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Oh no, not electrical tape.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:37
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Krispy Wafer posted:German culture is pretty rule based, which meant an evil person who was capable of rationalizing terrible deeds under the law was more likely to succeed there as opposed to France or Italy. You want to re-think this sentence?
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Jan 10, 2019 21:37
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Koalas March posted:If you can't even say "hey that sounds kinda racist because x" without causing an irreparable rift and all the melodrama or whatever HOW loving RACIST IS YOUR FAMILY I told my mom she was racist monday and she didn't even do anything other than talk about someone else being racist. I just pointed out she was also no doubt racist (implicitly due to societal programming). She agreed. It was good times.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:37
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mdemone posted:Trump: surprised to see that wheels are ubiquitous, since he had thought they were only used during the medieval era. I think his 'point' is that he heard someone call the wall medieval, or a medieval solution, and his response is to ramble on about how the wheel is that old, but we still use wheels on our cars, and they work so good, so why can't wall?
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Jan 10, 2019 21:37
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Pylons posted:Those people still exist though? Like, that's kinda the problem! It absolutely is, but the way to take power away from them is to attack the underlying structure that handed them power in the first place.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:37
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Neo Rasa posted:He also starred in a documentary about BronyCon. He does a voice in the show, I know this because my 10 year old daughter needed help figuring out which was the first episode his character was in last weekend. So it makes total sense that he'd be involved in fandom for the show and is about as surprising as him showing up in a Trek Documentary.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:37
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Koalas March posted:If you can't even say "hey that sounds kinda racist because x" without causing an irreparable rift and all the melodrama or whatever HOW loving RACIST IS YOUR FAMILY It's an interesting question! I'd say they are not very racist. I mean, in the sense of "seeing racist poo poo acted out." I've never heard welfare queen poo poo from them, because anabaptists know people who rely on welfare, if they haven't themselves. I've never heard poo poo about who's lazy or not, because they are strong on the idea that we all struggle, and sometimes struggles aren't visible to us. I've never heard poo poo about Mexicans invading our country, because their church sponsors immigrants and refugees. What do you make of all that? I'm open to hearing it, because they are absolutely, in the sense all white people are, benefitting in some ways from a racial caste system, but they've also voluntarily opted out of a lot of that as well; they run their own businesses and live extraordinarly frugally, so they can donate more. They contribute to international aid efforts targeting the poorest countries, some of which have a missionary component attached, some of which do not. They seem pretty complicated to me. So what does it mean to you, to hear those things? What do you think the secret racism is there?
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Jan 10, 2019 21:37
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Koalas March posted:If you can't even say "hey that sounds kinda racist because x" without causing an irreparable rift and all the melodrama or whatever HOW loving RACIST IS YOUR FAMILY Pretty much exactly that racist and/or worse (if your relatives are Trump voters)
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Jan 10, 2019 21:37
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selec posted:Unless we can talk honestly, we can't talk.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:38
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Quorum posted:Yep. Anyone who hasn't read Chris Hayes's essay from 2004 about undecided voters really should; the ultimate point he makes is that an enormous swathe of the American population simply does not think of politics as something that affects their lives in a concrete way. I don't think that's an inevitable state of affairs-- people being checked out of politics is a good outcome from the point of view of a certain sort of elite decision-maker-- but it's the case right now. "You can either vote for the war or for the war! I'd really like it if you voted for the war." "Gee these dullards just can't seem to conceive of politics as something that connects to their lives in a concrete way or something that their vote has any power to influence. Heh, morons." *serious smart-person campaign goes down in flames to a mental adolescent and his sidekick the most repulsive man on earth* That essay is such a hilarious self-own because he's incapable of articulating a single way in which a Kerry victory would do anything for anyone, because it wouldn't have, yet instead of catching on to that critical problem with the candidate and the campaign he just writes off the voters as too stupid vote for Kerry regardless. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Jan 10, 2019 |
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Jan 10, 2019 21:38
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I find people who call themselves "not political" generally don't pay attention to political news, are only vaguely aware of who's in charge and what they're doing, are unaware of current issues, don't see the connection between what's happening in politics and how it affects their lives, and don't vote. Generally there seems to be less of these people these days, as Trump kinda has a way of forcing his way into your awareness whether you want him to or not, but when things where more "normal" there were a lot of these people.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:39
