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Dead Reckoning posted:The position that someone who identifies as a gender that doesn't match their biological sex can be considered normal and healthy has only recently started to gain mainstream traction here, on earth, and you're trying to apply it to impossibly ancient, immortal, sexless warrior-monks made of atomic fire. If I'm reading you correctly, you're saying that we shouldn't expect the angel characters in comic to behave in a way that completely deviates from their established society and social mores, such that even Petal Knights are influenced by the society they're deliberately pushing against? And that it'd be boring if everyone in-comic was totally in line with early 21st century progressive western social mores?
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Jan 11, 2019 02:23
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Poltergrift posted:They rip off their wings. Seems like that would hinder them a little -- in the void, at least. White Chain did a speech where she ripped her whole dang face off halfway through and then just kept talking through the head hole, Juggernaut Star is the most fearsome terrorist in the multiverse and also a tire, I don't think angel anatomy really does anything
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Jan 11, 2019 02:25
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I suspect the whole 'perpetual iron maiden' aspect could have some psychological effects but it's also true that even in the void angel's true forms are like, always referred to as non-solid except when they're void pupating, right? Like it's gas to liquid to plasma or something. Despite their supposed rigidity there's a lot of aspects of them that are fluid. And White Chain didn't seem to be in any physical pain when she ripped off her face, she was just expressing psychological pain. So like, you could just as easily say it's just that psychologically troubled angels are more likely to turn themselves into rad motorcycles and puppet around a humanoid armor shell as a joke.
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Jan 11, 2019 02:33
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1 White Chain Pulled Back from the Void to Serve Her King Which is along the same line of thought where I think Allison is going to Rip Off Cio's mask at some point.
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Jan 11, 2019 02:55
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thats her face u monster
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Jan 11, 2019 02:59
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More worryingly, devil masks are kinda like their brains. It's a seat of information and identity. I don't think ripping that off of Cio's body would be a particularly liberating experience for anyone involved, considering how traumatic it was for Princess Jack Moonshine to have her sense of identity roughly and impossibly yanked back from the hot black flame. I mean she's been having a pretty good time murder supplexing priests into piles of gold but it wasn't a great time for her right after she was incarnated again.
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Jan 11, 2019 03:07
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Yeah, Cio is her mask. She is an identity her mask imposes on formless hunger.
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Jan 11, 2019 03:25
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wiegieman posted:Yeah, Cio is her mask. She is an identity her mask imposes on formless hunger. Which is why Allison bringing Vladok back was so impossible, but, well, Royalty.
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Jan 11, 2019 03:34
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But like everything else we've been told, that may not be true. Allison's whole deal is shaking up the world of throne as they know it. Humans masked and named devils to "subdue" them from the formless chaos. For the brief period Princess Jack Moonshine was unbound he still had a physical form and a will. So Cio, continuing to come to terms with who she really is, befriending Allison, learning love, changing names. Who's to say she needs to be bound by a mask. What happens when the formless black chaos fire itself has memories and attachments to a material person who just so happens to be the new god? It sounds like a power up to me to see Cio in the equivalent form to a shell-less angel.
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Jan 11, 2019 03:48
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M_Gargantua posted:But like everything else we've been told, that may not be true. Allison's whole deal is shaking up the world of throne as they know it.
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Jan 11, 2019 03:55
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Like I’ve been theorising in my head for a while that Allison is going to cut white chain from her nature somehow and give her a fleshy body in the material world. Both white chain and cio are very significant because they’re two sides of the underpinning of the entire universe and something crazy is going to happen to transform both.
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Jan 11, 2019 04:00
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I am pretty sure Thorn Knights in the void are also spiky and horrible, and they seem to lack heads. I'm pretty sure being blasted by the voice of Metatron more or less totally destroys the ego of the Thorn Knights; it almost did to White Chain. I'm also pretty sure whatever's up with Metatron's living corpse-body in the void is not, uh, the pinnacle of health or sanity. And he's the being they all follow obsessively in the Thorns, so I think in many ways they are transparently less healthy than Petal Knights, who are mutating spree killers. So I'm gonna go ahead and consider White Chain a much more emotionally healthy person than either the theofascist autolobotomizers or the Petal Knights. E: I'm pretty sure it's much more interestingly crazy for the angel and the devil to come to new ways of being through deciding that conventional wisdom about essential natures is bullshit, and possibly developing cool powers as a result, than for Allison to magic-punch them into new physical forms.
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Jan 11, 2019 04:00
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himself is already unbound i think
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Jan 11, 2019 05:30
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Are Petal Knights all spree killers? I thought they were just hedonists.
