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For all it's problems, and there are many, I think the scene I dislike the most from Into Darkness is the ship to ship dive. The Scotty stuff is ok even if Simon Pegg is really playing more Benji from MI than Scotty in that scene. I just INTENSELY dislike the Khan/Kirk dialog during that sequence. It feels too...familiar, too banal. Everything Khan does oozes of manipulation and contempt. But in this scene we have the two of them communicating with each other as if they were lifelong shipmates. It just doesn't fit. A better read of the scene would be to dispense with the debris avoidance drama and predictable cracked visor junk and instead have Khan subtly positioning himself behind Kirk with intent of using Kirk's body to slow himself down in the event the hatch didn't open. Kirk realizes this is happening but says nothing which then feeds into the "we're helping him" line.
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Jan 10, 2019 23:02
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Kirk in the reboot movies is straight up a terrible person. He's a sexual predator who harassed Christine Chapel into leaving the ship, has done nothing to earn command except be the protagonist and therefore right, and events constantly conspire to be about how great and right he is without him earning any of it.
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Jan 10, 2019 23:07
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Cythereal posted:Kirk in the reboot movies is straight up a terrible person. He's a sexual predator who harassed Christine Chapel into leaving the ship, has done nothing to earn command except be the protagonist and therefore right, and events constantly conspire to be about how great and right he is without him earning any of it. But kirk's always been the horn-dog sexual predator cowboy! I know this because I think I watched a couple episodes of Star Trek 20 years ago and popular culture has filled in the blanks.
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Jan 10, 2019 23:10
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Kirk raped a mountain, so
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Jan 10, 2019 23:18
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Baronjutter posted:But kirk's always been the horn-dog sexual predator cowboy! I know this because I think I watched a couple episodes of Star Trek 20 years ago and popular culture has filled in the blanks. It's the same way I get bugged about just about everyone who's used the Kobayashi Maru to show how badass a character is. In Wrath, the Maru isn't about how badass Kirk is. The Kobayashi Maru, the no-win scenario, is a recurring metaphor for death, and it's one part of a theme throughout the movie about how Kirk has always managed to cheat death. He's managed to win where he shouldn't have been able to win, but he can't keep doing it forever. Death will catch up to him, and in that movie it's the death of his closest friend. It's one beat in a whole movie about coming to grips with death and aging. And indeed, from Starfleet's perspective, the idea is valid: to know how a cadet will act when they know for a fact that they will not survive. Instead, "X beat the Kobayashi Maru!" became a shorthand for "X is a totally awesome badass worthy of Kirk!"
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Jan 10, 2019 23:19
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BrandonGK posted:Star Trek isn't Star Trek without heavy handed modern day allegories. I'm betting on some Brexit allegory with a Romulan refugee crisis leading to a rise in Isolationism and Xenophobia in the Federation. Oh gently caress off. More Orville fun, less Discovery grimdark. You don't have to gently caress off, I'm just making a point. Please gently caress on. Zesty fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Jan 10, 2019 |
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Jan 10, 2019 23:19
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So allegories and morality plays qualify as grimdark now?
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Jan 10, 2019 23:25
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How about a refugee crisis where the Federation aren't shitheads? There could still be plenty of room for conflict and bad evil actors working against it while the general Federation just takes it as given that the only moral choice is "well obviously these are people in distress we can't abandon them that would be awful and inhuman *turn to screen, glare*" The Star Trek way! MikeJF fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Jan 10, 2019 |
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Jan 10, 2019 23:41
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Big Mean Jerk posted:So allegories and morality plays qualify as grimdark now?
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Jan 10, 2019 23:49
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Cythereal posted:Kirk in the reboot movies is straight up a terrible person. He's a sexual predator who harassed Christine Chapel into leaving the ship, has done nothing to earn command except be the protagonist and therefore right, and events constantly conspire to be about how great and right he is without him earning any of it. This 100000000000%
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Jan 11, 2019 00:09
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Brawnfire posted:This is my problem, I can't remember all the timelines and which actually stuck. So Romulus is definitely gone in all timelines, Vulcan is gone in one timeline but not the "normal" one? Seems like the Kelvin timeline is dead now, but if they don't manage to figure out a way to protect Romulus with the 100+ years of advance notice they have now then it probably deserves to blow up.
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Jan 11, 2019 00:14
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Cythereal posted:The Kobayashi Maru, the no-win scenario, is a recurring metaphor for death, and it's one part of a theme throughout the movie about how Kirk has always managed to cheat death. He's managed to win where he shouldn't have been able to win, but he can't keep doing it forever. Death will catch up to him
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Jan 11, 2019 00:24
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Zesty posted:Oh gently caress off. More Orville fun, less Discovery grimdark. For someone with that avatar you seem to weirdly hate Star Trek, or are you just one of those snarky STD fans who confuses frat parties for humanization and war crimes for moral complexity
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Jan 11, 2019 00:53
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oh the baddie was supposed to be a romulan in JJ09?