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selec posted:This is why you ignore them, as voters, as a whole. I want my in-laws to be marginalized, politically speaking. I want them to be outnumbered. But that happens because we got more voters activated, rather than me loving up my family relations to maybe convince two people to vote differently, and cause rifts and damage to systems that we'll likely all need to be able to persevere in a world continually more and more hosed over by capital.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:39
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Skex posted:He does a voice in the show, I know this because my 10 year old daughter needed help figuring out which was the first episode his character was in last weekend. So it makes total sense that he'd be involved in fandom for the show and is about as surprising as him showing up in a Trek Documentary. Plus it's just a really interesting documentary about, errrr, unique people, shall we say.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:39
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selec posted:Unless we can talk honestly, we can't talk. People 1000% need to start (or in some cases keep) shunning people for racism and other bigotry. Some fraction of people are hardcore racists, but a lot of people are just dipshit followers who go along with whatever people do around them and will not do things that get them socially shunned and excluded. If people stopped tolerating their racist relatives it would make a huge difference. Besides, then you don't have to sit through awkward family holidays or whatever. Also, Herstory Begins Now posted:Tbh if you go through the full ringer of being actually unwilling to be around people who are even passingly racist, homophobic, or transphobic, just embrace your new reality of being friends with a bunch of queer people and poc and so forth. Middle-class and up USA is basically about putting up with bigoted white people around you so you can be a part of the tribe with all the related benefits or just doing your own thing with people who actually reflect your values E: also selec, no one ever expresses more than like 10% of their racism verbally. If they're demonstrably bigoted in any consistent way there is always more beneath the surface
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Jan 10, 2019 21:40
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Groovelord Neato posted:i re-read that article fairly often and it's still weird to me how many americans are straight up space aliens. I tend to blame a collection of factors, including but not limited to the deliberate destruction of public education in America, the structural factors in American democracy that keep it deliberately unresponsive to popular pressure, the diffuse nature of political power combined with the presidential system keeping so much focus on an office with comparatively little influence in the life of any individual voter, and the anti-intellectual thread of American culture which discourages knowing and thinking about things beyond your personal experience. Fortunately, at least a couple of those problems do have potential policy solutions and I think any reform which functions to improve public education or make politics more responsive to the public will tend to reduce the problem overall.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:41
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Krispy Wafer posted:German culture is pretty rule based, which meant an evil person who was capable of rationalizing terrible deeds under the law was more likely to succeed there as opposed to France or Italy. Demonstrating top historical awareness there lol
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Jan 10, 2019 21:41
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Groovelord Neato posted:it's just weird to attack politicians for being heartless monstrous dullards and completely disconnect them and their actions from the very people that voted them into power. I feel like you can explain like, a dude as being evil or stupid or cruel or a monster or mutant or mentally ill or whatever, as you have more and more people you kinda gotta stop that sort of personal flaws type explanation of the world. Your specific uncle that hates gays might just be a real jerk, or a stupid man, or horrible, if you look and see some country in africa has support of homosexuals in the single percentage you can't use the same sort of "must be a country of bad stupid people" to explain it, you gotta look at history and culture and reasons for why it ended up that way, and some of those millions of people are good and some are bad and people are complicated.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:42
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VitalSigns posted:"You can either vote for the war or for the war! I'd really like it if you voted for the war." Ah yes both sides are the same
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Jan 10, 2019 21:42
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selec posted:Unless we can talk honestly, we can't talk. I'm not going to give much weight to the keen political mind who has decided that because you, personally, feel uncomfortable calling out racism in your family that therefore we shouldn't be calling out racism in our political opponents. Because it is a very self centered and stupid take.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:43
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pookel posted:OK but, like, you don't need to gently caress up your family relations to just occasionally point out that racist things are racist. If they are good people, they will tolerate hearing someone they love offer mild critique of their racist opinions or racist jokes or support for politicians who are doing racist things.  I find it helps to ask them, "Do you really think that? That doesn't sound fair to me," and then tell them why. It doesn't work every time, but sometimes it does.To whit: HappyHippo posted:Ah yes both sides are the same Do you really think that's what he was saying?
