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Next time someone talks about any biology research or animal study ask "is the mouse okay"?
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Jan 16, 2019 18:42
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:this is literally an experiment to show growing plants on the moon is possible. It is the first time in all of human history that a plant has ever grown on another world. It's a huge big deal. You are reading my take the opposite way it is intended. I'm not saying that it should teach us that space habitation is impossible, I'm saying that it should teach us that it is possible, but difficult, and that it deserves to be taken seriously. ^ are you saying we shouldn't take animal welfare in scientific testing seriously...?
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Jan 16, 2019 18:43
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Lightning Knight posted:You are reading my take the opposite way it is intended. I'm not saying that it should teach us that space habitation is impossible, I'm saying that it should teach us that it is possible, but difficult, and that it deserves to be taken seriously. I think he was keying off of Kerning's idiotic posts, and lumped you in with his opinion. Germinating seeds on the moon is cool and good.
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Jan 16, 2019 18:47
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Next time someone talks about any biology research or animal study ask "is the mouse okay"? lol if you think animal testing is in any way, shape, or form ethical or moral science worship really has rotted the internet's brains, goddamn
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Jan 16, 2019 18:48
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Lightning Knight posted:You are reading my take the opposite way it is intended. I'm not saying that it should teach us that space habitation is impossible, I'm saying that it should teach us that it is possible, but difficult, and that it deserves to be taken seriously. You needed this to teach you that turning off the heater in 200 degree below zero temperature kills seeds and unborn maggots? We didn't need to go to the moon to find that out, and that wasn't part of the experiment. Like breaking news, they throw all the cell cultures and lab mice in a trash can at the end of every experiment. They weren't planning to run this forever, it ran exactly till they planned it to run, things died exactly how they were supposed to. It doesn't "teach us" anything that stuff died when you stopped heating it. And focusing on it is like focusing on the dead potential baby in research that uses cells from human embryos, except even dumber because these embryos were literally maggots.
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Jan 16, 2019 18:54
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:You needed this to teach you that turning off the heater in 200 degree below zero temperature kills seeds and unborn maggots? We didn't need to go to the moon to find that out, and that wasn't part of the experiment. I see why no one likes you.
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Jan 16, 2019 18:57
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:You needed this to teach you that turning off the heater in 200 degree below zero temperature kills seeds and unborn maggots? We didn't need to go to the moon to find that out, and that wasn't part of the experiment. Oh wait, he's just an rear end in a top hat. Servers me right for giving him the benefit of the doubt. Experiments like this are mostly just "lets see what happens" gambits, and aren;t there for rigorous science. In this case they got a seed to germinate on the moon before freezing to death. Pretty cool, but also completely expected.
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Jan 16, 2019 18:57
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Lightning Knight posted:I see why no one likes you. Like literally is there anything that could happen anywhere that was good or cool enough that you wouldn't need to scrounge for "actually this is bad if you think about it"? Like yes, the first plant growing on another world is actually proof that we need to discuss.... the animal rights of.... cotton plants. Because they disposed of the plant instead of running the experiment forever or sending a ship to retrieve it? Owlofcreamcheese fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Jan 16, 2019 |
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Jan 16, 2019 18:59
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Like literally is there anything that could happen anywhere that was good or cool enough that you wouldn't need to scrounge for "actually this is bad if you think about it"? That isn't what I'm arguing at all? Like, I'm sad the plants died because space plants are cool, but I'm not mad that they didn't sustain them or think it's unethical or whatever.
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Jan 16, 2019 19:03
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Lightning Knight posted:That isn't what I'm arguing at all? Like, I'm sad the plants died because space plants are cool, but I'm not mad that they didn't sustain them or think it's unethical or whatever. I highly doubt you are sad about a cotton seed. Honestly it's the stupid focus from the media and kerning and the reports like the part where it died was some part of the experiment that is grating. The fact indoor plants die if you turn off the heat when it's cold out is something that is trivially true, it wasn't part of the experiment at all, let alone the focus or the conclusion.
