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Pham Nuwen posted:One of the English teachers in my middle school taught The Hobbit to his 7th grade class but I was unfortunately not in that class but the one next door. After finishing the book he would show them the movie and we could hear the goblin songs coming through the wall. He was also the cross country coach and would sing FIFTEEN BIRDS IN FIVE FIR TREES from time to time. During development this was actually a rather fluid concept. At one point "Nazgûl" referred only to "the combination of Black Rider and bird-thing", if I recall. I'm not recalling the details fully but the HoME books cover it somewhat, and Olsen naturally goes shoulder-deep on it.
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Jan 16, 2019 22:34
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As a kid I liked the bits with Frodo way more because I could actually understand what was happening. On my second read forwards I like the aragorn and co stuff way more. My most recent reread I didn't even finish book 6 because all the parts I had been excited to reread were in book 5.
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Jan 16, 2019 22:35
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cheetah7071 posted:Growing up in the 90s there were multiple people I knew who had the Hobbit read to them as a bedtime story by their parents. It was a staple children's book at least among nerdier parents. LotR had a (deserved) reputation as being difficult to read and if you wanted more fantasy it was hardly the only choice. My mum read it to me in the 70s, then I went on to LotR by myself. I must have been about 5. Unfortunately our copy had lost the last chunk, so for a while I thought it ended with Sam dropping dead outside the door the orcs had just taken Frodo through. I wasn't old enough to consider that in any way a strange ending to a book.
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Jan 16, 2019 22:36
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Haha, that was how the book "ended" for like a year because it took JRRT that whole time to get Return of the King to the publisher because he was obsessed with getting all the appendices right
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Jan 16, 2019 22:41
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I recall he wasn't originally planning on including any of that stuff--he had a lot of it set out just for his own sake to help maintain internal consistency but didn't intend to publish it. But so many reads of FotR and TT asked him in letters for background information that he eventually decided there was demand and wrote it up.
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Jan 16, 2019 22:43
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Tolkien is a little fuzzy about how he uses the term “Nazgul”. It is a general synonym for the ringwraiths even before they are mounted on flying creatures, but he also frequently uses the phrase “winged Nazgul” and other constructions which elide the fact that the Nazgul is mounted and act like they are, themselves, flying entities. “The Nazgul stooping to the kill”, “the Nazgul and their black wings”, etc. Olsen kind of advances the point of view that the Nazgul are mentally dominating or possessing the flying creatures or something, which I think is pretty justifiable: Aragorn and Gandalf both opine earlier that the Nazgul can either see through their horses’ eyes or make the horses follow whoever they see or something. And the ringwraiths are spooky and dominating the wills of dumb animals to suit their purposes is exactly the kind of thing they would do.
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Jan 16, 2019 23:13
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Originally he wanted to publish the Silmarillion material and LOTR at the same time, one volume each. He ended up broke and desperate when nobody would do that so he compromised by agreeing to 3 volumes and adding the appendix to ROTK since it was last and shortest.
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Jan 17, 2019 02:35
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skasion posted:Tolkien is a little fuzzy about how he uses the term “Nazgul”. It is a general synonym for the ringwraiths even before they are mounted on flying creatures, but he also frequently uses the phrase “winged Nazgul” and other constructions which elide the fact that the Nazgul is mounted and act like they are, themselves, flying entities. “The Nazgul stooping to the kill”, “the Nazgul and their black wings”, etc. Olsen kind of advances the point of view that the Nazgul are mentally dominating or possessing the flying creatures or something, which I think is pretty justifiable: Aragorn and Gandalf both opine earlier that the Nazgul can either see through their horses’ eyes or make the horses follow whoever they see or something. And the ringwraiths are spooky and dominating the wills of dumb animals to suit their purposes is exactly the kind of thing they would do. There is a very ambiguous scene after the battle on weathertop where somehow the Ring wraiths Maybe see the hobbits cross the Road from far away. Maybe it’s a coincidence tho. Maybe they could just see Frodo.
