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Orange Devil posted:I don't believe the problem is western democracy, let alone Swiss style democracy. I think the problem is capitalism. If we do away with that the democracy part is fine. Now you might argue western democracy hasn't protected us from capitalism and, yeah, that's not good, but like, what's the alternative here? A few pages back, but  The key problem in my opinion isn't even nonzero amounts of capitalism, it's long-term concentration of power in a small number of people. Capitalism (if not limited to "individuals or small chains of shops distribute widgets to consumers" roles and/or under heavy redistributive constraints in an otherwise socialist economic system) creates plutocrats, who then use their wealth to also acquire power directly or by buying off politicians, leading to oppressed masses. However, from monarchies to tinpot dictatorships to hijacked revolutions, every other known form of political system that concentrates power without regularly booting out the leadership has trended in the same direction regardless of which (if any) economic system was endorsed on paper.
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Jan 21, 2019 13:17
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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I agree, but I also think there are things inherently wrong with applying tools like "a market" uncritically to all possible problems, wether or not this leads to plutocracy or not. So for example, markets can be a useful tool to sort out the distribution of luxury products. They might not be the best tool and I'm undecided on if they're worth the risk, but they aren't on their face immediately evil. This same tool applied to healthcare on the other hand, is intrinsically evil because when you're staring down a potentially deadly or debilitating health issue you don't have any negotiating power and the price people are willing to pay fast approaches "everything I own plus the sum total of all future value my labour would be able to produce", aka literal slavery. Capitalism pushes for not just the former use of markets but also the latter, and thus has more things wrong with it than just the concentration of power in the hands of the few. Though yes, that is obviously the biggest thing wrong with it.
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Jan 21, 2019 13:25
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caps on caps on caps posted:No you said every party is capitalist. Those parties would certainly disagree with you, and you (and everyone else) can go and vote for them right now! lol you're playing around with semantics and delibarately missing the point - yes, communism is the goalpost, not capitalism with a little sign that says "communism" glued over it. you could've just said you were anticommunist from the first post, no need to string it out like this.
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Jan 21, 2019 13:26
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not a cult posted:lol you're playing around with semantics and delibarately missing the point - yes, communism is the goalpost, not capitalism with a little sign that says "communism" glued over it. What I am saying is that right now, in this country, if the majority of the people would want a communist party, then it would be voted into power and without a doubt, transform us into a communist country. In contrast, your original post literally said that there are no such parties, and thus seemed to imply that there is no communism because you can not vote for communist parties. Otherwise the proletariat would rise up and get bona-fide communists into power. In reality, no one wants communism, and the people in question, who are not a majority, even, vote for socialist/left parties. Edit: I mean you might say the idea to vote for communism instead to revolt for it is stupid, and wth is a communist party in a capitalist system even etc. I don't disagree. Just in the context of democratic participation that we be talking about, you can't just go and make a fantasy world statement such as "there are only capitalist parties" because that ain't true. Haramstufe Rot fucked around with this message at 13:44 on Jan 21, 2019 |
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Jan 21, 2019 13:38
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tbh it sounds like you don't know how communist parties work
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Jan 21, 2019 13:45
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here's a clue, just 4 u: Why was the Communist Party of the Soviet Union the party in power of the United Soviet Socialist Republics?
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Jan 21, 2019 13:46
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Tesseraction posted:tbh it sounds like you don't know how communist parties work Apparently, not so well. Tesseraction posted:here's a clue, just 4 u: Why was the Communist Party of the Soviet Union the party in power of the United Soviet Socialist Republics? Not because it was voted in. But are you saying that the communist parties cited earlier are not communist? In which case, the concept of a communist party itself doesn't make sense, since it can only exist (according to y'all definition) if it is already in power in a socialist system and, since we are talking about voting, has therefore nothing to do with the topic? Like, why then would you even bring up the lack of communist parties when none can exist in the first place. That's just really mean baiting me into googling communist parties in the EU and all that. Shame on you.
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Jan 21, 2019 13:53
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Jan 21, 2019 13:54
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Jan 21, 2019 13:57
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Jan 21, 2019 14:12
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e: nvm
Doktor Avalanche fucked around with this message at 15:11 on Jan 21, 2019 |
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Jan 21, 2019 15:09
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Tafferling posted:Right now they're accusing France of being in the G20 only by virtue of siphoning out resources from their colonies in Africa, thus creating part of the current immigration crisis, and plan to drop an official request for sanctions at the next european meeting.