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Jan 10, 2019 21:43
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Koalas March posted:But apparently you can't talk honestly, that's what your whole post was about. You refuse to talk honestly to them because you're putting your personal comfort over antiracism. We do talk honestly, though. What should I say? "Trump's very racist. If you support him, you're racist too." "Well, I'm not racist? I mean, my sister-in-law is Thai? And I have nieces and nephews from nearly every race you can imagine?" "But he wants to do all this racist stuff." "I don't think he'll do that, and what's more important is the lives of the unborn." There's no getting past that last one. That's the driver. For what's it's worth, we're getting the sense that they're probably done voting. But by and large, we just don't talk politics; there's no interest on their side because that's one more piece of society they've largely withdrawn from. I mean, you have to understand: this is a church that up until a few years ago expressly prohibited flying the American flag outside their churches or schools. They are not normal American fundies that way. There's a schism going on right now, in fact, between the liberal and conservative wings. But those two wings also span families and communities that in many ways refuse to be torn apart. But hey, if we can develop the perfect praxis of YELL AT YOUR PARENTS AND DISAVOW THEM to lead to the changes we want, I'm all for it. Like I said, my goal is to make their politics and votes irrelevant, because if you're focusing on individual voters, you've already lost. You have to do big numbers, or you're doing nothing at all. It's like marketing that way; it's not important why one person did or did not open your email, it's important why 4000 people did or did not.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:43
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I feel like you can explain like, a dude as being evil or stupid or cruel or a monster or mutant or mentally ill or whatever, as you have more and more people you kinda gotta stop that sort of personal flaws type explanation of the world. Your specific uncle that hates gays might just be a real jerk, or a stupid man, or horrible, if you look and see some country in africa has support of homosexuals in the single percentage you can't use the same sort of "must be a country of bad stupid people" to explain it, you gotta look at history and culture and reasons for why it ended up that way, and some of those millions of people are good and some are bad and people are complicated. the people that vote for our monstrous dullards are part of the the most pampered generation to ever exist.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:44
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Caros posted:I think his 'point' is that he heard someone call the wall medieval, or a medieval solution, and his response is to ramble on about how the wheel is that old, but we still use wheels on our cars, and they work so good, so why can't wall? Thank you. That was bothering me.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:45
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Like I wildly gently caress with people who are racist, homophobic, or transphobic in front of me to their face and literally it's only been a boon for my social life. I don't know many straight white guys anymore, but I can't say that I feel like I'm really missing out. E: selec, ask them 'you think trump and his cronies don't want to gently caress over your nieces and nephews just as badly as he wants to gently caress over refugees?' Make it personal if they already have that connection to poc
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Jan 10, 2019 21:45
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pookel posted:OK but, like, you don't need to gently caress up your family relations to just occasionally point out that racist things are racist. If they are good people, they will tolerate hearing someone they love offer mild critique of their racist opinions or racist jokes or support for politicians who are doing racist things. Like I said, they don't make those kind of jokes, and they'd probably recoil in horror at them. They're weird, as our image of Republicans go, but not so weird as we'd maybe think.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:45
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Select I am not your racism Sherpa. I have talked goons through this kind of thing before but my requirements are you treat me with some respect (not making demands!) I don't know your family, I can only go by what you tell me, which so far is passive racism but your reaction is... Interesting. The white fragility really jumped out 😂😂
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Jan 10, 2019 21:46
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lol https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/1083455773760471040
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Jan 10, 2019 21:46
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Herstory Begins Now posted:People 1000% need to start (or in some cases keep) shunning people for racism and other bigotry. Some fraction of people are hardcore racists, but a lot of people are just dipshit followers who go along with whatever people do around them and will not do things that get them socially shunned and excluded. If people stopped tolerating their racist relatives it would make a huge difference. Besides, then you don't have to sit through awkward family holidays or whatever. I've cut a few people out post-2016 for racism. But as I said, it's hard to detect the racism we're all sure is in my in-laws hearts, because they recoil at expressions of it, are deeply comfortable around people of color like their family members, and in the end, just prioritize pro-life politics over everything. How should I suss it out?
