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reignonyourparade posted:Hm, yes, except, they exist, and that doesn't happen. In fact, co-ops are actually better at not going out of business actively because of the ways they DON'T act to screw themselves the way managers would screw them. lol, they are absolutely forced to cut wages, lay off staff, and do other Capitalist Things despite being a worker co-op. they still have to operate under capitalism! hope this helps https://louisproyect.org/2009/12/06/the-myth-of-mondragon/ quote:Not surprisingly, Mondragon has adapted to a “leaner and meaner” corporate culture that became the norm internationally under what has become known as neo-liberalism. In 1993, the Guardian reported that Mondragon, the “darling of Western universities’ sociology departments in the 1970s, has been radically restructured in preparation for the European Single Market.” big business man fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Jan 11, 2019 |
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Jan 11, 2019 16:34
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readadolphreedjr.org
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Jan 11, 2019 16:36
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Postoyevsky posted:lol, they are absolutely forced to cut wages, lay off staff, and do other Capitalist Things despite being a worker co-op. they still have to operate under capitalism! so is this an argument against co-ops or against co-ops existing in capitalism?
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Jan 11, 2019 17:41
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Karl Barks posted:so is this an argument against co-ops or against co-ops existing in capitalism? neither? I'm a union organizer, I'm very well aware of the limits of bandaid approaches towards capitalism. i'd always prefer and would tell others to work in a unionized or co-op workplace if possible, but they both have their limitations and neither are revolutionary in a vacuum Richard "Mr Coop" Wolff posted:If I proposed worker coops as "alone and right now" the way to go, I would be badly mistaken. But I dont. My whole point is to ADD to the previous socialisms' overfocus on the macro a balancing focus on the micro precisely so that the 21st century socialism has better success than the 20th century's. A worker coop is also a place/space where struggles over all sorts of questions will be engaged. A commitment to avoid exploitation will be struggled over. The notion that ANY social institution will always and automatically make everything right is not credible. Worker coops are a better, more democratic way to organize production, a better context for social struggles forward to a better society. They do not solve all problems. Of course Mondragon - as a coop working in a world comprised mostly of capitalist enterprise organizations - makes compromises that engage struggles within Mondragon....as has been going on. Chomsky is not the first to notice this although it wold be better to also acknowledge why this has happened and what is happening to struggle over it.
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Jan 11, 2019 17:48
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R. Guyovich posted:readadolphreedjr.org and to think they retired the <blink> and <marquee> tags in HTML 
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Jan 11, 2019 17:57
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Postoyevsky posted:neither? I'm a union organizer, I'm very well aware of the limits of bandaid approaches towards capitalism. i'd always prefer and would tell others to work in a unionized or co-op workplace if possible, but they both have their limitations and neither are revolutionary in a vacuum was someone saying we just need coops alone? I don't think anyone did.
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Jan 11, 2019 17:58
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drat this thread got salty over night. anyway I'm gonna be honest and say that I have no concept of what reparations or decolonization would mean because I dont feel superior. I guess white privilege exists but I live in an area with racists who've had their brains broken by the last 20 years of rhetoric that they're on the nazi 'only TRUE whites are American ' level so these people think I'm a subhuman Mexican piece of poo poo despite literally everyone else in the world thinking I'm definitely a generic white person. Anyway smash the state and if anyone tells me to read a book, go gently caress yourself
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Jan 11, 2019 17:59
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read a book
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Jan 11, 2019 18:00
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Karl Barks posted:was someone saying we just need coops alone? I don't think anyone did. no, but the OP I was quoting said quote:In fact, co-ops are actually better at not going out of business actively because of the ways they DON'T act to screw themselves the way managers would screw them. which is fundamentally untrue. coops are cool and better than the status quo, but they don't get to escape the same predicaments that any other company would have to reconcile under capitalism
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Jan 11, 2019 18:02
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dont read books
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Jan 11, 2019 18:04
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like most things in life, moderation is key
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Jan 11, 2019 18:06
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speaking of harry potter, how were there poor/rich wizards?
