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nm posted:Chicago's going to kill that poor kicker, even though it was tipped and the bears played like garbage. I feel like kind of what he's describing is early lawyer-job insecurity coupled with his workload probably causing him burnout symptoms already. The unfortunate thing is if the work is inflexible and/or the boss is an rear end in a top hat, the only cure is getting rid of the cause (the job). At the same time, I don't know what Mr. Nice's job entails from a workload/time managment perspective. Maybe better time managment helps? Maybe it's one of those jobs where you really can't give a gently caress about anything at all and just be a cog in the machine? Especially that last part I feel seems common among the higher stress lawyer positions. It self-selects for psychopaths because they are the only ones able to go day in and day out "welp, you lost sucks to be you, NEXT!" and not feel that twinge that blossoms into full-blown burnout at the slightest provocation. I don't have a solution, really. I'm looking for one for myself because I'm starting to feel the burn and so far all I got is "change jobs".
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Jan 7, 2019 09:04
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I had mountain dew for breakfast. Beer for lunch. What I'm saying is I have ways of coping with 1st year Crim Burnout.
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Jan 7, 2019 09:45
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Crim law, family law, and anything involving kids is going to be inherently more emotionally draining than other areas. Feeling stressed/burnt out is totally normal. What does your case load look like?
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Jan 7, 2019 14:43
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For some people it helps to remember that your job isn't to "win" - its to put together the most effective defense possible given your facts. And remember that the vast majority of these people got themselves into this situation. Its not callous to understand that; its realistic. You can't undo their choices, you can only give them the representation they deserve, and let the chips fall where they may. Focus on the process, not the outcome. yes I know its impossible but it helps to try
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Jan 7, 2019 14:59
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Also remeber that each and every day you have a chance to rub it in the face of any fuckwad that gets between you and what you deserve (want).
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Jan 7, 2019 15:21
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Blarzgh is right. I may be on the other side. But the sentiment is similar. I’ve lost murder trials where I know the little shitweasel was guilty as gently caress. But between hearsay problems, unsympathetic victims, and a block full of witnesses with sudden cases of amnesia, leaving us with one “snitch” willing to testify... not guilty. It sucks having to see the victims family hear the verdict. It sucks knowing a sociopath walked. But you need to find the healthy medium between “oh well. Going home to play x box.” And becoming so emotionally invested in your work that you can’t take losing. Your job isn’t to win. My job as a prosecutor is to make sure a the admissible evidence got in front of the jury in a way that makes sense and protect the record against appeal. Your job is to make sure nothing inadmissible gets in (unless it’s a strategic call) and make sure the jury holds me to my burden. And to preserve issues for appeal. Beyond that it’s out of both our hands.
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Jan 7, 2019 16:12
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It's not so much the outcome that's weighing on me, because I know that is outside of my control. I've had a lot of wins and not so many losses, to boot. I'm not leaving work at work, though. I'm going to sleep thinking about cases. I wake up thinking about cases. I've got families that come in to me almost daily with everything they've been able to scrape together to try and mitigate the decisions of their dumbass kids/spouses/parents/siblings. There's a lot of misery around everything I do, and these people look to me as a savior. I'm not, though, and I don't know that I ever can be. I didn't want a job with 60+ hours a week because I was worried about being able to physically and mentally handle it. I don't think I'm doing well at it. I have a lot of things that have been neglected in my personal life and I've left some people hanging on some professional stuff as well. I'm not eating well and I'm not sleeping well. I basically work and then come home and fall asleep on my couch. I haven't slept great in years anyways, and I'm definitely not being helped by my work. If my mind hasn't changed by the end of this week, I'm going to sit down and talk with my boss again. I had a long talk with her last friday when I first brought up that I felt completely overwhelmed and unsure. I'm going to propose that I just work on the cases currently assigned, don't take on any new ones, and shift to part time once my full load is gone. We have a fully licensed clerk on staff who could step immediately into new cases while I'm winding down. I want to help people, but I can't sacrifice my life for this job. I've already permanently broke myself physically and mentally in the navy. I don't think it's good to go through a lot of the same stuff again.
