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Doltos posted:As a QB who knows. We've all see the shows he's been putting on and we also saw what happened in the bowl game when he faces non Big 12 defenses. He threw for 300 yards and had another 100 rushing against the 2nd best defense in college?
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Jan 15, 2019 00:46
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Doltos posted:Judging from his college stats it looks like he has the potential to make it as a speed/power guy who might hit for average (that's very valuable). Problem is it's really hard to predict college to minor leagues to major leagues. Usually guys who have a higher chance of making it in the MLB hit consistently for a while before getting called up. Kyler has two years of college baseball. One was dreadful, one was pretty good. Kyler Murray really wasn't the problem when he played Bama
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Jan 15, 2019 00:46
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Gatts posted:If he excels at Baseball and is A-Rod level, he gets a 20 year career at like 25 mill per year. At the low end, it's a couple million bucks...but you get a chance at 20 year career. There are half a dozen high profile QBs playing as recently as the last few years that have had 15-20 year careers, and a dozen more journeymen that are close to that. A veteran backup on a good team makes millions for literally five plays a year.
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Jan 15, 2019 01:13
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Doltos posted:Judging from his college stats it looks like he has the potential to make it as a speed/power guy who might hit for average (that's very valuable). Problem is it's really hard to predict college to minor leagues to major leagues. Usually guys who have a higher chance of making it in the MLB hit consistently for a while before getting called up. Kyler has two years of college baseball. One was dreadful, one was pretty good. Yeah he played exceptionally well outside of like 2 drives
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Jan 15, 2019 01:22
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Doltos posted:The money for leaving early and getting drafted late is awful compared to staying an extra year and getting drafted earlier. Differences of 400k between third and 7th round. Makes no sense to declare early if there's more competition to get drafted. Well yeah what really matters is whether and when you have hit your peak and what the competition is like. For quarterbacks it's a great year to declare for the draft because a third round guy some years will be a first round guy this year. Every college game has to be played with the understanding that it will either raise (great performance), lower (bad performance) or nearly destroy (serious injuries) your ability to make money in the pros. Every college game that you could've been in the NFL for is also a game you put your body at risk for free when you could be getting paid. It's a complex formula, but for younger players who just had a dominant year it's better to declare before that value drops for any reason. Whatever the right choice is for each individual player, they should be able to leave college sports and declare for the draft whenever they please Gatts posted:If he excels at Baseball and is A-Rod level, he gets a 20 year career at like 25 mill per year. At the low end, it's a couple million bucks...but you get a chance at 20 year career. I read some stuff online from sports finance experts that claim football will make him a lot more money in a much shorter time. I realize he's a dual threat guy but he's a pretty good passer so he could theoretically last quite a bit longer than 10 years in the NFL. Finally, football player salaries, especially quarterback salaries, are only going up. The average baseball player salary is 4.5 million per year. If Murray is a starting quarterback he could be making 30 million/year even if he's average by the time his contract rolls around. With the injury risk, football can be brutal but there's also only 16 to 20 games per year. To me that would be preferable to the endless grind of regular season baseball
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Jan 15, 2019 01:23
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With rules protecting QBs in the NFL and Murray being able to move around and evade pressure I wouldn't be too worried about him taking hits, plus you can easily add several pounds of muscle in an NFL weighroom. I would be more worried about only seeing 1 year in the college system that is designed to make QBs look good.,
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Jan 15, 2019 01:24
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KIM JONG TRILL posted:Yeah he played exceptionally well outside of like 2 drives I don't think he did. Bama's defense ate him up for the entire first half and then sat back in the second.
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Jan 15, 2019 01:26
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Doltos posted:I don't think he did. Bama's defense ate him up for the entire first half and then sat back in the second. Starting from their first possession of the 2nd quarter Oklahoma scored on every possession except when they ran out of time at the end of the first half. Nick Saban definitely didn’t decide to stop caring if Oklahoma scored with 45 minutes left in the game.
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Jan 15, 2019 01:48
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Is Good Josh Allen a better pure pass rushing prospect than Bosa?