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Jan 16, 2019 19:14
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Lightning Knight posted:That isn't what I'm arguing at all? Like, I'm sad the plants died because space plants are cool, but I'm not mad that they didn't sustain them or think it's unethical or whatever. Honestly, the opening line of the article is touching: "There was once a tiny garden on the moon..." Yup, that made me sad too.
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Jan 16, 2019 23:49
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I highly doubt you are sad about a cotton seed.  Why are you... presuming to know the contents of someone else's head? Aren't they free to report their own subjective opinion? I was a little sad too because a tiny baby plant sprouting is a very cute thing, doing it on the moon is even cuter. You want to root for small cute things, even if you know rationally that the experiment has to end.
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Jan 16, 2019 23:59
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Is there literally anything that could make you people happy ever? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 17, 2019 00:04
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You not posting.
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Jan 17, 2019 00:08
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Is there literally anything that could make you people happy ever? hahahahaaa
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Jan 17, 2019 00:15
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Honestly curious what happens with the little biosphere when it's sunup on the moon again. Another sprout? Mold and fungus?
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Jan 17, 2019 00:17
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Is there literally anything that could make you people happy ever? Here's something.
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Jan 17, 2019 00:25
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Failson posted:Honestly curious what happens with the little biosphere when it's sunup on the moon again. Another sprout? Mold and fungus? This is a good question, I hope the Chinese keep reporting on it if anything cool happens.
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Jan 17, 2019 00:27
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Aliens come out of it.
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Jan 17, 2019 00:32
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It's cool they did it if it was a "hey, we have some spare payload, what can we chuck on board?" afterthought, but did it really demonstrate anything we didn't already know? It was a sealed habitat with growing medium from Earth right? So the only real difference between being on Earth was the lower gravity and some potential radiation.
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Jan 17, 2019 00:37
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Kerning Chameleon posted:lol if you think animal testing is in any way, shape, or form ethical or moral If you're against animal testing in general you're an uneducated ingrate who should refuse to use medical services and suffer the consequences  . Also moon beans are neither disappointing nor a step forward. We have already successfully grown lettuce in an elaborate orbital tin can so showing we can kinda sorta sprout a seed in a cheapo tin can is mildly interesting bit of flag planting
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Jan 17, 2019 00:40
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Senor Tron posted:It's cool they did it if it was a "hey, we have some spare payload, what can we chuck on board?" afterthought, but did it really demonstrate anything we didn't already know? Sure, but there's always some value even in testing things that you think should be obvious. Plus, the headline "CHINA FIRST TO GROW PLANT ON THE MOON" is probably pretty good value in terms of propoganda vs. cost.
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Jan 17, 2019 00:44
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ashpanash posted:Sure, but there's always some value even in testing things that you think should be obvious.
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Jan 17, 2019 01:00
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DrSunshine posted:Aliens come out of it. That piece of cotton is the first known extraterrestrial life form, and a dick drawn in the dirt is the first piece of extraterrestrial art.
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Jan 17, 2019 03:25
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Senor Tron posted:
“I don’t need to run experiments because I probably can guess the answer” has never been good scientific policy
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Jan 17, 2019 13:01
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:“I don’t need to run experiments because I probably can guess the answer” has never been good scientific policy I mean, I'm vigorously pro-bigger and better science and pro-bigger and better space toys, but even I wouldn't rate "sprout a seed in a can but the can is ~on the moon~" as a high-priority experiment. It's kind of neat and is the sort of stuff you'll want to double check at some point, but unless you go all-in on long-term self-contained artificial ecosystems (i.e. an experiment that's orders of magnitude more complex and expensive and the major difficulties of which don't get addressed by sprouting a seed in a can on the moon at all), it's the sort of thing that can just tag along and take up the spare payload capacity of a more important mission. Which is what the Chinese did. Good job China.