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Jan 7, 2019 17:23
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Jeez. Suggestion. How are your research and briefing skills? And does your firm do appeals? Appellate work might be a good way to still feel you are “helping people” but there’s a little less client contact and it’s more academic than emotional. At the end of the day though, where you’re at sounds really unhealthy. Does your state have a “lawyers helping lawyers” program? (Basically free bar organized mental health/counseling/I just need to talk to someone programs)
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Jan 7, 2019 17:31
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Mr. Nice! posted:It's not so much the outcome that's weighing on me, because I know that is outside of my control. I've had a lot of wins and not so many losses, to boot. Eerie. That's exactly how I feel every single day. Only for me it started maybe four years ago and slowly ramped up, likely due to my job probably being a lot less intense than yours, and I guess I get a break every now and then to do more academic advisory type stuff, municipal tribunals and even some appellate work which actually helps take my mind off the crim defence stuff. One of the perks of being a general practice guy I suppose. That and of course, loving labour laws. Can't fault your logic then, as I'm looking for new work for pretty much exactly the same reason. There's no crime in taking care of yourself, in fact that's probably what you should consider your first duty since the world doesn't loving care at all and nobody else is going to do it for you.
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Jan 7, 2019 17:41
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I'm in the don't quit (yet) camp. It sounds like you're hitting the "Idk what the hell I'm doing and my screw ups have real world consequences" wall. And that's ok, it would be way scarier if you never hit that wall. It just means you're self aware. Those 60 hour work weeks will shrink with time and experience. Unfortunately, a lot of people will have to suffer before you become better at doing the job. That's just how it is though, nobody is Clarence Darrow when they start.
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Jan 7, 2019 18:27
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Mr. Nice! posted:It's not so much the outcome that's weighing on me, because I know that is outside of my control. I've had a lot of wins and not so many losses, to boot. One of the things we were taught to do in our clinic by a local jailhouse shrink who specializes in self care research is to insert an activity into our routine that operates as a definitive "work is over" marker for our minds. Suggestions included adding a regular stop on your commute home for some type of activity you enjoy, even if it's just a short walk or a meal. As long as it's an activity that signals to you that work is over. Sounds kind of silly but my professor with 10 years at the PDs office said she'd walk around their office twice and smoke a Joe and then she felt she could leave work behind and focus on what she needed to focus on. Not taking work calls or anything when you're on your time is prettybig too.
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Jan 7, 2019 18:53
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Mr. Nice! posted:I'm not leaving work at work, though. I'm going to sleep thinking about cases. I wake up thinking about cases. I've got families that come in to me almost daily with everything they've been able to scrape together to try and mitigate the decisions of their dumbass kids/spouses/parents/siblings. There's a lot of misery around everything I do, and these people look to me as a savior. I'm not, though, and I don't know that I ever can be. I could have probably written this word for word a few years ago. In the law you HAVE to take care of yourself first. Your top priority should always be your own physical and mental health because it's an extremely stressful job that allows for almost no physical activity. This is even more important in criminal and family law because the stakes and stresses are so much higher. The stress you feel is universal in our practice area and is no indication on your abilities as a lawyer. However, if you don't take care of yourself and allow yourself some actual downtime to recharge (inactivity is not the same as downtime) then you'll burn out and start neglecting cases. Personally, one thing I've found to manage stress is by calendaring my downtime like any other task. If I take next Wednesday off I put on the calendar so everyone knows not to schedule anything that day. If you have a busy practice there's always a near infinite number of things you could be doing at any time and work will easily expand to fill any gaps in your schedule. And when I do downtime I still try and plan to do something that day so I don't just lay on the couch and stew about my cases. Also, I feel it's important to do some sort of physical activity during the day. The work we do is stressful but also incredibly sedentary which means our bodies have no natural way to dissipate all of the fight or flight responses we feel. Physical activity not only helps relieve stress but gives you a physical break from working and lets your brain know the day is over. This is more important these days now that we and clients are connected 24/7 and its easy to blur our work and home lives.
