individuals have gently caress all to do with the modern Turkey and it's involvement in Syria vis-a-vis the PKK, which was the subject of discussion under this thread. Ottoman Legacy hasn't got much to do with Turkish security concerns due to a PKK governing entity popping up right next door either. Additionally, you might also have noticed that I don't really have a history of posting which glorifies the Ottoman Empire here in any way, shape or form. Do you remember Erdogan calling a bunch of contemporary German politicians Nazis over some silly spat a while ago? Bringing the Armenian Genocide into the subject of Syria and the PKK presence there makes as much sense as Erdogan's that statement. It's sensationalist and nonsensical. By the way, even though I'm not an Erdogan voter, I gotta hand it to him: He is the first Turkish PM and president to have specifically cited the Armenian massacres under the Ottoman Empire on April 24th with a live on TV public statement.
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Jan 8, 2019 19:31
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Sinteres posted:The whataboutism is getting pretty heavy here. Now the list of countries that have to acknowledge their wrongdoing before Turkey can is Germany, Japan, the US, UK and Greece. Any others? ISIS needs to apologize for what it did to Yazids. ARSA needs to apologize for what it did to Hindus. Those might not count though, since those are
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Jan 8, 2019 19:34
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Admittedly, reprisals against the Kurds started by the Republic of Turkey in the 1920s is more applicable.
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Jan 8, 2019 19:35
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Ardennes posted:Admittedly, reprisals against the Kurds started by the Republic of Turkey in the 1920s is more applicable. That was distinctively the comparison that got this whole thing started.
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Jan 8, 2019 19:36
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Ardennes posted:Btw the Turkish National movement was directly responsible for ethnic cleansing in 1920 as well. CUP that steered the last Ottoman Government was, but if by Turkish National Movement you mean the group figureheads of the movement that declared the Republic, well, not so much. While it is true (and inevitable) that some members of the CUP did join the ranks of the nationalists which ended up established the Republic, it is difficult to recall any prominent figureheads among the nationalists who were also directly responsible for the Armenian deportations and atrocities. Ardennes posted:And almost certainly elements of the Ottoman Empire that were involved eventually joined the nationalists a couple years later even if certain pashas weren’t. It is true that Mustafa Kemal was working elsewhere during 15-17. Precisely what I'm saying, a large portion of prior CUP members who jointed the Turkish Nationalist ranks ended up getting tried and executed in 1926 for a conspiracy that involved assassination of Ataturk in Izmir. Even so, it is really difficult to mention anyone in that bunch who also had involvement in Armenian deportations or killings.
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Jan 8, 2019 19:38
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Can't wait for almighty or enraged camel to make the logical leap from comparing Turkish and American genocides to calling Sioux or Cherokee tribes terrorists like the pkk
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Jan 8, 2019 19:41
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almighty posted:CUP that steered the last Ottoman Government was, but if by Turkish National Movement you mean the group figureheads of the movement that declared the Republic, well, not so much. While it is true (and inevitable) that some members of the CUP did join the ranks of the nationalists which ended up established the Republic, it is difficult to recall any prominent figureheads among the nationalists who were also directly responsible for the Armenian deportations and atrocities. The issue really isn’t the upper leadership of the CUP itself but almost certainly elements of the army involved in the genocide were also part of the national movement and its forces. The issue isn’t really just individuals but that large parts of the military were tainted. Also lustration really wasn’t a thing at that point.
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Jan 8, 2019 19:46
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Sinteres posted:The whataboutism is getting pretty heavy here. Now the list of countries that have to acknowledge their wrongdoing before Turkey can is Germany, Japan, the US, UK and Greece. Any others? It's not whataboutism when it's an obvious double standard. Greece invades Turkey and burns down villages in an attempt to racially cleanse lands, this isnt ethnic cleansing or an attempt at genocide because the Greeks are an ancient warrior race fighting for their freedom and their racial homeland.