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Jan 11, 2019 18:07
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jarofpiss posted:speaking of harry potter, how were there poor/rich wizards? the
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Jan 11, 2019 18:10
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the rich and poor are created by the most powerful magick of all, the Invisible Hand
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Jan 11, 2019 18:11
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would it better to call a website a living book, broadsheet, or pulpy soup
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Jan 11, 2019 18:26
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Victory Position posted:would it better to call a website a living book, broadsheet, or pulpy soup doesn't count unless you had to bother a librarian about accessing it
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Jan 11, 2019 18:31
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Victory Position posted:would it better to call a website a living book, broadsheet, or pulpy soup A miserable pile of secrets!
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Jan 11, 2019 18:45
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Plutonis posted:We need a Sam Hyde of the left I fantasize about how awesome it'd be if Alex Jones was a communist https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXErwVHCMJc&t=38s I mean there really isn't any super prominent figure on the left that can boil poo poo down to basics for the masses. Jimmy Dore is boring as gently caress and still says liberal poo poo, Chapo and the 70,000 other leftist podcasts are an hour and a half of white Brooklyn hipsters rambling, etc. Someone should take the mantle of "communist talk radio host" even if he or she isn't literally going to be on talk radio. Graphic fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Jan 11, 2019 |
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Jan 11, 2019 19:09
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GalacticAcid posted:read a book https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JOwyHghsag
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Jan 11, 2019 19:23
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GalacticAcid posted:read a book https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haxk7l1pBTM
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Jan 11, 2019 19:32
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Graphic posted:I fantasize about how awesome it'd be if Alex Jones was a communist Be the change you wish to see in the world
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Jan 11, 2019 19:35
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Dreddout posted:Be the change you wish to see in the world I get Larry David voice after 10 AM, no chance
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Jan 11, 2019 19:38
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Larry Parrish posted:drat this thread got salty over night. anyway I'm gonna be honest and say that I have no concept of what reparations or decolonization would mean because I dont feel superior. I guess white privilege exists but I live in an area with racists who've had their brains broken by the last 20 years of rhetoric that they're on the nazi 'only TRUE whites are American ' level so these people think I'm a subhuman Mexican piece of poo poo despite literally everyone else in the world thinking I'm definitely a generic white person. Anyway smash the state and if anyone tells me to read a book, go gently caress yourself "Decolonization" means dismantling the colonial relationship between the "wretched" of America and the corporate-state, where redundant populations are ghettoized and alienated from their own governments, and people who live in areas that mainly serve primary extraction industries are similarly disenfranchised to ensure the outflow of value from their regions to the control of corporate interests and their investors. These places are internal "colonies" of the settler-state, where the economy is structured from top to bottom to maximize the exploitation of dispossessed and low skill workers. They exist only to be exhausted of resources & labor, and then discarded. The sovereign cohesion of the 50 states is largely a political fiction. If you were to be more specific you could draw on the map lines that delineate from the rest of the country: native reservations, segregated neighborhoods, emergency management zones, agricultural land controlled by corporations, trusts, & cattle barons, and regions dominated by resource extraction companies. So decolonization in the American context, is a process of restoring the autonomous rule of the people through democratic organs, with the eventual aim of dismantling the settler-state itself and establishing a post-colonial socialist state.
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Jan 11, 2019 19:39
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forgive me but that sounds a lot like 'destroying the constitution and creating a worker's republic'. which except for the socdem hangers-on is pretty much what all of us want
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Jan 11, 2019 19:52
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Graphic posted:I fantasize about how awesome it'd be if Alex Jones was a communist richard wolff maybe
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Jan 11, 2019 19:54
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:yeah he's alright.
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Jan 11, 2019 21:43
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Ignoring racial issues in your rhetoric is a direct ticket to propegating existing racial issues. Margenalized peoples need to know you're on their side more than petite bourgeoisie white people do. Listen to them, a lot, and weigh it in your own messaging.
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Jan 11, 2019 21:45
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Rated PG-34 posted:I like Richard Wolff for a lot of a his work, but I’ve heard him say that redistribution (and in effect reparations) is a dead end in politics bc it makes one party of the exchange upset, and instead people should focus on ‘democratizing the economy’ and workplace co-ops. turning privately owned businesses into worker cooperatives is redistribution. unless you have to pay the previous owners, in which case gently caress that Pener Kropoopkin posted:Yeah I wonder how he thinks capitalists are going to feel about having their businesses become worker owned. efb lol
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Jan 11, 2019 21:46
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Graphic posted:I fantasize about how awesome it'd be if Alex Jones was a communist an actual breitbart of the left, that was happy to be disingenuous and stir up hatred, would own. like a "rich peoples crimes" section that just lists out terrible crimes committed by rich people.