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Jan 15, 2019 01:54
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YOLOsubmarine posted:Starting from their first possession of the 2nd quarter Oklahoma scored on every possession except when they ran out of time at the end of the first half. Unless I remember it incorrectly Murray turfed a ball to give them that first field goal then ran against a prevent defense twice to even get near FG range on the last drive before the half. Then they were down by like 18 or something like that deep into the fourth and Bama was literally playing prevent.
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Jan 15, 2019 01:56
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Doltos posted:Unless I remember it incorrectly Murray turfed a ball to give them that first field goal then ran against a prevent defense twice to even get near FG range on the last drive before the half. Then they were down by like 18 or something like that deep into the fourth and Bama was literally playing prevent. They scored a touchdown with their first possession of the second quarter. Then a field goal, then end of half. They drove to the Bama 9 at the start of the 2nd half but had to settle for a field goal. I don’t think Nick Saban has ever in his life willingly let the other team score.
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Jan 15, 2019 02:13
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YOLOsubmarine posted:They scored a touchdown with their first possession of the second quarter. Then a field goal, then end of half. I'm not saying he willingly let him score there was just a noticeable difference between the intensity of Bama's defense from the first and second half. I don't exactly give that much stock to college stats, much less ones produced from an air raid offense, and you can't honestly say that defenses run the same when they're up by 3 scores with 6 minutes left in the game.
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Jan 15, 2019 02:24
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The ou oline stopped getting massively owned that's what changed
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Jan 15, 2019 02:29
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Doltos posted:I'm not saying he willingly let him score there was just a noticeable difference between the intensity of Bama's defense from the first and second half. I don't exactly give that much stock to college stats, much less ones produced from an air raid offense, and you can't honestly say that defenses run the same when they're up by 3 scores with 6 minutes left in the game. This is a separate conversation from whether Kyler is actually a good NFL prospect, but he played well against Bama for most of the game. And yea, they’re gonna call a different defense when they’re up 18 with 6 minutes left but they let Oklahoma score a TD in less than two minutes which probably wasn’t how they drew it up, and that also only describes one of Oklahoma’s scoring drives. You can’t really hang that loss on “big 12 offense” when Oklahoma let Bama score a td on 66% of their meaningful possessions and Bama averaged like 4 minutes a drive.
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Jan 15, 2019 02:38
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Bama's defense was poo poo this year and still exposed Kyler they had two defensive backs that deserved a scholarship healthy that game, no linebackers, and one lineman
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Jan 15, 2019 02:51
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19-of-37, 308 yards, 2-0 TD-INT, 109 rush yards, Rush TD. "Exposed"
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Jan 15, 2019 02:53
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YOLOsubmarine posted:This is a separate conversation from whether Kyler is actually a good NFL prospect, but he played well against Bama for most of the game. I mean you are picking and choosing which drives you're praising him for. Also didn't hang the loss on the offense either, I just didn't think he played that well.
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Jan 15, 2019 03:18
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Kyler Murray is to short to be a QB and not nearly handsome enough.
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Jan 15, 2019 03:24
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Doltos posted:I mean you are picking and choosing which drives you're praising him for. Also didn't hang the loss on the offense either, I just didn't think he played that well. They scored on 6 of their 10 drives. I’m not picking and choosing I’m looking at the entire game instead of looking at the first quarter and deciding that’s the only one that mattered. Raku posted:Bama's defense was poo poo this year and still exposed Kyler lol
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Jan 15, 2019 03:24
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I think if you're kyler murray and you just assume you're going to be good then it's the nfl no question https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/arizona-cardinals/josh-rosen-25105/cash-earnings/ middle of the pack first round pick, 17.6MM over 4 years https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/arizona-diamondbacks/luke-weaver-17703/cash-earnings/ lower middle of the pack first round pick, 2.6MM over 4 years plus 2 more years of team control at close to minimum salary (so another 1-2MM) plus 3 years of arbitration which is a salary bump but is basically bullshit in terms of fair value and you are stuck with the team. murray got a 5MM bonus so you can crank that up to 5,831,829 which is still poo poo compared to the nfl. actually the 15MM request might have been spot on just from working back from that math from the nfl side plus the mlb's minimum salaries.