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Jan 11, 2019 06:29
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PetraCore posted:Are Petal Knights all spree killers? I thought they were just hedonists. Yeah I wouldn't call them "mutating spree killers" at all. They're hedonists with bodies that are crafted to be more organic-like, who apparently tend to be mercenaries (and therefore guild enforcers). Since that's a pretty reliable line of work for a rogue angel. They're no more spree killers than any other powerful mercenary, and we have no evidence they are "mutating". We don't really know how their bodies are made and what differentiates them from other angels' bodies - I would speculate they're made from bone and flesh instead of stone.
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Jan 11, 2019 07:04
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I was being flippant, but I'm pretty sure their bodies are the result of internal pressure slowly changing them, since there's no evidence that new ash armors are being forged that have those organic designs, and angels' actions can change how their armors are shaped (mostly cracking them). As for spree killers, also flippant, but in the K6BD RPG they are iirc basically described as hired killers and hedonists who are constantly on the run from other angels, and are the Angel equivalent of the bounty hunter class which is absolutely about being a murderer for money, at least.
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Jan 11, 2019 08:35
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PetraCore posted:I mean, yeah, because context includes the context in which a work is fiction is being written and who it's being written for. Joe Slowboat posted:E: I'm pretty sure it's much more interestingly crazy for the angel and the devil to come to new ways of being through deciding that conventional wisdom about essential natures is bullshit, and possibly developing cool powers as a result, than for Allison to magic-punch them into new physical forms. Tollymain posted:himself is already unbound i think
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Jan 11, 2019 08:51
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Dead Reckoning posted:My point is, saying that Angel society has "unhealthy gender dynamics" is a hilariously stupid value judgement. Except not, because it's demonstrably unhealthy. Article 1: White Chain.
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Jan 11, 2019 08:59
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Humans are made of the warm black flame; by the same logic that all Angels are masculine, all humans should be 'kinda feminine' if not moreso.
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Jan 11, 2019 08:59
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it wasnt ys's flame that became the angels
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Jan 11, 2019 09:01
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idk based on http://killsixbilliondemons.tumblr.com/post/181897814415/so-koss-used-the-cold-white-flame-to-craft-the it sounds like the idea is that the flames are literally sourced from yis and un
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Jan 11, 2019 10:00
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Tollymain posted:himself is already unbound i think based on absolutely nothing other than an unhealthy fetish for morrowind, i'd say himself was subject to the full dissolution of his identity in the presence of the totality of the hot black flame, and decided to maintain an identity anyway
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Jan 11, 2019 10:50
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So, more like CHIMSELF then.
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Jan 11, 2019 12:35
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Dead Reckoning posted:My point is, saying that Angel society has "unhealthy gender dynamics" is a hilariously stupid value judgement. Like, I get that White Chain is a stand-in for trans people, but it's a lot harder to look down on the Concordance Angels for believing in essentialism in a setting where they were literally hammered out of the Cold White Flame of Yis by one of the gods and created fully sentient with knowledge of the Old Law. The concordance failed. The gods died. Most angels have found their own path. The few that are left don't care about the law they were meant to uphold. Clearly the essentiallism of angels is dead wrong. Rotten Red Rod fucked around with this message at 14:37 on Jan 11, 2019 |
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Jan 11, 2019 14:30
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I wouldn't be surprised if the Key of Kings is like the Mark of Torment from Planescape:Torment where it draws weirdos towards you.
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Jan 11, 2019 14:51
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SardonicTyrant posted:I wouldn't be surprised if the Key of Kings is like the Mark of Torment from Planescape:Torment where it draws weirdos towards you. Would explain how the 108 keep finding her.
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Jan 11, 2019 15:11
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Guys there is no point arguing with Dead Reckoning. He literally does not understand what subtext or stories are, only plain text and world building.
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Jan 11, 2019 15:24
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Captain Oblivious posted:Guys there is no point arguing with Dead Reckoning. He literally does not understand what subtext or stories are, only plain text and world building. Yeah I saw some of his other posts. I'm honestly just curious to see him respond, it's kind of fascinating to see someone argue for the status quo in a comic focused on characters that are actively fighting it.
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Jan 11, 2019 15:48
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Rotten Red Rod posted:Yeah I saw some of his other posts. I'm honestly just curious to see him respond, it's kind of fascinating to see someone argue for the status quo in a comic focused on characters that are actively fighting it. Dead Reckoning understands what we don't: that Abaddon is obviously telling a story about how a society's transphobia is totally justified and correct. Surely White Chain will realize this at the conclusion of her arc.
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Jan 11, 2019 15:53
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Also White Chain lies all the time. She just lies to herself when she does so.
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Jan 11, 2019 16:40
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Also all of this ignores the fact of the Petal Knights, which, according to Abbadon himself, are, quote, "The coolest and the raddest. They actually sort of have their poo poo together unlike all the other angels." So there you go, the angels most "deviant" from their supposed inherent nature are the most together, straight from the author.
