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Solaris 2.0 posted:Hi Thread - just so I can educate myself and ask actual Venezuelans - the protests happening right now are organic right? People in the Trump thread reflexively take the opposite of whatever Trump's position is. Which, to be fair, is a sound strategy about 98% of the time.
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Jan 23, 2019 19:57
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:It's the C-SPAM one. Holy poo poo it's bad. The USPOL thread (where I post) also has posters having a meltdown over the protests.
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Jan 23, 2019 19:57
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Solaris 2.0 posted:Hi Thread - just so I can educate myself and ask actual Venezuelans - the protests happening right now are organic right? Yes, they were planned and organized by the Venezuelan political opposition. They were scheduled about a week ago to take place today, which is a pretty significant day in Venezuelan history because it's the day that we kicked out a dictator in 1958.
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Jan 23, 2019 19:59
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Im a leftist too and Maduro is bad, to the best of my knowledge. But if this causes Trump to intervene in Venezuela (possibly with the help of Bolsonaro), I think this is going to end badly
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Jan 23, 2019 20:00
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Solaris 2.0 posted:Hi Thread - just so I can educate myself and ask actual Venezuelans - the protests happening right now are organic right? Chuck Boone posted:Yes, they were planned and organized by the Venezuelan political opposition. They were scheduled about a week ago to take place today, which is a pretty significant day in Venezuelan history because it's the day that we kicked out a dictator in 1958. To clarify, there are the ones being organised by the opposition but the original kick off happened somewhat organically in poor areas as people got sick of seeing their children starve I guess not wanting to see your friends and family die of preventable causes while the 2% enriches itself and loots the country is reactionary now I don’t really know e: Or a CIA plot. No other options Furia fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Jan 23, 2019 |
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Jan 23, 2019 20:04
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Elias_Maluco posted:Im a leftist too and Maduro is bad, to the best of my knowledge. But if this causes Trump to intervene in Venezuela (possibly with the help of Bolsonaro), I think this is going to end badly It's one thing to force free elections and another to actually declare someone of your choosing is the country's leader.
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Jan 23, 2019 20:05
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Lightning Knight posted:This has to be a mistranslation. Christ, I thought so too and clicked the link and watched it before I even got to your post. It's only 33 seconds and it's a video of Maduro saying it. It makes his Little Bird Chavez story sound like it's grounded in reality. E: Wow that was a lot of posts in this thread in between. The quote is referring to Maduro saying in a speech to the army "Be assured that everything will turn out well and that we will come out stronger and wiser from this conjuncture. A handful of immature improvisers can not damage the republican life of Venezuela. Be assured. I tell you with certainty. I went to the future and I returned and saw that everything goes well and that the civic-military union guarantees peace and happiness to our people" Saladman fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Jan 23, 2019 |
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Jan 23, 2019 20:05
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mila kunis posted:It's one thing to force free elections and another to actually declare someone of your choosing is the country's leader. Interim, and the opposition in parliament are the last people to win a free election in Venezuela (which actually understates their win since the election was held in conditions unfavorable to them due to regime interference). If they take power and don't hold elections, obviously they'll be illegitimate then too, but right now they're the closest thing to legitimate the country has.
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Jan 23, 2019 20:08
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mila kunis posted:It's one thing to force free elections and another to actually declare someone of your choosing is the country's leader. fnox posted:It's not that he won the election. It's that the election Maduro used for his re-election is spurious at best. They're basically saying he abandoned his post by refusing to hold free elections, and according to the constitution, in this scenario the President of the National Assembly becomes president and must call for new elections. Juan Guaido is the current President of the National Assembly, three people have held that post before: Henry Ramos Allup, Julio Borges, Omar Barboza.
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Jan 23, 2019 20:10
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Solaris 2.0 posted:Hi Thread - just so I can educate myself and ask actual Venezuelans - the protests happening right now are organic right? Organic protests resulting in an opposition leader claiming to be the rightful government that the US and its client states all move in lockstep to recognize, certainly there is no precedent of that happening before.
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Jan 23, 2019 20:17
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OK so my understanding of the situation is this: The National Assembly (basically Parliament/Congress) is the only branch of government left that was democratically elected. They voted that their leader, Juan Guaido (whose position is similar to Speaker of the House) to be the new interim president, as Maduro's "re-election" was rigged and he has no claim to legitimacy in democratic terms. While the US and other governments have denied Maduro's legitimacy prior to today's events, Guaido was already the head of the National Assembly and he was voted into position of interim president before anyone outside of the country recognized him.
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Jan 23, 2019 20:18
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where can I read about the last Venezuelan elections? Were international observers allowed?