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Jan 8, 2019 19:50
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The only people defending genocide are you and the other guy who claim Turks didn't do the Armenian genocide, and that waving a magic wand makes Turkey not the heir of the Ottoman Empire, lol. Point out one guy defending in any way any sort of other genocide itt, if you like whataboutism so much, m8.
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Jan 8, 2019 19:56
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steinrokkan posted:The only people defending genocide are you and the other guy who claim Turks didn't do the Armenian genocide, and that waving a magic wand makes Turkey not the heir of the Ottoman Empire, lol. My point is the west only cares about the persecution of Christians, it's loving ridiculous to act all high and mighty about the Muslim savages who destroy the plucky Christian villages and then just handwave it away when the inverse happens. it's an extension of the deus vult alt right people who justify the crusades HorrificExistence fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Jan 8, 2019 |
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Jan 8, 2019 20:06
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almighty posted:Nah, Turkey moved in back in the day under the auspices of the Treaty of London as a guarantor state because actual ultra-fascist Greeks wanted to unify the entire Cyprus with Greece to attain their dream of Enosis through a military coup against the legitimate Cypriot government. Yes, Greece attempted to rape the island, triggering Turkey's actual raping of the island. I have no idea what you think you're "nah"ing there, since you'd have to be paying little to no attention to realize that Erdogan's regime is deeply loathing of the Turkish Cypriots, and that Turkish policy has been for many a moon to move settlers in from Turkey to North Cyprus. Israel style. Something that not only screws with unification talks, but is very unwelcome to Turkish Cypriots who have major cultural differences with these settlers, who are coming from very religious and conservative backwater parts of Anatolia. Oh and yeah, the only thing Erdogan cares about is having a base there (just like the British). Concern for Turkish Cypriots is wonderfully naive to think as the motive of the Turkish government. Y'know, the same one that has held Varosha hostage for like 45 years rather than letting the Turkish Cypriots use it. Ever been to Famagusta? It's a shithole! Used to be the shining light of the island!
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Jan 8, 2019 20:07
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HorrificExistence posted:My point is the west only cares about the persecution of Christians, it's loving ridiculous to act all high and mighty about the Muslim savages who destroy the plucky Christian villages and then just handwave it away when the inverse happens. Interested to hear more theories about the motivations behind people of different religions from the guy who calls Shia snake worshipers and polytheists.
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Jan 8, 2019 20:10
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enraged_camel posted:This is just false equivalence, and underscores the actual reason Turks have a problem with calling it "genocide" and equating it with other genocides. Unlike the Jews, who were living peacefully in Germany and participating peacefully in German society, the Armenians did in fact take up arms against the Ottomans in a very opportunistic fashion (goaded by, among others, Russia, who was trying to destabilize the Ottomans on the Eastern Front), attacked and burned Ottoman villages and slaughtered countless civilians. The Ottomans did have to divert a significant portion of their military to deal with these uprisings, which unfortunately resulted in them perishing during the forced relocations.  This completely ignores that Armenians took up arms in the 1890s in response the Great Massacres in which 300,000 were killed due to Sultan Hamid II's paranoid and rejection of the reform movement to rule as an absolute monarch.
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Jan 8, 2019 20:11
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You see, the Jews couldn't be trusted not to open a home front as fifth columnists. Furthermore, as a staunch freedom fighter and anti-imperialist I believe...
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Jan 8, 2019 20:15
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I like the subtle implication that the holocaust would be justified if the Jews did resist the Germans. Enranged, nationalism is a disease, embrace the unifying power of Faith instead. We are all creatures of the Almighty, and Armenians are brothers of the book.
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Jan 8, 2019 20:19
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HorrificExistence posted:I like the subtle implication that the holocaust would be justified if the Jews did resist the Germans. Yeah, I liked that part of your posting too, that's why I made fun of it, you scumbag.
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Jan 8, 2019 20:20
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