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Jan 17, 2019 13:26
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suck my woke dick posted:I mean, I'm vigorously pro-bigger and better science and pro-bigger and better space toys, but even I wouldn't rate "sprout a seed in a can but the can is ~on the moon~" as a high-priority experiment. It's kind of neat and is the sort of stuff you'll want to double check at some point, but unless you go all-in on long-term self-contained artificial ecosystems (i.e. an experiment that's orders of magnitude more complex and expensive and the major difficulties of which don't get addressed by sprouting a seed in a can on the moon at all), it's the sort of thing that can just tag along and take up the spare payload capacity of a more important mission. Which is what the Chinese did. Good job China. I'm sure too that the whole experiment wasn't just a yes/no checkbox. Like the potatoes didn't grow and the cotton did and I am sure they have a big chart on the wall of exactly how that was supposed to go and I have no idea if that result is exactly what the chart says or an interesting result or what. Like I am sure beyond just finding out a plant can grow someone is very excited to compare the exact number of mm it managed to grow compared to the prediction of the model of how much they should have expected. The whole data collected wouldn't be just "yeah, plants can grow"
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Jan 17, 2019 14:09
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I don't know why people are just assuming they put a bunch of seeds in an unheated container and just went "for science, I guess". The thing was designed as a sealed biosphere that was meant to survive for 100 days to simulate a lunar biosphere in miniature. Engineering issues or something meant it got too hot so they terminated the experiment to save energy, which is when it froze.
Bug Squash fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Jan 17, 2019 |
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Jan 17, 2019 14:43
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Bug Squash posted:I don't know why people are just assuming they put a bunch of seeds in an unheated container and just went "for science, I guess". The US wasted 20 billion dollars to slightly adjust their weapons technology in order to send a few people to the moon in a rickety tin can. When they got there, they hung a flag, grabbed a few rocks, put up a plaque that said "We came in peace for all mankind," brought them back home and continued bombing brown people. Don't get me wrong, I'm really glad we did go to the moon, but I can't avoid seeing that there's a lot of 'for science, I guess' cynicism in these things. Edit: Something like MSL, that's pretty much devoted to\entirely developed for the purpose of doing science. China's moon stuff is mostly about engineering and propoganda. If they can throw a little science in there, hey, why not. ashpanash fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Jan 17, 2019 |
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Jan 17, 2019 21:47
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To be fair, what we learned from those rocks was incredibly useful, especially in the earth sciences. Calibrations from those moon rocks helped give us timelines for the formation of the earth and moon and the age of the solar system.
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Jan 17, 2019 23:04
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Sure, but we could have done that a lot of that with robots at considerably less expense. Not all of it, and not with the volume they were able to do it, sure, but I'm not suggesting they didn't learn anything or that no new science was done. Just that it took a major backseat to propoganda and applied engineering.
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Jan 17, 2019 23:11
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Can we cut down on the black pill cynicism stuff overall. If you think space exploration isn't awesome, you're wrong. They did a gently caress ton of science on the Apollo missions, and even if they could have done it cheaper with robots we absolutely need to have engineering experience of human spaceflight in order to do it better.
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Jan 17, 2019 23:21
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Calm down man, I'm on your side. I love space exploration. I want more. In my universe NASA would have the money the defense department gets. I don't live in my universe though, I live in this one. I am not endorsing cynicism, but I'm recognizing its existence and the role it plays. You can't do good science without adequately understanding the background.
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Jan 17, 2019 23:28
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Bug Squash posted:Can we cut down on the black pill cynicism stuff overall. If you think space exploration isn't awesome, you're wrong. They did a gently caress ton of science on the Apollo missions, and even if they could have done it cheaper with robots we absolutely need to have engineering experience of human spaceflight in order to do it better. To clarify I wasn't asking in a "what a waste of resources" manner, I was genuinely curious if there was something about the experiment I had missed or if it was just a "Let's grow some stuff on the moon because gently caress yeah we can".
