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Randler posted:The Brits just voted against the exit deal, making a hard Brexit more likely. Note: Commons have basically voted themselves the power to ignore whatever harebrained scheme humiliated prime minister in name only Theresa May comes up with, and speaker of the house/only good tory alive Bercow has basically ruled that May is such an obvious failure that commons deciding to do whatever the gently caress without even taking note of the governmment is an acceptable way forward. Note: parliamentary support for no deal is minimal beyond the right wing of the conservative party.
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Jan 15, 2019 21:23
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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suck my woke dick posted:Note: Commons have basically voted themselves the power to ignore whatever harebrained scheme humiliated prime minister in name only Theresa May comes up with, and speaker of the house/only good tory alive Bercow has basically ruled that May is such an obvious failure that commons deciding to do whatever the gently caress without even taking note of the governmment is an acceptable way forward. Yeah, but otoh who will come forward and work out something that would get enough votes to pass? Can't see anyone manage to do so tbh
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Jan 15, 2019 21:27
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System Metternich posted:Yeah, but otoh who will come forward and work out something that would get enough votes to pass? Can't see anyone manage to do so tbh Nobody* will want to be the first to come forward and say "that's it lads we've thoroughly hosed up the brexit, time to admit it and withdraw A50", but a second referendum will be proposed and agreed to with the intent of sinking Brexit. There will be lengthy debates on how to word the question just right to achieve the desired result while pretending it's not a stitch-up. Leave will win again anyway, because the British public is wrong about everything. At this point it's April and Britain has crashed out in a hard Brexit because nobody remembered to ask the EU for an A50 extension to cover the period of the second referendum. *Not counting libdems, who aren't real MPs, and will be ignored
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Jan 15, 2019 21:35
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suck my woke dick posted:Note: Commons have basically voted themselves the power to ignore whatever harebrained scheme humiliated prime minister in name only Theresa May comes up with, and speaker of the house/only good tory alive Bercow has basically ruled that May is such an obvious failure that commons deciding to do whatever the gently caress without even taking note of the governmment is an acceptable way forward. I don't see what a clever scheme might have looked like in this situation. The British voters effed themselves with their referendum and you either ignore the results and damage the reputation of democracy for decades or you pull it through and hurl yourself off the Brexit cliff as the sovereign (the People, not the Queen) commanded you to.
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Jan 15, 2019 23:03
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Einbauschrank posted:I don't see what a clever scheme might have looked like in this situation. The British voters effed themselves with their referendum and you either ignore the results and damage the reputation of democracy for decades or you pull it through and hurl yourself off the Brexit cliff as the sovereign (the People, not the Queen) commanded you to. In the timeline we have, democracy showed its ugly side by more than half of all voters going with a proposition that should have been laughable at best for anyone with two brain cells to rub together, and after that debacle the entire British ruling class, government, opposition, media, everyone, showed that they are a vast mass of utter loving idiots who shouldn't be trusted with anything, let alone leading one of Europe's largest nations. Quietly ignoring the referendum would have looked bad, yes, but in comparison to the shambolic disaster we have at our hands now it would have been a blessing.
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Jan 15, 2019 23:21
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System Metternich posted:In the timeline we have, democracy showed its ugly side by more than half of all voters going with a proposition that should have been laughable at best for anyone with two brain cells to rub together, and after that debacle the entire British ruling class, government, opposition, media, everyone, showed that they are a vast mass of utter loving idiots who shouldn't be trusted with anything, let alone leading one of Europe's largest nations. Quietly ignoring the referendum would have looked bad, yes, but in comparison to the shambolic disaster we have at our hands now it would have been a blessing. You portray it like it was a temporary lapse of judgment. 45%-50% of people still want this. My money is on them crashing out with no deal while they are still debating about insane pipe dreams like a second referendum, renegotiating(a substantial amount of people hasn't even realized that the negotiations are over), new elections, a Labour government, joining EFTA, deadline extensions, etc. They are literally living in a different reality than us at this point. It's either that or revoking Brexit, which is becoming more and more likely but will gently caress up the country too, just in different ways.