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Jan 17, 2019 02:39
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euphronius posted:There is a very ambiguous scene after the battle on weathertop where somehow the Ring wraiths Maybe see the hobbits cross the Road from far away. Maybe it’s a coincidence tho. Maybe they could just see Frodo. They can’t “just see” if you trust Strider: quote:’Can the Riders see?’ asked Merry. ‘I mean, they seem usually to have used their noses rather than their eyes, smelling for us, if smelling is the right word, at least in the daylight. But you made us lie down flat when you saw them down below; and now you talk of being seen, if we move.’ I imagine the connotation here is that they see the hidden “spiritual” world that Frodo and Sam can see into when they put on the ring, and that the great elf-lords can apparently look into whenever. Whereas the horses, being horses, just see poo poo, and the wraiths can tell that they see it somehow. As usual it’s Tolkien being coy about whether anything really supernatural is taking place.
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Jan 17, 2019 03:03
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Pham Nuwen posted:My first attempt was in the 8th grade while I was home sick with the flu, and when I got into Two Towers my fevered brain couldn't keep Sauron and Saruman straight, so I quit. There's something uniquely unpleasant about reading LotR when you have a flu or stomach bug. You get those passages where Frodo is wandering thirsty, aching and delirious through a migraine hellscape, and it all feels a bit too real. OctaviusBeaver posted:Reading Tolkien's letters makes me feel really dumb. These are great- where are you finding these letters?
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Jan 17, 2019 09:15
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Tree Bucket posted:These are great- where are you finding these letters? This book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Letters_of_J._R._R._Tolkien A lot of it is pretty boring or repetitive (there are ~30 letters telling people that LOTR is not an allegory for WW2) but there are also a lot of gems.
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Jan 17, 2019 18:57
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A funny little detail I'd forgotten is that orcs actually have numbers and constantly threaten each other to report their numbers to superiors. Makes sense since Sauron is the maia of order after all so he'd try to create an extremely orderly society.
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Jan 21, 2019 23:39
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Shibawanko posted:A funny little detail I'd forgotten is that orcs actually have numbers and constantly threaten each other to report their numbers to superiors. Makes sense since Sauron is the maia of order after all so he'd try to create an extremely orderly society. It's a very industrial age type idea too since modern soldiers have dog tags.
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Jan 21, 2019 23:44
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I'm enjoying this re-read a lot more than I thought I would. The book has a lot of fun bits that I'd forgotten about and I even enjoyed the Rohan stuff. The struggle at the end where they're dragging themselves through Mordor is good. I never got into any fantasy poo poo other than Tolkien as a kid, I think part of why I do like lotr is that it actually involves believable struggle against temptation and taking the easy way out of problems and physical hardship. The kids in Harry Potter solve their problems by cleverness and powers they did almost nothing to obtain and that always made them seem annoying and unsympathetic to me. I also like how it just has a blatant structure and events happen for clear reasons, like when Gandalf makes a prediction or something you can bet on that it will definitely come true in some way. It's not like Game of Thrones or some dumb poo poo where events just happen randomly because the author felt like it After reading it I find myself thinking in Tolkienlike sentences a lot. Like I'm going to work and think "my boss might be grumpy today but I fear him not" and like using the verb "to spring" more often than usual
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Jan 22, 2019 00:00
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One of the things that really interests me about the orcs is that Sauron’s forces are so disunited. His numbering program does not seem to have been productive. Strife between the northerners and the Mordor orcs, between the Morgul forces and the Cirith Ungol forces, between the trackers and the soldiers. You can hardly find two of them who act like they’re on the same team. They have commissars like Grishnakh whose only role is to beat down any “strange ideas”. Saruman’s orcs aren’t like that at all, they still despise every other kind of orc but they’ve got this unbreakable group identity. “We are the fighting Uruk-hai”. Tolkien portrays them far more favorably than the Mordor orcs. Ugluk is as nobly savage as any of Rider Haggard’s Zulus — no coincidence he shares their verbal tic of “I have spoken.” — he even gets the honor of a death in single combat with Éomer. They’re soldiers, and terrible people, but they have what might be called nationalistic pride. The Mordor orcs just hate everyone else, there’s no upside, they think nothing of themselves and will gladly leave one another to get their guts sucked out by giant spiders — in fact they think it’s hilarious.