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Jan 21, 2019 15:39
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Savoy should be Swiss
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Jan 21, 2019 16:00
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Tafferling posted:Right now they're accusing France of being in the G20 only by virtue of siphoning out resources from their colonies in Africa, thus creating part of the current immigration crisis, and plan to drop an official request for sanctions at the next european meeting. Any press link? Italian, English, French, I don't care. Anyways that's a followup to the extradition (in Bolivia) of Cesare Battisti. Salvini claimed he has "more names" of people he wants to see extradited. So I guess that's his negotiation tactic: "give me what I want and I will shut up".
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Jan 21, 2019 16:33
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Going back to Brexit, it's possible somewhere around 25-45% of people in the UK believe that "No deal" means "Fail to come to an agreement on leaving, so the UK stays in the EU". Which to be fair, would make the statement "No deal is better than a bad deal" really quite sensible, where in reality it's the slogan of a bunch of con-men/nutters. Talk about the importance of making choices clear though, assuming they do a second referendum at some point. Speaking of the referendum, anyone know if the EU is actually attempting to be proactive in stamping down "independence movements" now? Or doing poo poo like calling people like Cameron to tell them to knock it off before blowing up the EU for some stupid party-political bullshit? Though I suppose only the UK had a mainstream party with a strong anti-EU wing?
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Jan 21, 2019 18:13
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Speaking of the referendum, anyone know if the EU is actually attempting to be proactive in stamping down "independence movements" now? No, and I don't think they should. The entire reason why Article 50 exists is to show that membership is voluntary and not something that is forced upon by foreigners. Trying to deter people from looking at it longingly would be counter-productive as it would only make the option more appealing. IMO the best way to avoid further countryxits is to remain firm with the UK, and let them fall back to WTO rules if they don't change their mind on May's deal. No extensions for negotiations should be granted because we've seen that it was just a waste of time anyway as they're using all this time for political infighting instead of actual negotiating. No need to drag this further. And no cancellation of Article 50 either. It's only going to make the EU look more like a Hotel California thing. We need the UK to go away, on the terms they have chosen ("no deal"), and it's the consequences of this that will cause people to realize it's not a good idea. If it's all magicked away by the Deus Ex Machina of a second referendum going "on second thought, let's stay in" then you will not get an object lesson into why the EU is actually good, despite all the bad things that come attached with it.
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Jan 21, 2019 18:47
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Going back to Brexit, it's possible somewhere around 25-45% of people in the UK believe that "No deal" means "Fail to come to an agreement on leaving, so the UK stays in the EU". Correct: https://twitter.com/RebetikoWalrus/status/1087085296045436928
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Jan 21, 2019 19:10
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Jan 21, 2019 19:14
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Wouldn't the UK have to participate in the upcoming elections for the European Parliament at the end of May if they haven't left by then? I can't imagine the EU27 extending the deadline far enough to allow that without some extremely good reasons.
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Jan 21, 2019 19:15
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Mygna posted:Wouldn't the UK have to participate in the upcoming elections for the European Parliament at the end of May if they haven't left by then? I can't imagine the EU27 extending the deadline far enough to allow that without some extremely good reasons. Cat Mattress posted:We need the UK to go away, on the terms they have chosen ("no deal")
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Jan 21, 2019 19:24
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Cat Mattress posted:IMO the best way to avoid further countryxits is to remain firm with the UK, and let them fall back to WTO rules if they don't change their mind on May's deal. No extensions for negotiations should be granted because we've seen that it was just a waste of time anyway as they're using all this time for political infighting instead of actual negotiating. No need to drag this further. +1 for this. The only thing thats going to focus minds in the Tories/Labour towards any sort of progress in parliament is the looming exit date. Giving them any sort of extension just gives them more time to fight with each other, as they've been doing since June 2016.
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Jan 21, 2019 19:24
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A Buttery Pastry posted:The UK hasn't chosen "no deal" though. The UK has chosen to leave with a referendum, and to do so without a deal through its parliament.