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Jan 16, 2019 01:41
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:You portray it like it was a temporary lapse of judgment. 45%-50% of people still want this. For my narrow self interest, they can cancel Brexit. For the benefit of the EU they should just leave.
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Jan 16, 2019 01:48
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:You portray it like it was a temporary lapse of judgment. 45%-50% of people still want this. I know this. But just because a large part or even a majority of people want some insane thing this doesn't mean that it has to happen. Calling the referendum in the first place was sheer idiocy, but going with the leave option because of what amounts to a non-binding national poll is hosed in so many ways I don't even know where to begin. The whole point of representative government is that the common people don't have to know or care about the intricacies of just-in-time logistics within the British automobile industry or w/e because parliament and the government do, but on the other hand in an ideal system this would also mean that the government either tries to properly inform the people when an extremely important decision like Brexit is on the table, or simply ignore popular sentiment when it clearly supports the worse option. It's clear that a large percentage of the British population ranges from "uninformed" to "dumb as a rock" to "actively malicious", but that's the case anywhere else too (though maybe on a different scale, granted) and you don't see other countries imploding in the same way. The whole thing is mainly a total failure of British statecraft imho.
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Jan 16, 2019 07:29
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Schröder, for as terrible as his politics were, at least knew not to trust the Sovereign for anything EU and let the constitution pass through the usual channels.
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Jan 16, 2019 07:40
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suck my woke dick posted:For my narrow self interest, they can cancel Brexit. This. How could any British government ever have a productive relationship with the EU if half of it's public thinks still being in the EU is illegitimate? The Brits were a thorn in the side of committed Europhiles even before the referendum, this would only get worse. I would be very happy if we get some kind of orderly Brexit, but for the good of the EU, even a no-deal Brexit is better than just ignoring the referendum. If the Brits later decide to rejoin, if they change their opinion about the EU, then that would be fine. They would come back, knowing what awaits them, and what we expect of them in return. Or they stay out of the EU. But an unwilling EU member will only harm the European Union.
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Jan 16, 2019 08:11
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Brexit is that episode of the Simpsons where Bart wins a radio competition and insists on claiming the joke prize elephant
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Jan 16, 2019 08:12
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Jesus Christ. All you anti democrats should just come out and say it as it is. Your first choice in proper government would be a benevolent dictator. He knows best after all. The utter contempt for all these “dumb people” is staggering. The system itself has failed. In a functioning democracy the people would be informed enough to make informed decisions. This however is not wanted in our representative “democracy”. Every so often this bites the ruling class into their asses. Most of the time it works as intended.
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Jan 16, 2019 08:19
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bronin posted:Jesus Christ. All you anti democrats should just come out and say it as it is. Your first choice in proper government would be a benevolent dictator. He knows best after all.  Don't be discouraged by the German naysayers, British friends. Insist on the Clean Break Brexit you want and deserve. Randler fucked around with this message at 08:52 on Jan 16, 2019 |
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Jan 16, 2019 08:24
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What if I am discourse though
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Jan 16, 2019 08:41