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Jan 22, 2019 00:13
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skasion posted:One of the things that really interests me about the orcs is that Sauron’s forces are so disunited. His numbering program does not seem to have been productive. Strife between the northerners and the Mordor orcs, between the Morgul forces and the Cirith Ungol forces, between the trackers and the soldiers. You can hardly find two of them who act like they’re on the same team. They have commissars like Grishnakh whose only role is to beat down any “strange ideas”. Saruman’s orcs aren’t like that at all, they still despise every other kind of orc but they’ve got this unbreakable group identity. “We are the fighting Uruk-hai”. Tolkien portrays them far more favorably than the Mordor orcs. Ugluk is as nobly savage as any of Rider Haggard’s Zulus — no coincidence he shares their verbal tic of “I have spoken.” — he even gets the honor of a death in single combat with Éomer. They’re soldiers, and terrible people, but they have what might be called nationalistic pride. The Mordor orcs just hate everyone else, there’s no upside, they think nothing of themselves and will gladly leave one another to get their guts sucked out by giant spiders — in fact they think it’s hilarious. Sauron makes them compete on purpose to create a total surveillance state and maintain control
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Jan 22, 2019 00:17
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skasion posted:One of the things that really interests me about the orcs is that Sauron’s forces are so disunited. His numbering program does not seem to have been productive. Strife between the northerners and the Mordor orcs, between the Morgul forces and the Cirith Ungol forces, between the trackers and the soldiers. You can hardly find two of them who act like they’re on the same team. They have commissars like Grishnakh whose only role is to beat down any “strange ideas”. Saruman’s orcs aren’t like that at all, they still despise every other kind of orc but they’ve got this unbreakable group identity. “We are the fighting Uruk-hai”. Tolkien portrays them far more favorably than the Mordor orcs. Ugluk is as nobly savage as any of Rider Haggard’s Zulus — no coincidence he shares their verbal tic of “I have spoken.” — he even gets the honor of a death in single combat with Éomer. They’re soldiers, and terrible people, but they have what might be called nationalistic pride. The Mordor orcs just hate everyone else, there’s no upside, they think nothing of themselves and will gladly leave one another to get their guts sucked out by giant spiders — in fact they think it’s hilarious. Well Sauron also has the Nazgul to keep the Orcs in line. Unless there's some irresistible piece of loot around like a Mithril shirt the orcs will generally behave because if not they get to deal with the Nazgul. Also it's at least possible that the Uruk-Hai have been crossbred in some way with men. They're larger than normal orcs, and don't fear the sun. The movies make that explicitly a thing but iirc it's never made clear in the books if Saruman has done that or not. But if so that might explain their superior loyalty to Saruman since he's potentially their creator. He may also have treated them better than Sauron did. Sauron has countless slaves, and the Nazgul to keep them all in line. Saruman has no great captains. So if he's going to engender loyalty it's going to be by enticing his Orcs with plunder and such.
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Jan 22, 2019 01:28
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Just gonna post some scattered notes about orcs in lieu of responding coherently Gorbag kind of implies that the Nazgul didn’t interact with orcs much before the war of the ring: “they’re His favorites nowadays”. Shagrat and Gorbag aren’t fighting over the loot per se — the mithril shirt is too small to fit them and there probably are not pawnshops in Mordor — it doesn’t occur to Shagrat to keep it — Gorbag stole it because he wanted the credit for bringing it (and the news) to Lugburz, which is exactly what Shagrat then does. I always kind of wonder what they thought their reward would be. Maybe he got to retire on a pleasant farm by Nurn. Or maybe Sauron had him ground him up in the canneries for being a retard and getting his whole command and the whole Morgul garrison killed. Sauron probably feels no need to engender loyalty. Sauron’s orcs are his slaves, they fight because he mentally dominates them. With his death some of them literally lose their minds and just commit suicide. This is why Saruman instilling his orcs with such a sense of self-superiority is interesting to me. I doubt any of the fighting Uruk-hai killed themselves when Saruman bit it, if there were any left. The Uruk-hai being hybrids is confirmed in one of the late unpublished writings. The only person we meet who really seems big on Nazgul is Grishnakh, an ideological compliance officer from Lugburz itself (he has met Gollum so he must have been there a while). The frontier officers Shagrat and (especially, as he has to work with them) Gorbag both resent and fear them. Ugluk sounds like he barely believes in them. I’d need to reread to be sure but I don’t think the fighting Uruk-hai care for material gain much; they’re big on Saruman because he feeds them people.