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Jan 11, 2019 21:49
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Graphic posted:I get Larry David voice after 10 AM, no chance what that's perfect
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Jan 11, 2019 21:50
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:The sovereign cohesion of the 50 states is largely a political fiction. If you were to be more specific you could draw on the map lines that delineate from the rest of the country: native reservations, segregated neighborhoods, emergency management zones, agricultural land controlled by corporations, trusts, & cattle barons, and regions dominated by resource extraction companies. From what I understand of it, the study of "foodways" exists to throw out the baby with the bathwater and be left with the element of awe in the place of systemic outflows as described above. It's filed under anthropology or forklore studies and, wouldn't you know it, was coined by the University of Chicago
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Jan 11, 2019 21:50
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Graphic posted:I get Larry David voice after 10 AM, no chance bernie???
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Jan 11, 2019 21:51
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:an actual breitbart of the left, that was happy to be disingenuous and stir up hatred, would own. like a "rich peoples crimes" section that just lists out terrible crimes committed by rich people. an exhaustive list of DNC donors? basically, a who's who of who's constantly on the phone complaining about the devil's deeds such as "universal healthcare" and "living wages" ?
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Jan 11, 2019 21:51
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Victory Position posted:an exhaustive list of DNC donors? basically, a who's who of who's constantly on the phone complaining about the devil's deeds such as "universal healthcare" and "living wages" ? well that and literal crimes, like alice walton that keeps on running over and murdering people while drunk and getting away with it. make people hate the rich just like the far right has successfully stirred up race hatred, except it'd be easier because the rich are actually loving you over. basically go full fake news disingenuous poo poo. the right has done it perfectly.
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Jan 11, 2019 21:54
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Victory Position posted:From what I understand of it, the study of "foodways" exists to throw out the baby with the bathwater and be left with the element of awe in the place of systemic outflows as described above. So you mean it's just sequestered as a cultural study so nobody asks questions like, why the biggest private ranch in Texas is bigger than the entire state of Rhode Island?
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Jan 11, 2019 21:59
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:well that and literal crimes, like alice walton that keeps on running over and murdering people while drunk and getting away with it. make people hate the rich just like the far right has successfully stirred up race hatred, except it'd be easier because the rich are actually loving you over. Fake news works on poor people because they can't afford lawyers.
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Jan 11, 2019 22:01
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:well that and literal crimes, like alice walton that keeps on running over and murdering people while drunk and getting away with it. make people hate the rich just like the far right has successfully stirred up race hatred, except it'd be easier because the rich are actually loving you over. Sounds interesting though I wonder how to best protect against lawsuit and other ways a pissed off rich person would try to gently caress with it. I mean, on the one hand, 'lol' that a rich person would spend hundreds of thousands of dollars suing the C-SPAM Daily, but on the other hand I'm not well versed in tactics for avoiding real consequences/the fake news being shut down. I think the right gets away with it most of the time because they're punching down.
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Jan 11, 2019 22:01
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:So you mean it's just sequestered as a cultural study so nobody asks questions like, why the biggest private ranch in Texas is bigger than the entire state of Rhode Island? More or less! More cutesy twee folksy rather than grim crushing folk. More tastes of the nation than Steinbeck. Victory Position fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Jan 11, 2019 |
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Jan 11, 2019 22:02
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Fake news works on poor people because they can't afford lawyers. See: Peter Theil or whoever bankrolling Hulk Hogan's lawsuit against Gawker.
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Jan 11, 2019 22:13
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it doesn't have to be fake news, the real news about rich people is gross enough. i just think the left has forgotten the propaganda value of a single figure speaking directly to the listener/viewer/reader concisely. this is also something the right has done perfectly already. like 90% of right wing media is the talk radio host/fox news pundit format literally telling listeners what to think and it's brainwashed 100 million people. of course there's also tons of money behind it and bolshevik bill o'reilly isn't going to reach the same audience, but a lot of it is the method. these podcasts, twitter accounts, left wing news websites are almost entirely leftists jerking eachother off and doesn't affect recruitment at all.
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Jan 11, 2019 22:26
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