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420 Gank Mid posted:https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-gold/venezuela-gold-holdings-in-bank-of-england-soar-on-deutsche-deal-sources-idUKKCN1PF1Z8 What about those sanctions, though? You weren't just making that stuff up, were you?
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Jan 24, 2019 00:30
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fnox posted:I've said again and again the problem with your "anti-imperialist argument" is that it involves the complete denial that there is a problem with Maduro running the country, that there is a crisis at all that must be solved. You don't have a loving solution for us, why do we need to listen to you? Maduro is awful. Any US backed replacement government will be worse. As a reference: Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya
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Jan 24, 2019 00:30
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This whole misuse of "coup" thing would be hilarious if it weren't in relation to such breathtaking human suffering.
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Jan 24, 2019 00:30
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uninterrupted posted:Saddam killed more than a million people and used chemical weapons against his own people. He’s objectively worse than Maduro. I don't disagree here at all, but the only reasons for that is maduro's regime is too incompetent to pull it off. Instead, they just made it impossible for venezuelans to get food, which will in enough time have the same effect, though.
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Jan 24, 2019 00:32
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Oh, so the Venezuelan farmer who posts here is rich caps lock? The guy who had to give up one of his cows or a mob would have hacked him up? uninterrupted posted:Saddam killed more than a million people and used chemical weapons against his own people. He’s objectively worse than Maduro. Maduro is actively ignoring the medical plight of his people and is actively denying medical aid to the sick and needy, hes just as bad.
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Jan 24, 2019 00:32
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uninterrupted posted:Maduro is awful. Any US backed replacement government will be worse. As a reference: Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya Saddam killed a million people, are you saying Iraq was better off with him in charge?
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Jan 24, 2019 00:33
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“You think everyone who disgarees with you is a tankie.  Now let me tell you why anyone with actual experience of the country in question who disagrees with me can be safely ignored...”
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Jan 24, 2019 00:33
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Giggle Goose posted:This whole misuse of "coup" thing would be hilarious if it weren't in relation to such breathtaking human suffering. It’s a coup though. An unelected person has declared himself president and directed rebel military soldiers to overthrow the government. Like, you can just say you support an illegal coup to overthrow maduro guys. I mean, so so a bunch of other countries. At least use words correctly.
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Jan 24, 2019 00:33
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fnox posted:Saddam killed a million people, are you saying Iraq was better off with him in charge? It absolutely was, op.
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Jan 24, 2019 00:33
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fnox posted:Saddam killed a million people, are you saying Iraq was better off with him in charge? The whole region was lmao
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Jan 24, 2019 00:34
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Repostin': was a bit less an effortpost than I remembered but that's fine
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Jan 24, 2019 00:34
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fnox posted:Iraq was better off with him in charge?
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Jan 24, 2019 00:34
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fnox posted:Saddam killed a million people, are you saying Iraq was better off with him in charge? Yes. Obviously. Have you heard of anything that happened after the invasion?
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Jan 24, 2019 00:34
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I really want to know why people are arguing over this though. Literally nobody in here wants an intervention, so various posters are building random strawmen to attack instead?
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Jan 24, 2019 00:35
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I don’t want an intervention I just want to lap up regurgitated Charlie Kirk talking points
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Jan 24, 2019 00:36
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uninterrupted posted:It’s a coup though. An unelected person has declared himself president and directed rebel military soldiers to overthrow the government. So I am guessing then that you are completely ignorant of the constitutional reasons as to why Guaidó has declared himself the president and why so many states are backing up that claim? What are your thoughts on Maduro's seizure of the levers of power in Venezuela? The jailing of the opposition? The dissolution of the legislature?
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Jan 24, 2019 00:38
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If we're going to make comparisons to Iraq, let's ask: would Saddam be a better leader for Venezuela than Maduro? I'm not certain but I think it's possible. I doubt he'd be significantly worse.
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Jan 24, 2019 00:39
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Truga posted:I really want to know why people are arguing over this though. Literally nobody in here wants an intervention, so various posters are building random strawmen to attack instead? It seems as though many people in this thread are heavily invested in either or both of A) Denying the role of historically imperialist powers like the USA/UK in aggravating conditions in Venezuela and gearing up for soft or direct intervention B) Justifying the need for intervention in a manner remarkably similar to what happened in the early 2000's with Iraq
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Jan 24, 2019 00:39
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fnox posted:Saddam killed a million people, are you saying Iraq was better off with him in charge? Ah yeah, that’s the good stuff. Mainline that straight into my veins.