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Jan 22, 2019 02:14
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We're talking like the Uruk-hai were Saruman's creation, but they were first seen out of Mordor more than 500 years prior to the story when they attacked Ithilien and Osgiliath.
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Jan 22, 2019 02:23
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Lemniscate Blue posted:We're talking like the Uruk-hai were Saruman's creation, but they were first seen out of Mordor more than 500 years prior to the story when they attacked Ithilien and Osgiliath. “Uruk-hai” in all but one occurrence in the book is used to refer exclusively to Saruman’s orc soldiery. “Fighting Uruk-hai” is exclusively used for this group at all times. “Uruk” is used more generally to refer to any large soldier orc whether from Mordor or Isengard. Not clear how Sauron made his uruks, but I don’t think Tolkien ever accuses him of race-mixing.
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Jan 22, 2019 02:29
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Which is kind of doubly confusing because "Uruk" is just "Orc" in another dialect, right? Or maybe an Elvish loanword into the Black Speech? In which case the in-universe nomenclature difference between two different orc breeds hinging on, like, asking whether you're drinking soju or shochu, is ... pretty in-character for JRRT
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Jan 22, 2019 02:34
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“Orc is the form of the name that other races had for this foul people as it was in the language of Rohan. In Sindarin it was orch. Related, no doubt, was the word uruk of the Black Speech, though this was applied as a rule only to the great soldier-orcs that at this time issued from Mordor and Isengard. The lesser kinds were called, especially by the Uruk-hai, snaga ‘slave’.”
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Jan 22, 2019 02:36
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skasion posted:“Uruk-hai” in all but one occurrence in the book is used to refer exclusively to Saruman’s orc soldiery. “Fighting Uruk-hai” is exclusively used for this group at all times. “Uruk” is used more generally to refer to any large soldier orc whether from Mordor or Isengard. Not clear how Sauron made his uruks, but I don’t think Tolkien ever accuses him of race-mixing. No, Saruman was the one that was rumored to have done that - but the implication is that the result is Man-passing spies like Bill Ferny's friend in Bree. Yes, Saruman commanded Uruk-hai (gathered by him from the Uruk-hai who scattered after the sack of Osgiliath? Or lent to him by Sauron?) who were to some extent loyal to him, though it is definitely interesting to speculate whether they would have remained so had they faced Mordor in open battle and Sauron bent his will upon them. Those large soldier orcs are also the new breed of Orc known as Uruk-hai, and they serve both the White Hand (with discipline and perhaps even loyalty), and the Eye (through slavery and fear).
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Jan 22, 2019 02:51
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The results are both the half-orc ruffian types and the fighting Uruk-hai. It’s in Myths Transformed
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Jan 22, 2019 02:59
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I haven't read that. Would you mind posting a quote or two? If the one you posted above is from there, I'm not sure it supports that reading by itself.
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Jan 22, 2019 03:15
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The one I posted is from the appendix on languages, here’s the Myths Transformed bitquote:It became clear in time that undoubted Men could under the domination of Morgoth or his agents in a few generations be reduced almost to the Orc-level of mind and habits; and then they would or could be made to mate with Orcs, producing new breeds, often larger and more cunning. There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile. This isn’t entirely conclusive by itself (he doesn’t directly identify the Men-orcs as the fighting Uruk-hai), but I think it is the obvious conclusion to draw in combination with the fact that Tolkien repeatedly stresses the great size of the Isengard uruks, and of course with Treebeard’s remarks. quote:”For these Isengarders are more like wicked Men. It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darkness that they cannot abide the Sun; but Saruman’s Orcs can endure it, even if they hate it. I wonder what he has done? Are they Men he has ruined, or has he blended the races of Orcs and Men? That would be a black evil!”
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Jan 22, 2019 03:28
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Thanks for posting the excerpt. Yeah, I see where you're coming from, but I still don't think that refers to the Uruk-hai - it seems just as obvious to me that they're the larger soldier-orcs referred to in the story of the sack of Osgiliath. I'll try to find that reference when I get ha and not phone posting, and we can compare. Treebeard isn't omniscient - he's speculating and it stands to reason he may never have closely examined varieties of Orc in the past few centuries. It's a drat shame Tolkien never came to a definitive answer as to the original of the Orcs that satisfied both his world-building and his Catholicism.