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Jan 10, 2019 21:47
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Gobekli Tepe definitely has some walls
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Jan 10, 2019 21:48
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Koalas March posted:Select I am not your racism Sherpa. I have talked goons through this kind of thing before but my requirements are you treat me with some respect (not making demands!) It's pretty fuckin' racist to use Sherpa in that context, fwiw.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:48
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Friendly reminder that Jay Smooth has a great vid on how to call out racist stuff that should be required viewing before family gatherings with those relatives. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b0Ti-gkJiXc
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Jan 10, 2019 21:48
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Being pro-life is pretty bad in and of itself, imo
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Jan 10, 2019 21:48
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Like I wildly gently caress with people who are racist, homophobic, or transphobic in front of me to their face and literally it's only been a boon for my social life. I don't know many straight white guys anymore, but I can't say that I feel like I'm really missing out. The nieces and nephews are all citizens, and as I said, some of them vote Republican. "If you think Republicans are racist, why does Tim vote for them?"
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Jan 10, 2019 21:49
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selec posted:We do talk honestly, though. What should I say? "Trump's very racist. If you support him, you're racist too." My dad used to be a Republican. I've been calling Republicans evil racist fuckers for years. He always argued against it. Trump happened, and since he's fundamentally still a good person who was definitely fooled for a long time, went "what the gently caress," admitted I was right, and now agrees with the arguments I've been making. Yeah he's not gonna be a full blown socialist any time soon, but since he was a person who could be convinced with enough time and effort it was worth the process. It was still bad and wrong of him not to change his mind earlier. If you think so little of your family that you're comfortable with them being hosed up racists forever then that's on you. You're also enabling their racism, and that's on you too.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:49
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I'll have you know Cicero's letters to Atticus are widely considered to be the Instagram Stories of Classical Antiquity. 
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Jan 10, 2019 21:49
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Crow Jane posted:Being pro-life is pretty bad in and of itself, imo Totally agree, but again, they're not out protesting or screaming at people getting them. They stay at home and pray for those folks, and every four years vote GOP.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:50
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Great now I have to tell my wife I'm going to be watching CNN all day on her birthday.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:50
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HappyHippo posted:Ah yes both sides are the same They clearly aren't, but if you can't articulate a single concrete thing your candidate will do for anyone that's a problem with the candidate and the campaign. Fortunately running better campaigns is a problem that's possible to fix whereas genetically engineering a new type of human who doesn't need reasons to vote for someone is a much more difficult problem.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:50
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selec posted:I've cut a few people out post-2016 for racism. But as I said, it's hard to detect the racism we're all sure is in my in-laws hearts, because they recoil at expressions of it, are deeply comfortable around people of color like their family members, and in the end, just prioritize pro-life politics over everything. Really the entire playbook of witch-tests work on racists e: actual answer: they're your family, if you give a gently caress at all about not having racist family members I'm sure you'll figure something out
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Jan 10, 2019 21:50
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Ok I laughed pretty hard at this. Such leadership https://twitter.com/kwelkernbc/status/1083378463862636544?s=21
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Jan 10, 2019 21:50
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