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Jan 21, 2019 19:28
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https://twitter.com/BBCTech/status/1087377789056151552?s=19
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Jan 21, 2019 19:31
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Jan 21, 2019 19:46
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caps on caps on caps posted:What I am saying is that right now, in this country, if the majority of the people would want a communist party, then it would be voted into power and without a doubt, transform us into a communist country.. This is uh adorably naive, btw.
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Jan 21, 2019 19:49
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Cat Mattress posted:The UK has chosen to leave with a referendum, and to do so without a deal through its parliament.
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Jan 21, 2019 19:55
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Cat Mattress posted:Any press link? Italian, English, French, I don't care. Wait, let's clear it up: M5S is losing steam, and since they share part of their voters group with Lega, they need to adapt or die. Adaptation means that if 170 people die in the Mediterranean, Salvini says it's because NGOs are creating false hopes in showing Italy as a safe haven, therefore closed ports save lives, while Di Maio says it all happens because France acts like we're still in the colonial age. The campaining for European Elections 2019 has started.
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Jan 21, 2019 21:03
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Wengy posted:Savoy should be Swiss De la racaille d'Annemasse ? Dans ma Suisse ? Then where would Geneva and Vaud get their cheap labour? (and Geneva has some kind of history with Savoy)
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Jan 21, 2019 21:49
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Char posted:Wait, let's clear it up: M5S is losing steam, and since they share part of their voters group with Lega, they need to adapt or die. Adaptation means that if 170 people die in the Mediterranean, Salvini says it's because NGOs are creating false hopes in showing Italy as a safe haven, therefore closed ports save lives, while Di Maio says it all happens because France acts like we're still in the colonial age. I hate both of these fuckers with a fiery passion. Salvini more so, but Di Maio is a very close second.
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Jan 21, 2019 22:22
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MiddleOne posted:This is how all one-party states, democratic or not, work. Representatives still have to come from somewhere, they don't just manifest out of the ether. This presumes that the party is interested in having representatives, doesn't it? The Nazis for instance completely gave up the charade by 1942 when Hitler announced indefinite delay of the next Reichstag election (after the 1938 gimmick one where you just straight up had one party list to vote for, predetermined in berlin).
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Jan 22, 2019 01:36
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caps on caps on caps posted:What I am saying is that right now, in this country, if the majority of the people would want a communist party, then it would be voted into power and without a doubt, transform us into a communist country. This fails to take into account several pragmatic limitations that make this impossible. There's at least three major roadblocks to whether voting for a communist party is a viable road to communism that I can list off the top of my head. 1. There's the issue of political identity; especially following the fall of the USSR a lot of former communist parties have shifted ideologically towards a position closer to social democracy. These parties are no longer willing to transfer ownership of the means of production to the proletariat, even if they were placed in a position of power. I would cite SYRIZA as an example of this, which up to 10 years ago was a collection of various small communist and socialist parties, and which, following PASOK's collapse absorbed their voter base and decided to simply be a left-wing steward of Greek capitalism than a force that would transform the Greek economy into a socialist one. 2. Next up is ideological purity, that is to say, whether the communism they represent is true to the values of communism. I would lump all stalinist parties here. These are parties interested less in abolishing capitalism and more in establishing a dictatorship with communist aesthetics. They are what you vote for if you think America is the great satan, and only Russia or China can stop them. Not if you want communism. 3. So let's assume you've managed to find a true and honest communist party. You have voted them into power and they've begun the process of transforming Belgium into a socialist state and abolished private property. You are also existing dead smack in the middle of a continent whose capitalist order you are a threat towards. Whether it be through military intervention, subversive actions, or hostile diplomacy, international politics is an obstacle towards communism that no one country's party can overcome on its own. (For a historical example, you should recall that, following the bloodiest war the world had ever seen, most of the former combatants intervened in the Russian civil war against the reds.) In fact, I would say that this is the primary reason behind the first two roadblocks, as communist parties decide to either stop being threatening to capitalism in an attempt to ensure survivability, or look for patron states under whose protection they can safely exist. In short, for a citizen that wants the abolition of capitalism and a classless, communist society, internationalism is necessary and no one party can be depended upon to achieve this through a simple electoral victory.