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bronin posted:Jesus Christ. All you anti democrats should just come out and say it as it is. Your first choice in proper government would be a benevolent dictator. He knows best after all. The whole point of a representative parliamentary democracy is that the common people don’t need to be all that informed if they can’t or don’t want to, just informed enough to vote in somebody who will do the difficult and complex work of politics for them. This is a good thing! You work in a Stadtverwaltung iirc, so you provably are familiar with the complex array of regulations, practical assessments, financial considerations and political tactics that more often than not surround seemingly clear-cut issues. Would you expect the average man, woman or child on the street to know or even care about this, especially when it’s not only a single issue, but hundreds or even thousands instead that need to be debated on again and again? Of course not, and nobody expects them to either! This is the job of the mayor, the city council and the Stadtverwaltung now, and in an election you (as part of the democratic sovereign) explicitly express your trust in them to act responsibly in your stead for the next six years. If, on the other hand, you are dissatisfied with the work of the mayor then there are plenty of formal and informal ways to express said dissatisfaction. The Brexit referendum on the other hand was organised by an incompetent government as a political ploy to keep radical anti-EU backbenchers in line. The British people were *not* properly informed, both because of a systemic failure of politics, media and society as a whole dating back years if not decades, and because a lot of powerful people did not want them to make an informed decision, because this would in all likelihood have meant a defeat of Brexit. And on top of that it wasn’t even in the form of a legally binding referendum, but instead basically was a nation-wide poll conducted by the government. So tell me, why is this democratic? Or why is it less democratic if a parliament elected by the people to decide on complex issues like this does just that? Also one thing: Brexit didn’t bite the ruling class in the rear end, just look at how many MPs supported and still support Brexit. The same goes for many in the media, and the wealthy elites beyond parliament too. What Brexit instead does is biting the common people in the rear end, because they let themselves be manipulated by powerful interests into voting for something that will gently caress them over. Said powerful interests did this by blunt lies as well as by appealing to the base instincts (us vs. them, „gently caress you got mine“ etc) that are inherent in every person, me, and you, and everybody else, although they are more pronounced in some than in others. This isn’t to absolve the British people from all blame, because voting for Brexit is akin to shooting yourself wilfully in the foot and in 2016 it would have been possible to inform yourself if the government refuses to do that. Brexit isn’t a good thing, it wasn’t made on an informed basis and it will negatively affect all of us for a long time. In a perfect world the referendum would never have been called at all, but it was, and so the second best thing would have been for the government to own up, say why exactly this would be a horrendous idea and to bury the entire project. They didn’t, and so here we are.
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Jan 16, 2019 09:11
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bronin posted:Jesus Christ. All you anti democrats should just come out and say it as it is. Your first choice in proper government would be a benevolent dictator. He knows best after all. My very first paper in political sciences was about representative vs direct democracy. It sucked and earned me the worst grade of my career. Democratic Politics should be a complex thing because a pluralistic society is really complex. On a functional level a pluralistic democratic system ensures that many different POV have to be taken into account before somebody (usually "the majority") comes to a binding conclusion. In fact, what Wengy called discourse. It can work in many different systems. But the representative system is the one established in the UK and to introduce a referendum out of the blue is a terrible idea. The notion that the powers that be keep the populace dumb is a a baseless accusation which smacks of populism. It's not like 100% of People care about politics 100% of the time. 30-50% can't be arsed to elect their State Parliament. They probably still have lots of opinions, but if it's out of their field of expertise it probably sucks rear end. And that's perfectly OK. Edit: What SM wrote. Einbauschrank fucked around with this message at 09:30 on Jan 16, 2019 |
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Jan 16, 2019 09:26
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I don't know about y'all but I'm writing in the dictator from tropico every election. El presidente where is the bauxite mine you promised.
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Jan 16, 2019 10:15
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az posted:I don't know about y'all but I'm writing in the dictator from tropico every election. El presidente where is the bauxite mine you promised. I had so much fun throwing random people in jail in the first Tropico, I probably should be kept as far away as possible from any job with actual responsibility
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Jan 16, 2019 10:19
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Tropico is awesome but when I reinstalled it last year it wouldn't let me play because I didn't register with some always online thing. There's a new one coming out this year, let me know if they allow playing without a login again.