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Jan 15, 2019 03:28
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Raku posted:Bama's defense was poo poo this year and still exposed Kyler This is what these loving deranged bammers think. This team grey shirts 4 and 5 stars and then ships them off to Siberia when they aren't mega powered in their sophomore season and they only had two defensive backs, no linebackers, and one lineman. By allah you need to taste the bottom of my shoe
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Jan 15, 2019 03:50
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YOLOsubmarine posted:They scored on 6 of their 10 drives. I’m not picking and choosing I’m looking at the entire game instead of looking at the first quarter and deciding that’s the only one that mattered. They did nothing the first quarter. Two punts and a turnover on downs. Second quarter he gets a good drive for a TD. Second score of the 2nd quarter was him turfing a ball to end a drive and kick a field goal. Third drive of the 2nd quarter was an empty drive against prevent defense. He literally ran out the clock, there was no shot of a score there. 2nd half he drove down field, missed a pass and had one drop which led to a FG. By the time they got the ball back again there was 5 minutes left in the third and they were down 31-13. They're down 18 in an air raid offense against a depleted secondary. Do you really think that he should be praised for leading his team to some garbage time points? He had like a 51% completion percentage that game. Am I not allowed to point out that being arguably the worst game of his season, because it kinda was.
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Jan 15, 2019 03:50
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mcmagic posted:Is Good Josh Allen a better pure pass rushing prospect than Bosa?
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Jan 15, 2019 04:16
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Doltos posted:We've all see the shows he's been putting on and we also saw what happened in the bowl game when he faces non Big 12 defenses. QB has merely good game against Bama in the playoffs (seriously, outside of the accuracy barely above 50%, what part of "300 yards passing, 2 passing TDs, 100 yards rushing, Rush TD, no turnovers" it wasn't a bad game), better pump the brakes. 400 total yards and 3 TDs with no TOs being his "worst game of the season" against Bama doesn't exactly sounds like a bust in waiting. He's not Trevor Lawrence but nobody here is expecting him to be. 
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Jan 15, 2019 04:21
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Nor was I comparing him to Trevor Lawrence. I haven't exactly been trashing him either when I said he was a top 100 pick earlier in the thread. Being a top 100 amateur football player is kind of a big deal. I just didn't think he had that good of a game versus Bama in an offense designed to give QBs gaudy numbers. I mean if we want to talk college football stats I can pull up a bunch of QBs that had better passing numbers than Kyler and never sniffed NFL starting jobs.
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Jan 15, 2019 04:28
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a neat cape posted:It's a really good draft Ah, thought I heard it was pretty mediocre. Maybe it was from a fantasy perspective
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Jan 15, 2019 04:35
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Azhais posted:Ah, thought I heard it was pretty mediocre. Maybe it was from a fantasy perspective Fantasy perspective it should be pretty good. There's like 10 good WRs and 5 TEs in the first three rounds (never draft a rookie TE but Fant and Irv might be exceptions). I still think there's a bunch of athletic backs that will be bigger names once they hit the NFL too.
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Jan 15, 2019 04:47
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I repeat the offensive line stopped getting massively owned
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Jan 15, 2019 04:52
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Metapod posted:I repeat the offensive line stopped getting massively owned Most NFL teams have bad offensive lines too
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Jan 15, 2019 04:56
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I like Kyler, he’s electric, athletic, and has speed alone for a QB is disgusting. Height won’t play an issue here, nor will getting hit. He’s smart enough to figure stuff out. So with all that being said, Kyler: Go get that bag!
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Jan 15, 2019 09:20
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I mean I don’t think you can say height won’t play a factor. He’s generously 5’10”. He has the ability to make it work but it has to be a major concern with teams.
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Jan 15, 2019 12:19
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I believe he's actually 5'9". It will definitely be a significant departure from the norm. I personally think it can work, especially with his athleticism that defenses will have to respect. But there will be challenges like making throws from within the pocket, especially fast throws like slants for example. The guys in the middle of the defensive line could be up to an entire foot taller than him, so for those kind of throws he'll need a lane which sometimes can be hard to find. If he does succeed it could open the doors to more diminutive QBs getting a shot in the pros, which would be cool
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Jan 15, 2019 20:10
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Good offenses create lanes between offensive lineman for passing anyways and if you going deep you're launching over everyone anyways. It's a pretty big myth that QB height matters and it's been disproved over and over again.
