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Majorian posted:This is some pretty tortured logic. Saying that Trump shouldn't invade Venezuela is not some sort of microaggression. Yeah but apparently according to your line of bullshit there’s no alternative to Maduro without a Trump invasion, and things could always get worse, and yadda yadda You are literally one step removed from a republican yelling about free speech after getting told that “all lives matter” is a dumb loving thing to say in a safe space for BAME individuals but you do you. I can’t force you to change but it is my moral obligation to point out how loving horrible you are to the people you pretend to care about
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Jan 23, 2019 22:53
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https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1088177884055842816 lol
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Jan 23, 2019 22:53
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Majorian posted:Guys, we can't post in the bad Venezuela thread anymore. I'm getting the impression you might be some sorta rear end in a top hat.
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Jan 23, 2019 22:53
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Grouchio posted:Hold on hold on; is there officially a coup/civil war going on now? Is the US intervening officially? No, but people itt would like you to believe that is the only possibility
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Jan 23, 2019 22:53
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i was under the impression that mexico had not chosen to weigh in yet has that changed edit: kind of, i guess https://www.france24.com/en/20190123-mexico-backs-maduro-venezuela-president-amid-crisis quote:"We recognize the authorities elected in accordance with the Venezuelan constitution," Jesus Ramirez, spokesman for Mexican President Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador, told AFP. Berke Negri fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Jan 23, 2019 |
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Jan 23, 2019 22:56
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Berke Negri posted:i was under the impression that mexico had not chosen to weigh in yet has that changed They said they aren't changing their position for the time being, which by default means they're still recognizing Maduro.
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Jan 23, 2019 22:58
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I hope venezuelans make some good of all this poo poo finally. Maduro needs to loving go.Furia posted:No, but people itt would like you to believe that is the only possibility I mean, US is sticking their lovely nose in everything everywhere around the world, venezuela's not gonna be an exception here. Berke Negri posted:i was under the impression that mexico had not chosen to weigh in yet has that changed https://twitter.com/Thomas_Sorlie/status/1088159319911215106
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Jan 23, 2019 22:58
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Furia posted:No, but people itt would like you to believe that is the only possibility Oh yeah, Pence and Rubio are just totally coincidentally agitating publicly for more violence. What kind of idiot thinks that is at all recognizable to past incidents where it turned out that intervention was exactly what the US had been doing the whole time?
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Jan 23, 2019 22:58
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Well it does looks like Maduro won't be stepping down on his own and the military still supports him So it does seems it is either Maduro staying, some sort of external intervention, or civil war
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Jan 23, 2019 23:00
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420 Gank Mid posted:Oh yeah, Pence and Rubio are just totally coincidentally agitating publicly for more violence. What kind of idiot thinks that is at all recognizable to past incidents where it turned out that intervention was exactly what the US had been doing the whole time? Well we've heard extensive details in this thread about why life is utter poo poo in Venezuela, which are really obvious reasons why people there would protest and/or oppose the Maduro government...but the CIA did things so clearly all that suffering is in fact the most ingenious camoflauge for an influence op. Which only I, Valiant Proletarian Warrior of the Red Internet Basement Guards, can recognize. Remind me again how it is possible that the US' intelligence agencies are both utterly incompetent and also an all seeing all knowing force behind all events.
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Jan 23, 2019 23:05
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420 Gank Mid posted:Oh yeah, Pence and Rubio are just totally coincidentally agitating publicly for more violence. What kind of idiot thinks that is at all recognizable to past incidents where it turned out that intervention was exactly what the US had been doing the whole time? Rick Scott is calling on the U.S. to put Venezuela on the list of countries that sponsor terrorism.
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Jan 23, 2019 23:05
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The problem with this argument is that people keep asserting that a US-backed alternative (Or in some cases, any alternative) to Marudo would unquestionably be worse for the country, but seem to not really comprehend why the country is actively suffering. The core of Venezuela's problems is that while Chavez campaigned under a leftist banner and instituted some popular programs, he started the country down a brutal slide towards kleptocracy. Just look at the PDVSA, the state oil company: Created in the 1970s, for years it was basically the model of how a state-run industry should be managed—professional, efficient, and forward thinking, the company was internationally acclaimed and contributed to a system where the country's natural resources were transferred into national wealth. Under Chavez, however, professional oilmen who had spent their entire careers working for the company were forced out in favor of political appointees, who favored maximizing revenues at the expense of the long-term health of the company. Managers who disagreed were forced out, and after a massive strike in 2002 which resulted in mass firings, the company was effectively hollowed out of expertise and professionalism. What resulted was a long decline, where the company that had once served as the backbone of the nation's economy withered and began to break apart under deferred maintenance, inexperience, and continued political interference. And many of those dollars, instead of going towards social programs or to prepare for any eventual downturn in the international oil economy, they were instead diverted into the personal pockets of Chavez and his allies. Billions of dollars were stolen from the people of Venezuela in this fashion, and it was repeated across numerous sectors—and if an industry wasn't state-run, it would be nationalized, turned over to political allies, and drained of cash, all at the expense of the nation's people. Top this off with hideously awful economic policies such as price controls that render it functionally impossible to sell many basic goods, and you start to understand why the country's economy has fractured the way it has: It's not because of socialism or sanctions: It is because of the specific actions of the group of people currently controlling the levers of power in the Venezuelan state, who have in turn used their power to enrich themselves while rendering it impossible for them to be removed by normal political means. Is an Iraq-style military intervention the answer? God, no, and I don't want the CIA getting involved in a coup either. But it has to be recognized that the situation is absolutely desperate, and the number of ways it could get worse is incredibly short.