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Jan 16, 2019 10:23
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get your games from gog.com instead of steam, then they're DRM-free
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Jan 16, 2019 10:35
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The brexit vote was also massively skewed by a) facebook propaganda, from our friends at disgraced and shut down company Cambridge Analytica (and maybe a soupçon of russia), b) lies, traditionally printed on the sides of enormous busses, c) olds, most of whom have by now already left the EU of natural causes it's a shitshow top to bottom, and it's accomplished its primary objective (disintegrating UKIP) with hilariously lethal side effects (also disintegrates the UK economy, like Jean-Claude Juncker just did the Thanos finger snap)
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Jan 16, 2019 11:25
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Lunar Suite posted:The brexit vote was also massively skewed by Also, the leave voters were not at all united in what kind of Brexit they wanted. Some wanted a radical cut, others favored the EFTA option. Some of the latter may prefer no Brexit over a no-deal Brexit. And it's good you mentioned UKIP. For all lovers of representative democracy, UKIP was gaining strength every election. And there have always been a sizable pro-Brexit group among the Tory MPs. There's no telling if there would not have been a parliamentary majority in favor of Brexit sooner or later anyways.
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Jan 16, 2019 11:29
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Lots of Tories don't mind a hard Brexit at all, since curtailed freedom of movement does not matter to the wealthy. Or the UK economy taking a massive nosedive while the government is desperately trying to negotiate new trade deals with no access to the EU market. Healbot fucked around with this message at 11:41 on Jan 16, 2019 |
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Jan 16, 2019 11:36
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Healbot posted:Lots of Tories don't mind a hard Brexit at all, since curtailed freedom of movement does not matter to the wealthy. Also when the country goes down the drain they can buy it up on the cheap and strip it for parts.
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Jan 16, 2019 11:43
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Dommolus Magnus posted:Also when the country goes down the drain they can buy it up on the cheap and strip it for parts. Trump golf courses covering Britain, as far as the eye can see
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Jan 16, 2019 11:45
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System Metternich posted:The whole point of a representative parliamentary democracy is that the common people don’t need to be all that informed if they can’t or don’t want to, just informed enough to vote in somebody who will do the difficult and complex work of politics for them. This is a good thing! You work in a Stadtverwaltung iirc, so you provably are familiar with the complex array of regulations, practical assessments, financial considerations and political tactics that more often than not surround seemingly clear-cut issues. Would you expect the average man, woman or child on the street to know or even care about this, especially when it’s not only a single issue, but hundreds or even thousands instead that need to be debated on again and again? Of course not, and nobody expects them to either! This is the job of the mayor, the city council and the Stadtverwaltung now, and in an election you (as part of the democratic sovereign) explicitly express your trust in them to act responsibly in your stead for the next six years. If, on the other hand, you are dissatisfied with the work of the mayor then there are plenty of formal and informal ways to express said dissatisfaction. My post wasn't a direct reply to Brexit but to the very common notion in (somewhat) educated circles that the working class/poor are too stupid for their own good. I see it here all the time. I see it as a failure or deliberate decision of "the system". I'm well aware of the intention of representative democracy or more like what is touted as the reason behind it. Of course people don't need to know the intricacies of our bureaucratic system, that's what the Volksvertreter are for as you correctly pointed out. But people cannot make informed decisions if the political process is shaped as it is. Let's stay on the small scale and a Gemeindeverwaltung. Why even are there "nichtöffentliche Gemeinderatssitzungen"? What is the so called sovereign not supposed to know? Why is there such a thing as Geheimhaltung when it comes to political decisions? Why are Geheimdienstakten unter Verschluss for 120 years? Gründe der Staatssicherheit my rear end. People can't make informed decisions if they are not properly informed. The problem is that elected representatives can do what they want even if it is the exact opposite of what the people who elected them want. Unless the Abgeordnete/Stadtrat/whatever does something illegal there isn't really a way to get rid of them. Do you think the people wanted the Agenda 2010? Desctruction of the gesetzliche Rente? Auslandseinsätze der Bundeswehr? There are lots of issues where what the majority of people want and what is done because of "Alternativlosigkeit" are complete opposites. I'm rambling now I know. Writing long essays never was something I'm good at. What I'm sick of is this arrogance of the so called educated/Bildungsbürgertum and parts of the so called left. As for Brexit, my perspective is one from the left even if the motivation for most of the leave votes probably didn't come from that direction... https://www.jacobinmag.com/2018/04/brexit-labour-party-socialist-left-corbyn
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Jan 16, 2019 11:56
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Torrannor posted:This. How could any British government ever have a productive relationship with the EU if half of it's public thinks still being in the EU is illegitimate? The Brits were a thorn in the side of committed Europhiles even before the referendum, this would only get worse. I would be very happy if we get some kind of orderly Brexit, but for the good of the EU, even a no-deal Brexit is better than just ignoring the referendum. If the Brits later decide to rejoin, if they change their opinion about the EU, then that would be fine. They would come back, knowing what awaits them, and what we expect of them in return. Or they stay out of the EU. But an unwilling EU member will only harm the European Union. Britain: Hungary with rockets.