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Jan 15, 2019 20:19
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Play posted:If he does succeed it could open the doors to more diminutive QBs getting a shot in the pros, which would be cool It's a shame Russell Wilson, Drew Brees, Fran Tarkenton, and Baker Mayfield washed out so horribly.
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Jan 15, 2019 20:29
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Kyler + 5 inches wouldn't escape top-10 in any draft in all seriousness--guy is just too toolsy. Here are some general thoughts on the current crop of QBs Dwayne Haskins - Ohio State Probably the best pure pocket guy in the year, would be 2nd guy off the board last year (better pocket guy than Darnold, smarter than Allen, less erratic than Rosen) and 1st the prior two. Absolute loving cannon of an arm, to the point where he can throw guys open on sideline outs at the last millisecond, which is going to make a stodgy NFL OC very very happy. Release is generally fast, though he can occasionally do the Mahomes thing where he deliberately changes the release point, which will drive some coaches nuts--even if he appears to have it worked out. His accuracy is elite in terms of ball placement, though he is occasionally vulnerable to a fastball when pressured on out-breaking routes--a better habit than most QBs tend to have coming out. He has good touch when he needs to on Mesh and back shoulder throws, and receivers seemed to rarely have issues catching his balls regardless of speed. His biggest weakness right now is weirdly enough his throws over the middle, particularly in the mid-range game, where he doesn't always do the best job of handling LBs/Safeties in robber coverage. He'll look off deep safeties all day, but he just doesn't have the same effect on intermediate zones, which can be infuriating. It's still astonishing to me that no one else ran Saban-style Cover 7/Cover 3 Rip-Liz combos like Purdue did to deal with him this year more often, given how helpless that made him at points in the pocket and how much better that would have handled the crossing routes that he destroyed teams with. His biggest weakness is that, for being a 70% passer, he still has really lazy footwork at points. I know Day and the program struggled to get him to take running and speedwork seriously, but it's even more concerning that he just coasts on arm talent for a lot of throws and will just wing it off of his back foot. Fortunately, his arm is big enough for it to work out, but it's going to drive some NFL guys who want to operate from under center crazy. The best thing an OC can do is stick him in the shotgun just to avoid his feet throwing off the rhythm of an offense, but he appears to have that weird ability Mahomes had in terms of just chucking the ball and it working out regardless of release point or spacing. In the right scheme (hopefully something vertical or spaced-out), he's a nightmare. People will want to compare him to Roethlisberger or other downfield guys who do well in the vert game, which is fair, but I think he looks a lot like a more physically talented Goff at this point. Early 1st Kyler Murray - Oklahoma This year's "tiny quarterback, big game" candidate and one of the more interesting prospects in a while. Has a fantastic arm, particularly for his size with a quick release and great velocity. It's not the deep howitzer of a Mahomes or Allen, but he's going to be just fine from a speed standpoint. Generally like his release, though he can get a little wrist-y, which will sail balls at times. He's a pretty accurate passer generally, but his O-line kept him incredibly clean this year and gave him time for throwing lanes to get very very large and easy to hit. I think he has the best touch in the class, though he's more liable to give up some picks on slow balls than other QBs. Fast as the dickens and might run in the 4.4s-4.5s, which shows in his lateral movement, though you really don't want him running much at the next level. Biggest issue is size, which is going to be mainly a scheme concern. In the age of the shotgun and pistol and spread NFL teams, someone will take a shot on him since the distance improves visbility and helps minimize some hits, but he would be an absolute disaster in an offense that won't let him move as much and doesn't put him in space to see blitzes coming and change his launch point or get the ball out. Everyone will want to compare him to Mayfield because of the school and stats, but Mayfield's offense was way more about passing progressions and proper timing, whereas Kyler's line and him could keep things alive for 6-7 seconds until one of his guys or a scrambling lane broke open. Someone did the lazy Tyrod comparison, but he really plays more like Robert Griffin on downfield throws and scrambles and Chase Daniel in the shorter/intermediate game. His footwork is a lot better than you expect out of a mobile QB, but you really don't want him dropping back a whole lot given how close that puts him to the line. I'll be curious how he handles blitz pick-up at the next level when he can't obscure a bad protection call by running really quickly or having absolute monsters in