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Jan 23, 2019 20:19
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Brazil and Paraguay also recognized Juan Guaidó
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Jan 23, 2019 20:20
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:Organic protests resulting in an opposition leader claiming to be the rightful government that the US and its client states all move in lockstep to recognize, certainly there is no precedent of that happening before. I guess poor people should loving starve then
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Jan 23, 2019 20:21
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DoctorStrangelove posted:OK so my understanding of the situation is this: The National Assembly (basically Parliament/Congress) is the only branch of government left that was democratically elected. They voted that their leader, Juan Guaido (whose position is similar to Speaker of the House) to be the new interim president, as Maduro's "re-election" was rigged and he has no claim to legitimacy in democratic terms. While the US and other governments have denied Maduro's legitimacy prior to today's events, Guaido was already the head of the National Assembly and he was voted into position of interim president before anyone outside of the country recognized him. Just because tankies will bring it up, he only formally announced he was taking the interim presidency today, if I am remembering correctly Brazil’s new right wing rear end in a top hat president recognized him a few days ago.
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Jan 23, 2019 20:21
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:Organic protests resulting in an opposition leader claiming to be the rightful government that the US and its client states all move in lockstep to recognize, certainly there is no precedent of that happening before. Oh is that what happened in Ukraine? I thought Yanukovych grabbed a bunch of cash and fled the country
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Jan 23, 2019 20:24
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Flavahbeast posted:Oh is that what happened in Ukraine? I thought Yanukovych grabbed a bunch of cash and fled the country He forgot his golden loaves of bread.
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Jan 23, 2019 20:25
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DoctorStrangelove posted:OK so my understanding of the situation is this: The National Assembly (basically Parliament/Congress) is the only branch of government left that was democratically elected. They voted that their leader, Juan Guaido (whose position is similar to Speaker of the House) to be the new interim president, as Maduro's "re-election" was rigged and he has no claim to legitimacy in democratic terms. While the US and other governments have denied Maduro's legitimacy prior to today's events, Guaido was already the head of the National Assembly and he was voted into position of interim president before anyone outside of the country recognized him. It's worth noting that Maduro illegally created and held sham elections for a rival Legislature that he illegally considers to override the actual Legislature.
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Jan 23, 2019 20:25
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freeasinbeer posted:Just because tankies will bring it up, he only formally announced he was taking the interim presidency today, if I am remembering correctly Brazil’s new right wing rear end in a top hat president recognized him a few days ago. Yes Bolsonaro did release some kind of statement saying Brazil recognized him as the legitimate government even before he himself declared he was the legitimate government. If he succeeds here he's supposed to start organizing new elections basically immediately, so if that doesn't happen then I guess we can have a discussion of how much better off the poor were eating out of the garbage under Maduro than they were doing it under Guaido.
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Jan 23, 2019 20:26
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Furia posted:I guess poor people should loving starve then There are options outside of "maduro starves the poor" and "venezuela must be run by a regime backed by impolite fascists like trump and bolsonaro," such as western countries letting venezuela use its own money to buy food and medicine: https://twitter.com/fcn_84/status/1087482013114863616?s=20
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Jan 23, 2019 20:27
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Canada has also recognized Guaido, so I'm sure we'll be hearing about Trudeau's fascist agenda for the hemisphere soon.
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Jan 23, 2019 20:28
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So, what happens now, anyway? I dont suppose Maduro will just accept that and leave
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Jan 23, 2019 20:30
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Given the US’ track record in Latin America and that we are led by Trump and supporting the new fascist government in Brazil, I’m inclined to not co-sign what the Trump Administration is doing here. Not when the main architects of Trump’s foreign policy are Bolton and Miller.
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Jan 23, 2019 20:31
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Lightning Knight posted:Given the US’ track record in Latin America and that we are led by Trump and supporting the new fascist government in Brazil, I’m inclined to not co-sign what the Trump Administration is doing here. Not when the main architects of Trump’s foreign policy are Bolton and Miller. Imagine if Nancy Pelosi declared Trump illegitimate and China/Russia moved immediately to recognize the new interim government of the United States as the only legitimate one on twitter. Elias_Maluco posted:So, what happens now, anyway? I dont suppose Maduro will just accept that and leave https://twitter.com/telesurenglish/status/1088144777336504324
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Jan 23, 2019 20:33
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Elias_Maluco posted:So, what happens now, anyway? I dont suppose Maduro will just accept that and leave Now we find out if anyone in the Venezuelan military gives a poo poo what other countries in the hemisphere think and stops backing Maduro's dictatorship. People are talking about how this risks military dictatorship, but Maduro already brought the military into his regime, so the country's already living under a military dictatorship--the question is just if the military is open to changing that and allowing for some possibility of elections going forward.
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Jan 23, 2019 20:35
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I keep trying to get people from CSPAM to come here but they keep saying that all the posters here are poor hating aristocrats.
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Jan 23, 2019 20:36
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Elias_Maluco posted:So, what happens now, anyway? I dont suppose Maduro will just accept that and leave Thread consensus is that he is in the former mall turned into a political prison for the secret police by nightfall.