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Jan 23, 2019 23:09
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Solaris 2.0 posted:Hi Thread - just so I can educate myself and ask actual Venezuelans - the protests happening right now are organic right? Civil War is terrible. Nobody is going to trumpet interventionism there. That said, Maduro's end days likely begin now.
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Jan 23, 2019 23:09
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:Well we've heard extensive details in this thread about why life is utter poo poo in Venezuela, which are really obvious reasons why people there would protest and/or oppose the Maduro government...but the CIA did things so clearly all that suffering is in fact the most ingenious camoflauge for an influence op. Which only I, Valiant Proletarian Warrior of the Red Internet Basement Guards, can recognize. Their utter incompetence is the problem. The CIA influences countries, gently caress it up and make the situation worse than anyone wanted.
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Jan 23, 2019 23:11
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:Remind me again how it is possible that the US' intelligence agencies are both utterly incompetent and also an all seeing all knowing force behind all events. Those two things are absolutely not mutually exclusive. If they were, someone as incompetent as maduro wouldn't be in charge either. e: Acebuckeye13 posted:the number of ways it could get worse is incredibly short. imagine typing out this sentence in a post 2016 world, lmfao
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Jan 23, 2019 23:12
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:Well we've heard extensive details in this thread about why life is utter poo poo in Venezuela, which are really obvious reasons why people there would protest and/or oppose the Maduro government...but the CIA did things so clearly all that suffering is in fact the most ingenious camoflauge for an influence op. Which only I, Valiant Proletarian Warrior of the Red Internet Basement Guards, can recognize. the idea that a US backed coup would increase the quality of life for Venezuelans is not supported by the historical record of US backed coups
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Jan 23, 2019 23:14
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420 Gank Mid posted:the idea that a US backed coup would increase the quality of life for Venezuelans is not supported by the historical record of US backed coups Good thing nobody in this thread wants a US backed coup
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Jan 23, 2019 23:15
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Furia posted:Good thing nobody in this thread wants a US backed coup Majorian posted:Rick Scott is calling on the U.S. to put Venezuela on the list of countries that sponsor terrorism. NOT A COUP! REPEAT! THERE IS NO U.S. INTERVENTION GOING ON ATM
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Jan 23, 2019 23:16
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420 Gank Mid posted:NOT A COUP! REPEAT! THERE IS NO U.S. INTERVENTION GOING ON ATM
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Jan 23, 2019 23:18
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420 Gank Mid posted:NOT A COUP! REPEAT! THERE IS NO U.S. INTERVENTION GOING ON ATM Rick Scott posts in this thread? Of course, not going into the fact that “coup” has a meaning e: beaten
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Jan 23, 2019 23:18
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420 Gank Mid posted:NOT A COUP! REPEAT! THERE IS NO U.S. INTERVENTION GOING ON ATM ... do you know what a coup actually is
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Jan 23, 2019 23:20
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It's just so weird how all these high level US officials all happen to say the same things at the same times. It's wild how some irresponsible posters draw conclusions about some kind of 'organized plot' from there.
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Jan 23, 2019 23:21
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420 Gank Mid posted:NOT A COUP! REPEAT! THERE IS NO U.S. INTERVENTION GOING ON ATM Uh yeah, there isn't a coup or a US intervention happening? What the hell is with you. Or are you talking about some QANON nonsense.
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Jan 23, 2019 23:21
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420 Gank Mid posted:It's just so weird how all these high level US officials all happen to say the same things at the same times. It's wild how some irresponsible posters draw conclusions about some kind of 'organized plot' from there. It’s also wild how you conclude we want this but hey that’s life I guess. When did the US turn into such a centralised government that three (3!) people are all that’s needed to mobilise the entire nation?