front of him. 1st Round, but heavily scheme dependent Daniel Jones - Duke Yeah, here's the usual "large white dude who climbs for various NFL reasons". Everyone's going to fawn over him because he played for Cutcliffe for years and is a tall, white guy who read progressions. His arm is decent enough and looks nice downfield, but he really shines on just throwing hard slants/ins that hit dudes in the hands. CBS compared him to Stafford, but Stafford frequently looked elite in the pocket and running the offense, whereas Jones really didn't do much with that until this year. Terrible pocket guy for being as tall as he is, particularly runs into contain/edge guys now which doesn't bode well for when he gets pressured in the NFL. Doesn't really look guys off so much as move through progressions, so you're not going to have a guy who creates a hell of a lot beyond what his skill guys give him. I also hate the way he reads high/low or triangle reads, since he appears to look deep then short, which causes him to miss guys breaking open downfield a lot where he has far more of an advantage. He's athletic enough and has size to take some hits, which he's going to need if he doesn't get better at progressions. People will point to his team and say that they're the reason he's not putting up stats, but Duke is in the drat coastal, where there were like 2 good defenses and not nearly the talent disparity. He'll get overdrafted. Looks a lot like Jake Locker to me. Will go in the 1st-2nd, should really go in like the 3rd-4th Drew Lock - Mizzou Sort of the inverse of Jones in terms of stats and effect on team. Heupel and Dooley really took the leash of and let him rip it downfield a lot. Being over 60% completion in that offense is good, but I would have liked to see him trying to control things a bit more at the line in terms of moving matchups around and changing calls. Has a cannon arm that's better downfield than even Haskins with some insane velocity, though I don't love his touch and think he's going to throw some fastballs directly to linebackers at the next level if he isn't careful. Has classic spread QB footwork where he gets awkward and side steps or doesn't plant before slinging it, though it was better this year with more called vertical shots in max protection under Dooley. If he ever learns to look guys off downfield, he's going to be a freak of nature. Gets through usually 2-3 reads most plays but will fall in love with a matchup to a fault at times behind his line. He could be a Mahomes-style stash-and-train for a good coach and be an elite QB from a tools standpoint, but it's going to be on an OC to keep building his habits up, since that offense was so dependent on him for so long that he had to do everything. Mahomes or even Derek Carr are decent comparisons. Probably late 1st-early 2nd round Will Grier - WVU Definition of a guy who should've come out last year. He looked like a surefire Day 1 guy last year; now I'm not so sure. Strength-wise, he has really incredible touch and ability to angle balls in a way that very few guys ever learn. He can throw a rope deep ball one minute and then a rainbow the next, and I think he might have the most varied deep game of any QB in a while. What I don't love is his velocity. He has some difficulty in that 6-15 yard zone of getting the ball to guys in a window, which Dana had to hide a bit by shortening some routes and relying on a lot of pick plays this year. Some of the best footwork in the class in terms of throwing mechanics, though he can be vulnerable to some sliding at times. I do worry about his release at times, as he'll pat the ball and loop a bit when trying to work a lane. Worst, he'll force balls he just doesn't have the arm for. He's also a little slight for a dude his age, though he doesn't have injury concerns. I know he can get through progressions; it's just a matter of if he can execute on them. Reminds me of Connor Cook or Andy Dalton. 3rd Round Ryan Finley - NC Probably going to be a dude who sticks around forever because he's smart and can call protections/distribute well in a 4-5 receiver pattern. Mechanically decent, though he winds up a bit which can be a tell where he's going, particularly when the ball dips. Has some of the best footwork in the class and generally steps into throws, even through pressure comes. He wasn't pressured a hell of a lot, but he certainly is capable of breaking down if his line doesn't give him time, since he's not particularly fast as a person or thrower. He really needs to learn some head fakes and look-offs in short yardage, because his arm is weak enough that any flat/out route can get jumped and run back if he can't create some extra space there. Solid touch, erring a bit on the side of being overly catchable, meaning he's going to need more out of his receivers to work back for balls in tight coverage. I wouldn't be letting him throw over the middle a whole lot. He'll be able to take the hits, but I'm not sure you want to have him in a position to be taking them consistently. Colt McCoy or Kirk Cousins as a prspect. 