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Jan 22, 2019 13:43
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I don't know what you're talking about, socialism in one country is working fantastic for *checks notes* oh, ah, hmm
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Jan 22, 2019 14:03
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To be fair, international socialism doesn't appear to actually exist yet.
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Jan 22, 2019 14:05
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Blut posted:+1 for this. The only thing thats going to focus minds in the Tories/Labour towards any sort of progress in parliament is the looming exit date. Giving them any sort of extension just gives them more time to fight with each other, as they've been doing since June 2016. It's been Tory infighting all the way, them + DUP are a majority and prefer to remain in control but paralyzed by internal conflict than let Labour or other opposition parties have a say in the Brexit process. If the current UK government falls it's absolutely worth extending A50 deadline because that's the first step on any possible path to cancelling Brexit. May's a loving nutter and will rather crash out than let go of her red lines that made the current deal so unpalatable.
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Jan 22, 2019 14:27
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:To be fair, international socialism doesn't appear to actually exist yet. Part of the reason I plan for voting for DiEM in the upcoming elections is that they're the first real attempt I've seen that are attempting a convergence in their politics across the entirety of the EU, which I personally consider a pre-requisite for European socialism to have any real potential.
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Jan 22, 2019 14:31
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YF-23 posted:This fails to take into account several pragmatic limitations that make this impossible. I mean the parties do exist. For example, the Marxist-Leninist party of Germany says that everything since Mao, and everything from the Soviets, was a betrayal of the socialist ideals. I think current mainstream left-wing parties are not what is meant here. How those parties would react to getting a lot of votes mainly touches upon what you believe happens when people get a lot of power. For your last point, I do think that an elected communist party in the EU would have to show some political sense and ingeniuity. Let's say people just had enough and vote the Marxist-Leninist workers party into power in Germany. If the grand strategy consists of implementing communism this very minute, you'll probably fail, economically even. No one debates that plopping a socialist country in the middle of Europe is enough. Obviously, and against the pushback, international expansion is necessary. All I said that there are parties who want this. But what do you think would happen if the next executive and the majority of the legislative in Germany were literal, full on communists with half a brain? It would simply put the country on a path toward communism, because people in those 0,2% parties are believers. They are not in it for the fame. So yeah, given the right party leadership, and the support of the population, I do think we'd get there. Will you have your classless society while Switzerland chills next door. Probably not. But I never claimed this. Anyway, how likely is it that people would vote majority communist in exactly one country? Of course this is all unrelated to whether you believe the idea of voting a communist party into power in a capitalist system is a thing that makes sense in the first place - as it isn't immediately clear to me what the plan of action for this is in the communist playbook. Perhaps someone has some theory there, but from prior conversations in this forum is that the consensus for full on socialism, even, is to "make it up as we go", which is by the way the reason why no one votes for those parties and actual socialism is dead. Edit: And to me being anti communism, as stated earlier. Apparently we have never observed real communism nor socialism anywhere in the world, and it seems I lack the imagination to see how the received literature translates to a different practical application to what was before. It certainly is not your job to convince me and my rasin-sized brain. I just see a lot of hype and I don't understand how it would practically work. There's literally no value statement attached to this, and you can call me dumb, hell, you'd be right. There's probably a lot of dumb people like me who can't actually imagine how exactly their lives would look under actual communism. We know the fake version that prevailed in Europe previously, and that one sucked. I also read an article by this Australian dude earlier stating how everything would be better and no one has to work due to "innovation", and everyone has more money and there's only small businesses, and even though I only have three working synapses, I can easily tell you that's a load of crap. But the real communism ain't that, I guess, and I am not intellectually versed nor capable enough to understand what that would be. Perhaps pass that on to your marketing departement? Haramstufe Rot fucked around with this message at 01:52 on Jan 23, 2019 |
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Jan 23, 2019 01:32
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Ahh but see, in Communism, there are no marketing departments. And if that doesn't convince you that communism is the light, nothing ever will.
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Jan 23, 2019 08:15
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Cuba has done remarkably well despite having the boot of a superpower on their neck for the last 70 years. They even invented sonic weapons that mess with your mind! also found the cure for aids in children
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Jan 23, 2019 09:03
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Western Communist parties consist entirely of secret police
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Jan 23, 2019 09:23
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When everyone is the secret police,is there really a secret police?
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Jan 23, 2019 09:38
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