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Jan 11, 2019 01:12
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simplefish posted:oh the baddie was supposed to be a romulan in JJ09? also Nero is such an on-the-nose name for a Romulan (since ST has always played up the Roman stuff with their ranks and such) that it's annoying the more you think about it.
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Jan 11, 2019 01:36
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bull3964 posted:For all it's problems, and there are many, I think the scene I dislike the most from Into Darkness is the ship to ship dive. remember how scotty murdered scott bakula's dog
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Jan 11, 2019 01:41
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FlamingLiberal posted:Here is another problem with ST09- Nero looks far more Romulan in his appearance pre-title in the film, but apparently an entire subplot showing at least some of what the Narada crew was doing for the decades between blowing up the Kelvin and running into the Enterprise was all cut out of the film. This involved the ship being captured by Klingons since it got damaged following the Kelvin battle and was drifting in space. The crew were tortured and imprisoned by Klingons for years before Nero broke them out and got the ship back. I get why you would have to cut something like this out of the movie because it didn't add much, but the problem is that Nero looks a lot different between that pre-title scene and the next time he appears on screen. Especially since Rom(e/ulus) literally burned.
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Jan 11, 2019 01:43
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Cythereal posted:Kirk in the reboot movies is straight up a terrible person. He's a sexual predator who harassed Christine Chapel into leaving the ship, has done nothing to earn command except be the protagonist and therefore right, and events constantly conspire to be about how great and right he is without him earning any of it. Uggh. I'd completely forgotten about the Chapel reference in Into Darkness until now. Bleh.
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Jan 11, 2019 02:23
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FlamingLiberal posted:Here is another problem with ST09- Nero looks far more Romulan in his appearance pre-title in the film, but apparently an entire subplot showing at least some of what the Narada crew was doing for the decades between blowing up the Kelvin and running into the Enterprise was all cut out of the film. This involved the ship being captured by Klingons since it got damaged following the Kelvin battle and was drifting in space. The crew were tortured and imprisoned by Klingons for years before Nero broke them out and got the ship back. I get why you would have to cut something like this out of the movie because it didn't add much, but the problem is that Nero looks a lot different between that pre-title scene and the next time he appears on screen. If I recall correctly one of the bigger issues the movie faced was it's production took place during a major writers union strike, so they had no ability to streamline plots or change anything. It was either shoot the exact script they had or omit things, and Nero's twenty year absence was one of the things that just got cut without any compensation for it's loss.
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Jan 11, 2019 02:53
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TheCenturion posted:Vulcout. Alternatively, Vulcan't.  "Are you a Vul-can, or a Vul-can't?"  "I am a Vul-CAN."
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Jan 11, 2019 03:29
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Seemlar posted:If I recall correctly one of the bigger issues the movie faced was it's production took place during a major writers union strike, so they had no ability to streamline plots or change anything. It was either shoot the exact script they had or omit things, and Nero's twenty year absence was one of the things that just got cut without any compensation for it's loss. gently caress man, they should have calles on this thread. I'm pretty sure it's not unionised and I've aewn better episode plots in here than a lot of episodes. I think we could hash out a film.
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Jan 11, 2019 10:21
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MikeJF posted:How about a refugee crisis where the Federation aren't shitheads? There could still be plenty of room for conflict and bad evil actors working against it while the general Federation just takes it as given that the only moral choice is "well obviously these are people in distress we can't abandon them that would be awful and inhuman *turn to screen, glare*" Hilariously, they did that exact scene in the latest The Good Place ep.
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Jan 11, 2019 18:31
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McSpanky posted:For someone with that avatar you seem to weirdly hate Star Trek I'm sorry, are you not a Star Trek fan? We have such sights to show you.
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Jan 12, 2019 08:54
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Cythereal posted:It's the same way I get bugged about just about everyone who's used the Kobayashi Maru to show how badass a character is. In Wrath, the Maru isn't about how badass Kirk is. The Kobayashi Maru, the no-win scenario, is a recurring metaphor for death, and it's one part of a theme throughout the movie about how Kirk has always managed to cheat death. He's managed to win where he shouldn't have been able to win, but he can't keep doing it forever. Death will catch up to him, and in that movie it's the death of his closest friend. It's one beat in a whole movie about coming to grips with death and aging. And indeed, from Starfleet's perspective, the idea is valid: to know how a cadet will act when they know for a fact that they will not survive. It also plays into Kirk being childish enough to think he's too cool for rules. Doesn't matter if its the spacedock speed limit, the rule to raise shields when the Reliant stomps up to you in radio silence, or even the rule that everyone dies. Kirk didn't cheat on the test, he cheated himself out of learning some humility. On a less pretentious note, I like how Starfleet has made successor tests by TNG time. Voyager had Chakotay give a test to some dickheads that presumably thought they were in a new version of the Kobayashi Maru and went down fighting before Chakotay asked why they didn't just retreat and they had to come up with an answer. Even better is that Starfleet seemingly thought Kirk should have done something in Wrath beyond sit on his hands and wait for Spock to take action and now make command applicants take a test that boils down to "Something is wrong with the ship and only your best friend can survive the radiation long enough to enact repairs. Are you a bad enough dude to order your friend to die?"