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Jan 7, 2019 21:13
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GamingHyena posted:In the law you HAVE to take care of yourself first. also in bed
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Jan 7, 2019 21:41
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but for real I guess i can stop being an active detriment to the thread for once: Mr Nice the feelings you're having are shared by just about every lawyer at your stage of your career. im not trying to minimize your feelings, the fact that almost everyone has them does not make them any less of a problem. but i was there too. hyenaman was too. even noted sociopath phil mouskevitz probably was too, back in the 1820s. its just part of the gig unfortunately. try to remember that the next guy they put in your job wont be any better at it than you are and may be actively worse so don't get caught up in feeling like you're not good enough. re: self-care, it's something you get better at over time. all my suggestions revolve around alcoholism so idk listen to hyenabro
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Jan 7, 2019 21:54
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You might also think about a transition to a PD job if you can get it. Much lower stress when you don't have Grandma's house paying for a good result. Also, hours don't matter and going home is expected.
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Jan 7, 2019 22:04
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Mr. Nice! posted:It's not so much the outcome that's weighing on me, because I know that is outside of my control. I've had a lot of wins and not so many losses, to boot. Give it a few months. If you bail now you might regret it down the road. In the meantime maybe you could work out some time off?
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Jan 7, 2019 23:44
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Stupid government shutdown just cost me a free trip to Monterey (there was work involved). They've gone too far this time.
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Jan 7, 2019 23:49
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Pook Good Mook posted:You might also think about a transition to a PD job if you can get it. Much lower stress when you don't have Grandma's house paying for a good result. Also, hours don't matter and going home is expected. While PD jobs offer great QOL compared to private practice (not having to bill in and of itself is a godsend) I've never seen a PD office that didn't have a massive caseload. I've compared numbers with some of my current PD friends and their caseloads are running about double mine in private practice.
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Jan 8, 2019 03:04
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GamingHyena posted:While PD jobs offer great QOL compared to private practice (not having to bill in and of itself is a godsend) I've never seen a PD office that didn't have a massive caseload. I've compared numbers with some of my current PD friends and their caseloads are running about double mine in private practice. Depends on how you define caseload and the types of cases. I’ve got 184 habeas files right now (that I am jettisoning as soon as they hire my replacement). People in my office with a fraction of that are equally as busy. Also... speaking of. I have to schadenfreude. One of the firm’s that only exists to defraud the state by churning habeas files had a mass exodus of associates such that the OCPD took like 40 files back from them. Probably won’t be assigning any new cases any time soon.
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Jan 8, 2019 03:18
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PD work is easier because it becomes a predictable day to day procedure. Very few cases require pre trial motions. The most important work is being able to recognize those few cases and for the others make sure they get the same deal everyone else gets. The benefit of not dealing with money or reports is a godsend. You also tend to build trust faster with courthouse staff and judges because they "get" what you're doing. If a PD files something I know before I read it that I'm in trouble.
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Jan 8, 2019 04:08
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Mr. Nice! posted:It's not so much the outcome that's weighing on me, because I know that is outside of my control. I've had a lot of wins and not so many losses, to boot. Just gonna echo a lot of what everyone else has said as well - I encountered this in my first few months at my current job and it still hits me semi regularly. Hyena in particular is 100% correct that you need to be able to put that divide and limit what you take home. It won't be 100%, I sure as gently caress can't keep everything in the office, but once I get home I have a routine I go through that is basically me flipping the switch that the cases don't get to occupy my headspace until I'm back in the office the next morning. Find whatever does it for you, for me it's getting into something comfortable, getting the kitchen going, and putting on some dumbass show or playing games. As far as the savior bit, because I encounter this all the time with my clients - you're not there to carry their world on your shoulders. It's realizing you can't just wave it all away. There's a degree of boundary setting that has to be done, both with clients and honestly with yourself. Your boss can definitely offer advice on how they shoulder it and set those personal boundaries, and so can the resources Actus mentioned re: help lines.