3rd-4th Quick Hits Jake Browning - Washington Winner of this year's "4-year starter who's physically overmatched by recruits to his school" award. He's really antsy and can just fall apart if guys are in his face/guys don't get open fast enough. Weak arm, decent touch at the sidelines. Late-round prospect who will get overdrafted because of his starting experience. CJ Beathard or Aaron Murray. Tyree Jackson - Buffalo Cardale Jones without the pedigree. Stupidly large (like 6'7 250) and loves to throw it deep. Makes some of the most inexplicable reads I've ever seen and has footwork that makes college Mahomes look like Joe Montana. Someone will take him as a project, but he shouldn't play for multiple years at least. Ryan Lindley Brett Rypien - Boise State Slightly smaller than prototype (6'2") but has a big enough arm to do what's asked. Has the weird David Carr thing where he spends so long looking downfield or trying to make stuff appear that he gets eaten alive by pass rushers. Not sure how much of that was him loving up protections and how much was him pressing. In the right offense, with a coach who helps with protections and likes to take deep shots to punish blitzers, he could be an actual starter. Weaker Kyle Boller or maybe even a Rex Grossman type. Clayton Thorson - Northwestern Wins the Mitch Leidner award for guy who looks like a QB and vaguely fulfills QB tasks on the field. Has a hideous wind-up and some injury concerns but decent touch, particularly on fades and late-breaking crosses. You'd have to re-teach him mechanics from the waist up which is hard to do, but his feet are at least solid. Big enough to take hits, but he won't be doing any scrambling for you. Gardiner Minshew - Washington State Mike Leach air raid guy, more to the stereotype than the last few out of Wazzu with great touch and not much to physically go on. Fast release but basically no protection responsibilities. Graham Harrell Jarrett Stidham - Auburn Should've come out last year. Physically talented, particularly in the sideline game and has played in two very different systems with some success. I hate his footwork out of the Malzahn offense and wish he wouldn't throw so many jump balls or sidelines routes, but they couldn't run at all this year to open up a true deep gameso I get it. Probably will be another guy who sticks around for a while from a tools standpoint but not a high-end starter by any means. Nick Foles Easton Stick - NDSU Yearly small school darling. Can run and move around a bit, but he's not going to be doing that for long in the pros. NDSU's talent outclasses so many people that it's hard to tell just how good he is in terms of downfield/sideline throws, but the ball was pretty much always there though he tends to be short rather than long which will need to be trained out of him. Biggest thing will be him getting the ball out of his hands fast enough and not getting baited by LBs, since his scrambling tends to be a tuck and run rather than pure attempts to open things up and run a guy open. Colt McCoy Trace McSorely - Penn State Future gadget player extraordinaire. He's not quite as small as Murray, but he looks slighter and isn't as fast which leads to significantly more hits. Does an okay job of keeping his eyes downfield but has definitely proven to be a product of his receivers over time as his deep completions have fallen off. Severely lacks velocity, though he can get some air under the ball at times. Will miss dudes over the middle which would drive an OC crazy. Bad footwork, but pretty good high release. Slower Denard Robinson or fast Christian Ponder.
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Jan 15, 2019 20:30
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Didn't Kalli or someone do a study and determine that, if anything, super tall QB's are the ones that universally suck? Guys like Osweiler at 6'7".
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Jan 15, 2019 20:37
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Docjowles posted:Didn't Kalli or someone do a study and determine that, if anything, super tall QB's are the ones that universally suck? Guys like Osweiler at 6'7". They've all sucked, but there aren't really a lot of them out there to look at. There aren't a lot of sub 6 foot guys either I guess but that's because the NFL doesn't like them, not because they are rare as an actual prospect.
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Jan 15, 2019 20:44
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Chichevache posted:It's a shame Russell Wilson, Drew Brees, Fran Tarkenton, and Baker Mayfield washed out so horribly.
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Jan 15, 2019 20:54
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Diva Cupcake posted:Baker is 4 inches taller. That’s actually a lot. A lot taller. And yet, still undersized.
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Jan 15, 2019 20:57
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Chichevache posted:It's a shame Russell Wilson, Drew Brees, Fran Tarkenton, and Baker Mayfield washed out so horribly. Those people are all significantly taller than Kyler Murray. But yes I think they have done a good job preparing the way for even shorter guys
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Jan 15, 2019 21:02
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