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Jan 13, 2019 00:34
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The books get pretty dumb with that scenario too, though with some fun twists, like Nog bribing the Klingons.
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Jan 13, 2019 10:25
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Ghost Leviathan posted:The books get pretty dumb with that scenario too, though with some fun twists, like Nog bribing the Klingons. This is exactly the sort of poo poo I want to see in Star Trek: different ways to solve problems because every character brings something unique to the table, based on their background.
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Jan 13, 2019 10:58
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I think someone at Starfleed HR just likes brutalising recruits. Why else would there be the 'face your deepest most primal fear' thing immediately following the entrance exam? "'Crusher, Wesley' seems to have unresolved daddy-abandonment trauma. Ensign, get underneath that pile of rubble and, when I give the signal, start screaming. I owe you a latte if I'm the one he rescues."
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Jan 13, 2019 11:49
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so I could say that I finally figured out what this god damned cube is doing. Get well Lowtax.
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I'm catching up with the final seasons of Voyager as I missed them first time around. Except the holodeck-only episodes. gently caress if I'm watching those.
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Jan 13, 2019 12:04
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Pablo Bluth posted:I'm catching up with the final seasons of Voyager as I missed them first time around. Except the holodeck-only episodes. gently caress if I'm watching those.
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Jan 13, 2019 17:13
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In First Contact, they go back in time to prevent the borg from messing with the timeline. Does this movie create another timeline? Why does nobody go back in time (besides Spock) in 2009 Star Trek?
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Jan 13, 2019 18:24
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Spacebump posted:In First Contact, they go back in time to prevent the borg from messing with the timeline. Does this movie create another timeline?
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Jan 13, 2019 18:28
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Spacebump posted:In First Contact, they go back in time to prevent the borg from messing with the timeline. Does this movie create another timeline? tachyons e: either not enough or too many
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Jan 13, 2019 18:34
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I remember when tachyons showed up on Babylon 5 and I was like Oh it's time travel time Thanks for teaching me, star trek
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Jan 13, 2019 19:11
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRXry95Q6e0
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Jan 13, 2019 19:37
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Pablo Bluth posted:I'm catching up with the final seasons of Voyager as I missed them first time around. Except the holodeck-only episodes. gently caress if I'm watching those. Does this include the ones where Klingons are running Nazis through with Bat'leths?
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Jan 13, 2019 19:51
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spincube posted:I think someone at Starfleed HR just likes brutalising recruits. Why else would there be the 'face your deepest most primal fear' thing immediately following the entrance exam? Worf's was probably almost the same scenario but about his parents being killed. What if that's why the room wasn't a hologram? They say it's your darkest fear, but it's always someone being killed in the exploding steam room.
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Jan 13, 2019 20:04
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I imagine that First Contact had always played out that way, the events inspiring this selfish, hopeless drunk to be a better man and embrace this wonderous event he initiated. Perhaps that's the difference between prime and mirror universes. Mirror Zephram, not inspired by the future in which he is a fulcrum which pivots humanity towards a better existence, sees an opportunity to grab more and more, letting his flaws dominate, spiralling humanity down a terrible, destructive path.
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Jan 13, 2019 20:08
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Nah, the mirror universe is obviously the one where Trump was elected President. 
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Jan 13, 2019 20:30
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simplefish posted:Does this include the ones where Klingons are running Nazis through with Bat'leths? in hindsight that scene is loving cool
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Jan 13, 2019 20:35
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Spacebump posted:In First Contact, they go back in time to prevent the borg from messing with the timeline. Does this movie create another timeline? Blade_of_tyshalle posted:I imagine that First Contact had always played out that way, the events inspiring this selfish, hopeless drunk to be a better man and embrace this wonderous event he initiated. I guess there would be a new timeline with a few differences from the old. One would be as Blade_of_tysalle says, that some other event/conversation inspired Cochrane to get his poo poo together and make the flight and meet the Vulcanians. Second is that in the original timeline there wasn't a crashed Borg ship in the ice that Archer messed around with. That remained secret, so there was no appreciable change from either event to what we saw in TOS and TNG. Picard might have gone back to the future and found some secret record of Archer's meeting with the Borg that wouldn't jive with the Enterprise's computer records, but that's about it. Spock in JJ Trek is now living in a timeline with a major anomaly--if his/Nero's arrival changed the future, would Picard have still gone back? The only way to know would be for Spock to travel back in the JJ Timeline to First Contact and see if Picard is there, or see if there's some secret record of Archer meeting the Borg. But all that would presuppose Ambassador Spock had any reason to know the particulars of Picard's trip to the past and/or the events Archer experienced. And of course, that anyone in current Starfleet would have reason to give Spock access to time travel or the classified records of the NX-O1. Personally I don't think the Enterprise E would be in the 2060s in the new timeline Spock is living in. But again, as the end results to the timeline were basically apocryphal changes, he wouldn't notice.
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Jan 13, 2019 20:37
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