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Jan 23, 2019 23:22
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420 Gank Mid posted:It's just so weird how all these high level US officials all happen to say the same things at the same times. It's wild how some irresponsible posters draw conclusions about some kind of 'organized plot' from there. On the other hand the Trump administration couldn't organize a fart in a bean factory. I mean the idea of this guy declaring himself interim president has been pretty visible since Bolsonaro's statement at the least and the right in the US love to poo poo all over Venezuela so of course some of them decided to prepare statements just in case.
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Jan 23, 2019 23:22
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Furia posted:e: beaten
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Jan 23, 2019 23:22
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... is english not your first language? Whatever let me ask a stupid question: why didn't the PSUV just nationalize food production before poo poo got this bad?
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Jan 23, 2019 23:22
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In a system without fair elections, isn't any kind of regime change a coup? 
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Jan 23, 2019 23:23
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Notice, Trump hasn't done or said anything to hint at an upcoming military intervention. What he's doing is fairly in line with what is expected, you know a country is ran by a dictator, you recognize the democratically elected parties as legitimate and the dictator as illegitimate. This is necessary for us to do anything internally, if Juan Guaido doesn't have the backing of the international community his actions become far too easy for Maduro to declare void. Fending off on our own has been what we've been doing for the last couple of years and it has really not worked at all, for Guaido to have a leg to stand on, he needs to have the backing of most major democracies.
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Jan 23, 2019 23:23
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Elias_Maluco posted:Well it does looks like Maduro won't be stepping down on his own and the military still supports him you need two opposing armed forces for there to be a civil war. we got one pro-government army. where’s the other side
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Jan 23, 2019 23:24
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fnox posted:Notice, Trump hasn't done or said anything to hint at an upcoming military intervention. Except for repeatedly saying that he wants to invade.
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Jan 23, 2019 23:24
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I did a Podcast with a goin on Venezuela earlier and it was very insightful. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pk5SxqqSRC4
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Jan 23, 2019 23:32
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I fully believe that Trump said and meant that in the moment, but I do have to question whether he'd actually have the stones to follow through. He is a notorious blowhard and a coward at heart, after all, and I feel like the prospect of actively invading a country and being forced to own the disaster it might become might be a bit too unpalatable for him. But, predicting what the Trump administration is going to do is tricky, so we'll see. For the time being, working to put international pressure on the Maduro regime to step down peacefully is a good thing, and while I absolutely understand searching for ulterior motives I'd prefer people didn't decry the entire exercise just because Trump might be plotting a coup.* *Which if he was we'd know a month ahead of time anyway because you and I both know Trump wouldn't be able to resist blabbing about it for more than ten goddamn minutes.
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Jan 23, 2019 23:34
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Acebuckeye13 posted:I fully believe that Trump said and meant that in the moment, but I do have to question whether he'd actually have the stones to follow through. He is a notorious blowhard and a coward at heart, after all, and I feel like the prospect of actively invading a country and being forced to own the disaster it might become might be a bit too unpalatable for him. But, predicting what the Trump administration is going to do is tricky, so we'll see. For the time being, working to put international pressure on the Maduro regime to step down peacefully is a good thing, and while I absolutely understand searching for ulterior motives I'd prefer people didn't decry the entire exercise just because Trump might be plotting a coup.*  , but again, if you want the opposition to win in this standoff, I don't think Trump's (or Bolsonaro's) endorsement is all that helpful.
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Jan 23, 2019 23:37
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Majorian posted:
Nice moaning about decorum, but it's really irrelevant. The opposition already gets painted as being tied to those all day every day for years upon years. And it would frankly be profoundly bizarre for the two largest countries in the hemisphere to conspicuously refuse to comment when one is Venezuela's primary trading partner and the other is holding onto nearing a million Venezuelans in refugee camps.
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Jan 23, 2019 23:42
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Der Waffle Mous posted:... is english not your first language? They did nationalize most of our food industry. That's why it went so badly.
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Jan 23, 2019 23:43
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Norton the First posted:In a system without fair elections, isn't any kind of regime change a coup? Maduro really didn't leave a lot of alternative avenues for his Presidency to end.
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Jan 23, 2019 23:48
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Majorian posted:
Honestly at this point, they're probably in "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference to the devil in the House of Commons" territory.
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Jan 23, 2019 23:48
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The reason why Venezuelans in this thread are so mad is because the Americans refuse to compromise on the stance that the PSUV has hosed up the country and mostly due to their own choices.
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Jan 23, 2019 23:50
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Techbros: We just make the platform! We are neutral in all aspects of speech! Also techbros: https://twitter.com/BreakingNLive/status/1088188122289061888?s=19
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Jan 23, 2019 23:50
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