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Jan 18, 2019 00:05
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Bug Squash posted:Can we cut down on the black pill cynicism stuff overall. If you think space exploration isn't awesome, you're wrong. They did a gently caress ton of science on the Apollo missions, and even if they could have done it cheaper with robots we absolutely need to have engineering experience of human spaceflight in order to do it better. Every new thing we learn about space just further contextualizes how puny and irrelevant we are. I would argue persisting in this vain endeavor is actually increasing overall pessimism in our species, and in fact continuing to explore space is the most cynical decision we could make. If you care about the future of humanity at all, you should be demanding an immediate end to all space scientific research.
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Jan 18, 2019 00:42
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Kerning Chameleon posted:Every new thing we learn about space just further contextualizes how puny and irrelevant we are. I would argue persisting in this vain endeavor is actually increasing overall pessimism in our species, and in fact continuing to explore space is the most cynical decision we could make. What are you trying to say? Do you think that knowing that space is real big and full of places people can't build McMansions on will cause mass sadbrains and suicide If that's your reaction maybe you should get professional help and take your meds.
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Jan 18, 2019 00:44
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ashpanash posted:Sure, but we could have done that a lot of that with robots at considerably less expense. Is that actually the case? The soviets had a long running and dedicated program to use automated landers to sample the moon that resulted in 8 separate failed missions and three successes that netted a total of 11 ounces of moon rock, compared to the US's manned missions that returned nearly a thousand pounds of rock in addition to significant amounts of in place experimentation. I think people overestimate the abilities of robotic missions, where there is stuff that a robot COULD abstractly be able to do theoretically, but like, generally don't. Like the mars rover traversed 20 miles over the course of like, 2 years, while the moon rover moved that much in a day in like 3 hours. I think in the perfect realm of ideals robots could do any of this better and if we could just hire the right designers and have them work smarter and make less mistakes and so on a robot mission can do anything a human mission could, but historically it hasn't really been the case that robot missions have been able to match humans, certainly not some quick and easy simple cheap solution they often get sold as. Like I think people get very bogged down in what a robot "could" do without looking at historically how hard it has been to make robots to actually do these complex tasks. All the experiments done by all the mars rovers in all of history are stuff a human team could have done in an afternoon. It's super cool that we could design very complicated robots to also be able to do these things, but robots are really hard, and are very limited in actual real world implementations. Like in the abstract the curiosity rover could have a hand more powerful than a humans, but in actual design it can lift no rock bigger than 1.6cm wide. It's hard to make robots that match human capabilities, and doing so hasn't been cheap or easy so far.
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Jan 18, 2019 01:20
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Kerning Chameleon posted:Every new thing we learn about space just further contextualizes how puny and irrelevant we are. I would argue persisting in this vain endeavor is actually increasing overall pessimism in our species, and in fact continuing to explore space is the most cynical decision we could make. Why not demand an immediate end to all weapons programs instead? The world spends a tiny fraction of its budget on space scientific research, while wasting billions or trillions on private kickbacks and tax breaks to the wealthy class.
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Jan 18, 2019 01:24
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DrSunshine posted:Why not demand an immediate end to all weapons programs instead? The world spends a tiny fraction of its budget on space scientific research, while wasting billions or trillions on private kickbacks and tax breaks to the wealthy class. The government can ban more than one thing at a time, you know. There are already plenty of anti-weapons people in the world, and not nearly enough anti-spacers.
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Jan 18, 2019 01:26
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Kerning Chameleon posted:The government can ban more than one thing at a time, you know. There are already plenty of anti-weapons people in the world, and not nearly enough anti-spacers. So what would the benefit of banning space research be? What would it look like? How does it benefit the future of humanity? I can state the net negatives of nuclear weapons proliferation as a direct 1-1 relationship between the future of humanity. Nuclear weapons proliferation causes the chances of mutually assured destruction to increase. It causes an arms race in deadly weapons of mass destruction that can destroy civilization. Can you list some net negatives of space research/exploration that are on the same scale? DrSunshine fucked around with this message at 01:39 on Jan 18, 2019 |
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Jan 18, 2019 01:33
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