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Jan 8, 2019 04:18
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ActusRhesus posted:Also... speaking of. I have to schadenfreude. One of the firm’s that only exists to defraud the state by churning habeas files had a mass exodus of associates such that the OCPD took like 40 files back from them. Probably won’t be assigning any new cases any time soon. I would be interested to hear from you how that sort of firm exists, and what policies could be put in place to stop them.
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Jan 8, 2019 07:00
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GamingHyena posted:I could have probably written this word for word a few years ago. In the law you HAVE to take care of yourself first. Your top priority should always be your own physical and mental health because it's an extremely stressful job that allows for almost no physical activity. This is even more important in criminal and family law because the stakes and stresses are so much higher. The stress you feel is universal in our practice area and is no indication on your abilities as a lawyer. However, if you don't take care of yourself and allow yourself some actual downtime to recharge (inactivity is not the same as downtime) then you'll burn out and start neglecting cases. This is a great post and I've received a lot of the same advice myself. That said, all of the above is easier said than done and takes both knowledge, effort and experience to pull off. If Mr. Nice is having this reaction after a fairly short time in that gig, there might also be something else amiss in terms of working hours, caseload etc. that badly exacerbates this thing we all know and love. Mr. Nice seems like a pretty mature and well-reasoned guy, and I don't think he's really that easy to shake. If he feels like he's in genuine trouble, I don't want to be telling him that it's completely normal. Disregarding that it shouldn't be normal, I honestly don't know how well I myself would cope with what I perceive to be his workload. There are other factors as well, the traditional "burnout" factors that really are especially applicable to lawyers:
These are all super duper high risk factors for burnout to various degrees. If it wasn't for your hosed up healthcare system what I'd usually recommend before deciding to leave a job would be to see your GP (doc) and get a consult with a burnout psych specialist to talk over the symptoms and get a recommendation, but I don't know if that's even possible. That's what I did, and the shrink told me in no uncertain terms that my current job was making me sick for absolutely sure and that I should find a different job as soon as possible. That was ten months ago, but I'm still looking and also trying what GamingHyena suggested as well as some excercises that was suggested by the shrink to lessen the symptoms. Keeps it mostly managable at least. Really I should escape to the cabin and stay there until I stop hating people, but Mr. Nice you can borrow it for a month if you'd like to wind down a little.
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Jan 8, 2019 10:39
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Thanks everyone. Healthcare, thankfully, is not something I have to worry about. I have mental health resources on call, and can get in with a therapist in less than a week thanks to technically being a combat vet. We have interns and clerks back, so that helps. I don't know for sure what I'm going to do next, honestly. I really appreciate the words from everyone.
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Jan 8, 2019 12:23
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Discendo Vox posted:I would be interested to hear from you how that sort of firm exists, and what policies could be put in place to stop them. , vox said, massaging his weird boner through his dungarees
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Jan 8, 2019 13:04
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Soothing Vapors posted:, vox said, massaging his weird boner through his dungarees Hey now that’s just uncalled for. I’m a pleated two-tone khakis man.
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Jan 8, 2019 13:07
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Discendo Vox posted:I would be interested to hear from you how that sort of firm exists, and what policies could be put in place to stop them. When I figure it out, I’ll tell you. Best I’ve got is rampant cronyism and a broken legislature.
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Jan 8, 2019 16:30
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And just quit my job. Had a hearing this morning where I had to attempt to rip into a crying witness on the stand to discredit her testimony. I’m not about this life. I feel like poo poo. I’m still available to get paid hourly as they need for appearances and such, and my boss is willing to help me find a better job for me.