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Jan 11, 2019 17:21
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Dead Reckoning posted:Except their essential natures are demonstrably not bullshit: Cio will eventually deliquesce back into the Black Flame if she doesn't find a way to cool her essence, What are you talking about here? Where was this in the comic? Demiurge4 posted:Like I’ve been theorising in my head for a while that Allison is going to cut white chain from her nature somehow and give her a fleshy body in the material world. Both white chain and cio are very significant because they’re two sides of the underpinning of the entire universe and something crazy is going to happen to transform both. I guess something like that could happen since Allison has all the power in this story, but I feel like a literal physical change would be an unsatisfying way to answer the questions these characters have about who they are.
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Jan 11, 2019 19:11
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Rotten Red Rod posted:Also all of this ignores the fact of the Petal Knights, which, according to Abbadon himself, are, quote, "The coolest and the raddest. They actually sort of have their poo poo together unlike all the other angels." Makes sense. Thorns and Roots are both turbo-dogmatic, even when everything that dogma was meant to accomplish has clearly fallen apart. A lot of petals aren't great at making their own moral compass, but at least they're doing their own thinking.
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Jan 11, 2019 19:37
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voting third party posted:What are you talking about here? Where was this in the comic? No idea what Dead Reckoning is talking about. It's pretty clear from the comic that devils' personalities are explicitly tied to their mask, seeing as Cio's husband was able to bring her back by putting her mask back together. And Abaddon has literally explicitly said as such in this thread.
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Jan 11, 2019 19:52
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Rotten Red Rod posted:No idea what Dead Reckoning is talking about. It's pretty clear from the comic that devils' personalities are explicitly tied to their mask, seeing as Cio's husband was able to bring her back by putting her mask back together. And Abaddon has literally explicitly said as such in this thread. The details sound off but the masks (and devils) degrade over time if not sustained by human souls, whether through parasitism or predation. We've seen some in the process of decaying, they don't just gently caress people over for fun.
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Jan 11, 2019 20:08
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:The details sound off but the masks (and devils) degrade over time if not sustained by human souls, whether through parasitism or predation. We've seen some in the process of decaying, they don't just gently caress people over for fun. well, not *just* for fun
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Jan 11, 2019 20:11
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The only thing that confuses me about that is that during the episode with Vladok, Alison swipes a mask to bind him again. The mask she grabs was part of some transaction between a devil with a cracked mask and the people who presumably made it - when she takes it, he protests 'that's my mask!', and it clearly looks like it's designed to replicate the cracked one he's wearing. So what was going on there? If he was buying a new mask, wouldn't that be basically be buying a new identity? Or can we assume it has somehow been crafted to imitate the current one and preserve some matter of identity? But then wouldn't have binding it to Vladok's unbound form basically shape them into a copy of that other devil? Only that hasn't happened, because now Princess has evolved into a Red, she clearly has a different shape and style of mask than the Red whose mask she was bound with. Basically all of this seems pretty confusing, not lease because we have Alison involved and I guess she can break any rules she doesn't know about anyway.
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Jan 11, 2019 20:13
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Devils can't just just take a trip to the pottery vendor and have some clay special ordered for a mask. The Hot Black Flame constantly erodes their identity as it seeks to return to formless chaos, and they need the Flame from servants or humans to cool it. The only way for then to get that is through contracts or cannibalism, but indulging in vice will slow it down.
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Jan 11, 2019 20:19
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Ashcans posted:The only thing that confuses me about that is that during the episode with Vladok, Alison swipes a mask to bind him again. The mask she grabs was part of some transaction between a devil with a cracked mask and the people who presumably made it - when she takes it, he protests 'that's my mask!', and it clearly looks like it's designed to replicate the cracked one he's wearing. So what was going on there? If he was buying a new mask, wouldn't that be basically be buying a new identity? Or can we assume it has somehow been crafted to imitate the current one and preserve some matter of identity? But then wouldn't have binding it to Vladok's unbound form basically shape them into a copy of that other devil? Only that hasn't happened, because now Princess has evolved into a Red, she clearly has a different shape and style of mask than the Red whose mask she was bound with. All of the 'rules' shift regularly to accomodate dramatic necessity, see also White Chain taking off her helmet at her trial in Throne without just immediately exploding. A big part of why I assume the angel and devil natures are actually substantive and somewhat immutable is that Cio and White Chain's stories are so much less interesting if all that separates them from what they want to be is some pointless affectations they barely care about to begin with. If you really need a fantasy-physics answer, the devils are firmly in the camp of 'eh, close enough' when it comes to identity. If a red devil would consider its blue predecessor and hopeful eventual green replacement the same being, replacing one's mask with one that looks and functions about the same is way less of a leap. A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Jan 11, 2019 |
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Jan 11, 2019 20:22
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That has nothing to do with their essential nature though. Yes they feed on souls, often through pacts. That doesn't always dictate anything about them. They can choose to not be evil, like Cio. It's just really hard.
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Jan 11, 2019 20:27
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