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Jan 16, 2019 12:37
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Healbot posted:Lots of Tories don't mind a hard Brexit at all, since curtailed freedom of movement does not matter to the wealthy. I think you got it wrong. The only income group that was "slanting" in favour of Remain was the 60k+ group. There are finer ways to analyse the vote, but if you take income as deciding parameter, that's the result. http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/brexit-and-the-squeezed-middle/ It's not like the average middle or working class member of the UK had to migrate to Poland in the past to work as a toilet or computer toucher, but the other way round. And this freedom of movement was built up as a neoliberal conspiracy by populists in all parties.
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Jan 16, 2019 12:38
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Healbot posted:Or the UK economy taking a massive nosedive while the government is desperately trying to negotiate new trade deals with no access to the EU market. They can just compensate that by using the Money they saved during EU membership die to the rebates as well as the membership fees they are now saving. England will be fine and is in a financially secure enough position to make Brexit bearable for any Anglo who might be negatively affected.
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Jan 16, 2019 13:02
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Randler posted:They can just compensate that by using the Money they saved during EU membership die to the rebates as well as the membership fees they are now saving. That assumes whoever is in charge of Britain isn't actively trying to kill the poor, which is historically a very optimistic assumption to make.
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Jan 16, 2019 13:10
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Randler posted:They can just compensate that by using the Money they saved during EU membership die to the rebates as well as the membership fees they are now saving. The UK is a lot bigger than England; also, losing access to the EU to sell their services and financial products to will gently caress (and is already loving) the UK economy
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Jan 16, 2019 13:40
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All These things were predictable well in advance, so it is fair to assume that the British electorate (referendiate?) has taken those things into account and considered them a cost worth paying for regaining sovereignity. In any case, we accept their democratic decision to leave, so we should also welcome the consequences die the UK from that.
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Jan 16, 2019 13:56
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bronin posted:Why is there such a thing as Geheimhaltung when it comes to political decisions? lol
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Jan 16, 2019 14:22
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Randler posted:All These things were predictable well in advance, so it is fair to assume that the British electorate (referendiate?) has taken those things into account and considered them a cost worth paying for regaining sovereignity. Freudian Vertipper? All these things were predicted well in advance by the Remain campaign, and disputed by the Leave campaign. Did people who believed Boris and Farage really consider them a cost worth paying for, or did they believe they would be better off after Brexit? But you are right, they voted for Brexit, and now they have to live with it.
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Jan 16, 2019 14:40
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How high was the participation rate in that vote again anyway? Wasn't it low enough to call the referendum into question from the beginning?
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Jan 16, 2019 16:50
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Nuramor posted:How high was the participation rate in that vote again anyway? Wasn't it low enough to call the referendum into question from the beginning? Turnout was ~72% actually, so not too bad.
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Jan 16, 2019 17:05
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There also, and more legally relevant from an EU perspective, was a parliamentary vote.
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Jan 16, 2019 17:11
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The funniest thing was Cameron calling the referendum, thinking he could put pressure on the EU while the populace would barely vote remain.
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Jan 16, 2019 17:48
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England will always have the special relationship with the US to fall back on.
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Jan 16, 2019 17:59
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I feel Randler is grumpier than usual today
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