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Jan 23, 2019 20:36
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Sinteres posted:Now we find out if anyone in the Venezuelan military gives a poo poo what other countries in the hemisphere think and stops backing Maduro's dictatorship. People are talking about how this risks military dictatorship, but Maduro already brought the military into his regime, so the country's already living under a military dictatorship--the question is just if the military is open to changing that and allowing for some possibility of elections going forward. So I guess it boils down to how much control of the military Maduro still has
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Jan 23, 2019 20:36
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Elias_Maluco posted:So, what happens now, anyway? I dont suppose Maduro will just accept that and leave The next hours are crucial. If the gov't wants to move against Guaido, it'll cause all kinds of unrest now that he's declared himself president. On the other hand, they don't want him running around attending rallies. This is an unprecedented situation and, as someone earlier said, "seriouser than normal". It's hard to say what's going to happen more than usual.
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Jan 23, 2019 20:37
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:There are options outside of "maduro starves the poor" and "venezuela must be run by a regime backed by impolite fascists like trump and bolsonaro," such as western countries letting venezuela use its own money to buy food and medicine: What a childish false dichotomy. Maybe Maduro shouldn't have let billions upon billions be embezzled by his entire government to overseas accounts in the first place? Perhaps, he shouldn't have become a right wing military dictator who looted his entire country? Just a thought, I realize it chafes against your love of crushing the proletariat. Lightning Knight posted:Given the US’ track record in Latin America and that we are led by Trump and supporting the new fascist government in Brazil, I’m inclined to not co-sign what the Trump Administration is doing here. Not when the main architects of Trump’s foreign policy are Bolton and Miller. You really don't seem well read on this, but it is in the provisions of the valid Hugo Chavez-era constitution that the legislature is empowered to choose who should be the interim executive when the executive violates laws on proper elections. Neither Trump nor Brazil's fascists invented these provisions. CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:Imagine if Nancy Pelosi declared Trump illegitimate and China/Russia moved immediately to recognize the new interim government of the United States as the only legitimate one on twitter. Do you understand that your comparison here only works if it was the US or Brazil that heavily supported Maduro before? You've really got to learn to think your bs through.
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Jan 23, 2019 20:39
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:Imagine if Nancy Pelosi declared Trump illegitimate and China/Russia moved immediately to recognize the new interim government of the United States as the only legitimate one on twitter. In case there's any confusion among people reading, that would be extremely bad.
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Jan 23, 2019 20:39
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Majorian posted:Is that supposed to be an argument in favor of Guaido? Because that would be extremely bad. No, it was a dumb analogy in favor of doing nothing.
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Jan 23, 2019 20:40
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I really don't think there's such a thing as a foreign intervention, despite the precedents. I don't think the US care enough. But in the slightest chance, I really hope they gently caress off and stay out of this. My best wishes to the Venezuelan people, because it seems like today is a day of fate.
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Jan 23, 2019 20:41
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Sinteres posted:No, it was a dumb analogy in favor of doing nothing. It seems to me that doing nothing is the least-bad option though - particularly given the Trump Administration's stated support for regime change in the country. U.S. involvement on any level will not make this situation better. e: And that includes recognizing Guaido as interim president. What a stupid move.
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Jan 23, 2019 20:42
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fishmech posted:You really don't seem well read on this, but it is in the provisions of the valid Hugo Chavez-era constitution that the legislature is empowered to choose who should be the interim executive when the executive violates laws on proper elections. Neither Trump nor Brazil's fascists invented these provisions. While that may be true, that doesn’t meant that they are acting in good faith or don’t have ulterior motives. There doesn’t seem to be an ideal endgame here that doesn’t result in bloodshed, and Trump meddling is unlikely to make things better. If anything he’s undermining the legitimacy of the opposition.
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Jan 23, 2019 20:42
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laffo as if Trump will even remember who Guiado is by dinnertime
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Jan 23, 2019 20:43
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This isn't the Trump thread. You don't need to evaluate everything in terms of the domestic politics of the United States.
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Jan 23, 2019 20:44
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Lightning Knight posted:While that may be true, that doesn’t meant that they are acting in good faith or don’t have ulterior motives. This. I can't imagine a better way to galvanize Maduro's supporters than to signal to them that Trump, Bolsonaro, and other fascists support the opposition.
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Jan 23, 2019 20:44
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Lightning Knight posted:Given the US’ track record in Latin America and that we are led by Trump and supporting the new fascist government in Brazil, I’m inclined to not co-sign what the Trump Administration is doing here. Not when the main architects of Trump’s foreign policy are Bolton and Miller. honestly. probably nothing. the Venezuelan people are out protesting in force and Maduro is a dead man walking at this point and now its just a matter of time until military says gently caress it and backs the other guy and shoots maduro in the head and or he gets dragged behind one of his buses or he flees to some other country. trump doesn't give a gently caress about Venezuela outside being a talking point. Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Jan 23, 2019 |
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Jan 23, 2019 20:45
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Discendo Vox posted:This isn't the Trump thread. You don't need to evaluate everything in terms of the domestic politics of the United States. The American government effectively just co-signed an attempted political coup. While you may wish to argue that they are justified in doing so, it is undeniable now that we have made ourselves involved.
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Jan 23, 2019 20:46
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