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Jan 22, 2019 04:03
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Shibawanko posted:
Yeah, that happens. Just wait till you realize you've started to adopt Catholic philosophies.
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Jan 22, 2019 04:16
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skasion posted:The Uruk-hai being hybrids is confirmed in one of the late unpublished writings. Aragorn even gets a little creeped out over how much Grishnakh seemed to know about the ring. It makes me wonder how since presumably the Nazgul wouldn't dare give much information to orcs. And Saruman obviously didn't either except to say bring the Hobbits. Grishnakh might not know about the ring itself but seems more aware that the Hobbits are carrying something rather than Ugluk who just wants to bring them to Isengard and doesn't even really bother searching them carefully.
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Jan 22, 2019 04:38
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Shibawanko posted:After reading it I find myself thinking in Tolkienlike sentences a lot. Like I'm going to work and think "my boss might be grumpy today but I fear him not" and like using the verb "to spring" more often than usual I definitely picked up Tolkien's love of parenthetical asides though moreso from the Hobbit where he does that a lot rather than from LOTR.
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Jan 22, 2019 04:41
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Ginette Reno posted:Aragorn even gets a little creeped out over how much Grishnakh seemed to know about the ring. It makes me wonder how since presumably the Nazgul wouldn't dare give much information to orcs. And Saruman obviously didn't either except to say bring the Hobbits. Grishnakh might not know about the ring itself but seems more aware that the Hobbits are carrying something rather than Ugluk who just wants to bring them to Isengard and doesn't even really bother searching them carefully. Ugluk has been ordered not to spoil the prisoners; he puns on the double meaning to Pippin (“we have ways of paying for tricks that you won’t like, though they won’t spoil your usefulness for the Master”) but the sense in which the order was given was that the prisoners shouldn’t be searched or robbed. He can’t search them without going against his commands. Pippin thinks Grishnakh does know about the ring, and I totally agree with him for once. He may not understand the whole history of it, and I’m not sure how much of his knowledge is illicit (would Sauron really clue in a mere orc on something that important, even for such a crucial mission?) but I’m quite sure he understands that the halflings are supposed by Sauron to be hiding some kind of extremely important object which was Gollum’s precious. He’s not totally sure that they have it on them though, which is why he starts feeling the hobbits up, and also why he is so keen to get information out of them rather than just killing them and turning their pockets inside out.
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Jan 22, 2019 04:57
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Lemniscate Blue posted:Thanks for posting the excerpt. Okay, from Appendix A, pt iv, "Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion", section "The Stewards" quote:In the last years of Denethor I the race of uruks, black orcs of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor, and in 2475 they swept across Ithilien and took Osgiliath. Boromir son of Denethor (after whom Boromir of the Nine Walkers was later named) defeated them and regained Ithilien; but Osgiliath was finally ruined, and its great stone bridge was broken. No people dwelt there afterwards. The strong black Uruks in Moria are the same folk as Saruman's Uruk-hai. The suffix "-hai" is Black Speech for "folk" or "people", and is also seen in "Olog-hai", the stronger Trolls that appeared out of Mordor at the end of the Third Age, and "Oghor-hai", which is what the Orcs called the Drúedain as per Unfinished Tales. So while Saruman almost certainly bred Men and Orcs, there's no convincing evidence that the product was the Uruk-hai, who had already appeared half a millennium prior. Saruman didn't start gathering (and breeding) Orcs until 2990, as per Unfinished Tales. The War of the Ring was not even 30 years later - long enough to breed a single generation of half-Orcs (maaaaybe two), but not nearly long enough for a real eugenics program to create (or even "improve") the Uruk-hai. Lemniscate Blue fucked around with this message at 06:04 on Jan 22, 2019 |
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Jan 22, 2019 05:53