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Jan 8, 2019 18:55
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No loving Fair, it took me like four years before I was able to make someone cry under oath
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Jan 8, 2019 19:00
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But on a serious note, good luck, and consider yourself very fortunate to have a boss that's being so cool. Should be a big help moving forward.
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Jan 8, 2019 19:01
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Give a serious look at appellate if criminal law interests you in theory but the raw emotion hits you too hard.
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Jan 8, 2019 19:05
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Mr. Nice! posted:And just quit my job. Had a hearing this morning where I had to attempt to rip into a crying witness on the stand to discredit her testimony. I’m not about this life. I feel like poo poo. I’m still available to get paid hourly as they need for appearances and such, and my boss is willing to help me find a better job for me. Respect, homie. It's brutal. When I'm off the clock, I really try my hardest not to be serious. I gotta be serious all loving day. Can't survive otherwise.
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Jan 8, 2019 19:33
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More lawyers owned by the redaction fuckup https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/5677522/Response-to-Order-of-the-Court.pdf Highlight > copy > paste the redactions LOL Perhaps this is intentional considering, but come on.
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Jan 8, 2019 20:07
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Phil Moscowitz posted:More lawyers owned by the redaction fuckup You'd think at least Epstein Becker Green could afford a copy of Adobe Acrobat Professional. Also,  https://twitter.com/Popehat/status/1082724527287595009 ulmont fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Jan 8, 2019 |
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Jan 8, 2019 20:42
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Bushido Brown posted:Going to try to actually post in this thread this year. Somehow made it to my fourth year in biglaw. Didn't plan on lasting this long. Big law is terrible and I wish you luck on getting out. It was as a 4th year that I made the active decision to leave and I was gone just after my 5th year began. It's not as difficult as you think and make sure to not jump at the first offer that comes your way because it's a way out. Big law puts you in a position to be in control of your future, so make sure your next step is somewhere where you want to go. Pay off your debts - if you're a 4th year, you make $255,000/year. Don't care what your debt load is - that's enough cash to put a significant dent in it.
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Jan 8, 2019 20:47
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ulmont posted:You'd think at least Epstein Becker Green could afford a copy of Adobe Acrobat Professional. At the PDs office, we didn't get it. We printed things out and used a sharpie and scanned it. It isn't that loving hard.
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Jan 8, 2019 23:23
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Sab0921 posted:Big law is terrible and I wish you luck on getting out. It was as a 4th year that I made the active decision to leave and I was gone just after my 5th year began. It's not as difficult as you think and make sure to not jump at the first offer that comes your way because it's a way out. Big law puts you in a position to be in control of your future, so make sure your next step is somewhere where you want to go. OK but what year should I bail if I want to buy a home in the Bay Area?
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Jan 9, 2019 00:13
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I think you and your biglaw spice both have to make it to like 13.
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Jan 9, 2019 00:17
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Vox Nihili posted:OK but what year should I bail if I want to buy a home in the Bay Area? You should have bailed from big law the moment your realized your entire existence is dedicated to being on call 24/7 to grease the wheels of capitalism to exacerbate the transfer of wealth from working people to the capital class (quite literally if you're in any sort of PE transactional practice). Live your best life - quit.
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Jan 9, 2019 00:51
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Sab0921 posted:You should have bailed from big law the moment your realized your entire existence is dedicated to being on call 24/7 to grease the wheels of capitalism to exacerbate the transfer of wealth from working people to the capital class (quite literally if you're in any sort of PE transactional practice). Live your best life - quit. I had a job doing union stuff but it turned out to mostly involve subrogating people's workers comp and injury settlement money and telling people that their dying spouse isn't covered under their plan/their kid's disability definitely isn't covered (alopecia treatment is OBVIOUSLY cosmetic), etc. Plus it didn't pay well enough to let me afford my preferred luxuries (housing, cat food, etc.)
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Jan 9, 2019 01:02
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