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So what do you guys make of Saruman's ring? I assume he made it using the ring lore he'd learned. I've sometimes wondered if the reason Saruman is so weak after Sauron is defeated is because he made himself a ring and in so doing lost its power when the One was destroyed. But then Gandalf overpowers him verbally when Saruman still has his ring, and he destroys his staff as well although the staff being destroyed might be more of a symbolic thing as I don't know that there's any real evidence that the Maiar's powers are in any way tied to their staves. But Gandalf also says after the meeting with Saruman that Saruman's powers of voice were fading because he'd tried to play both tyrant and counselor. And there is a recurring theme in Tolkien's work of evil divine beings diminishing themselves power-wise by investing their power in evil deeds whether that's making rings, or changing the land, etc. Morgoth diminishes himself so much that he's overpowered by beings that should have no chance against him. Maybe something similar is going on with Saruman since he invested a lot of himself in his war effort. In any case he's clearly all but toothless by the time of the Scouring of the Shire, but why? If some of his power isn't bound up in the ring he made, then vagabond or no he'd still be a pretty potent threat to peace being a Maiar and all. But it seems like for some reason whether that's his ring being destroyed or otherwise he's weak and ruined by the time of the Scouring. Certainly if he were his normal self then even Frodo et al wouldn't dare lay hands on him, and Frodo even says as much when he's trying to convince the Hobbits not to kill him. e: The counterpoint is that in one of Tolkien's letters he speculates of an alternate history where given enough time Saruman would have eventually filled in enough gaps in his ring lore to craft his own one ring, so maybe we can consider the ring he made in the books to be a minor ring of power, if even one at all. I dunno. Ginette Reno fucked around with this message at 06:43 on Jan 22, 2019 |
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Jan 22, 2019 06:39
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I think we have to assume that all Rings of Power - whether the sixteen generic major rings, the Three, or even the minor rings that Gandalf called "essays in the craft, before it was full-grown" all operate on the same basic principles, and because those were designed by Sauron as Annatar, would all be vulnerable to the same back-door attack from the One. I rather suspect that Saruman wearing a Ring (the capitol letter is in the text), even of his own making, would leave him even more open to influence from Sauron than domination via palantir alone. He almost certainly couldn't puzzle out enough to fix the vulnerability. But I also doubt that Saruman had enough understanding and ability to make a very powerful Ring, so I doubt much of his power and self was bound up in it, if any. That seems to have been exclusively a feature of the One related to its ability to dominate, both other Rings and their wielders, and other beings in general.
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Jan 22, 2019 06:55
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Ginette Reno posted:And there is a recurring theme in Tolkien's work of evil divine beings diminishing themselves power-wise by investing their power in evil deeds whether that's making rings, or changing the land, etc. Morgoth diminishes himself so much that he's overpowered by beings that should have no chance against him. This is more like gnosticism than regular catholicism, the idea that matter is almost inherently evil. The Valar are gnostic Aeons and Morgoth is the evil demiurge who actually created the physical world and invests its power (falls) into it. The "good" characters in Tolkien also nearly always have some sort of intuitive knowledge of the divine, the hobbits are not intelligent but they're supposed to be far more sensible and good natured than most other people, which in gnosticism is how the fall is in some sense "reversed" and the divine spark can return to the divine proper out of matter. Men can also do this by not fearing death, which is the release from matter, and using their deaths to achieve something good. The Elves are inhabitants of a pagan universe with potentially eternal earthly pleasure at the price of never really being able to leave it.
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Jan 22, 2019 07:55
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Lemniscate Blue posted:I think we have to assume that all Rings of Power - whether the sixteen generic major rings, the Three, or even the minor rings that Gandalf called "essays in the craft, before it was full-grown" all operate on the same basic principles, and because those were designed by Sauron as Annatar, would all be vulnerable to the same back-door attack from the One. Magic rings were made before Sauron turned up to guide the crafting of the rings of power.
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Jan 22, 2019 15:14
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Um, have the Olsen podcasts stopped having new episodes for everybody else lately it just me?
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Jan 26, 2019 19:41
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Data Graham posted:Um, have the Olsen podcasts stopped having new episodes for everybody else lately it just me? I'm still in the early 30s in the backlist but I see episode 89 having dropped six days ago.
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Jan 26, 2019 19:58
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Aw, fucks sake, there they all are. Morte d’Arthur eps too. Just all showed up in a pile without the app notifying me apparently.
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Jan 26, 2019 20:00
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Yeah I am caught back up.
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Jan 28, 2019 20:59
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