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Jan 24, 2019 00:40
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uninterrupted posted:It’s a coup though. An unelected person has declared himself president and directed rebel military soldiers to overthrow the government. Well duh, maduro is unelected since he made the last election such a fraud that according to the Venezuelan constitution, the opposition leader is president. No one acknowledges the legitimacy of the last election because there was so much shady poo poo going on that even the makers of the voting machines used complained!
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Jan 24, 2019 00:40
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uninterrupted posted:It’s a coup though. An unelected person has declared himself president and directed rebel military soldiers to overthrow the government. The Venezuelan constitution actually does seem to have a provision wherein this is the proper and legal recourse in the event there is not a legitimate result for a presidential election (the first part, not the rebel military soldier overthrow part). But since the current government is a military dictatorship running under the fig leaf of its previous constitution, that's doomed to failure as long as the military supports Maduro.
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Jan 24, 2019 00:40
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Please tell me more about your fight for the poor, wealthy suburban US resident Pevin Stan
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Jan 24, 2019 00:40
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Giggle Goose posted:So I am guessing then that you are completely ignorant of the constitutional reasons as to why Guaidó has declared himself the president and why so many states are backing up that claim? Yeah, I read up on it and it’s a ridiculous argument that wouldn’t hold up anywhere the US wasn’t trying to flip over. It’s the equivalent of saying, “China says trump wasn’t legitimately elected, Nancy Pelosi is president now!”
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Jan 24, 2019 00:40
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Truga posted:I really want to know why people are arguing over this though. Literally nobody in here wants an intervention, so various posters are building random strawmen to attack instead? Until yesterday this day consisted of some Venezuelan goons (most of whom literally had to leave Venezuela as refugees) and various others who'd been following the situation in Venezuela for the past few years, most of whom agreed that Maduro is a lovely authoritarian kleptocrat actively making the situation worse because that's the God's honest truth of the matter. Now a bunch of people are kramering into this thread shouting Maduro-endorsed conspiracy theories about how everything is the CIA and America's fault despite the mountains of previous evidence to the contrary.
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Jan 24, 2019 00:40
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420 Gank Mid posted:It seems as though many people in this thread are heavily invested in either or both of Whereas you are heavily invested in A) Making poo poo up about how it's the US that's to blame for people starving in Venezuela. Seriously, do you have no sense of self-awareness?
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Jan 24, 2019 00:42
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gently caress me I didn't know Saddam apologists actually existed, I don't know how in your head someone can kill a million people and still be fit to rule, but I guess I now know the people that I'm dealing with. Just spare me the bullshit of you caring about the lives of anybody abroad with that mentality. In any case, like I said, military intervention is not necessary, and extremely unlikely to occur, which is why it's not even remotely comparable. Just help out the guys who want to change things, give them support, they'll handle the rest.
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Jan 24, 2019 00:43
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Where are all the Venezuelan goons who support the PSUV? There are Brazilian, Chilean, Bolivian, and Peruvian goons who are left wing. Where are the Venezuelan leftist goons?
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Jan 24, 2019 00:43
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uninterrupted posted:Yeah, I read up on it and it’s a ridiculous argument that wouldn’t hold up anywhere the US wasn’t trying to flip over. Wait wait how is it ridiculous? Words have meaning and constitutional law exists for a reason. Also, you failed to comment on the other questions I asked. What about the jailing of dissidents? The legislature? To add one more, the stolen election?
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Jan 24, 2019 00:44
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punk rebel ecks posted:Where are all the Venezuelan goons who support the PSUV? There are Brazilian, Chilean, Bolivian, and Peruvian goons who are left wing. Where are the Venezuelan leftist goons? Leftist Venezuelan goons don't support Maduro, that's where they are.
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Jan 24, 2019 00:44
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fnox posted:gently caress me I didn't know Saddam apologists actually existed, I don't know how in your head someone can kill a million people and still be fit to rule, but I guess I now know the people that I'm dealing with. Just spare me the bullshit of you caring about the lives of anybody abroad with that mentality. You are trapping yourself, even though Saddam was poo poo, the entire region spun into chaos due to the American intervention. The Maduro supporters ITT are using that as an example of why things will get worse I'd Maduro leaves, while meanwhile they ignore other statements made by you. The correct answer to give was just to laugh at the attempt of equivalency and accuse them of dodging your questions.
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Jan 24, 2019 00:45
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420 Gank Mid posted:It seems as though many people in this thread are heavily invested in either or both of Norton the First posted:Whereas you are heavily invested in Honestly I could not write satire this on the nose if I tried haha
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Jan 24, 2019 00:45
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Truga posted:Literally nobody in here wants an intervention, so various posters are building random strawmen to attack instead? fnox posted:We’re having to rely on Trump of all loving people to get anything done, because nobody on the left wants to help. fnox posted:Us Venezuelans in this thread want other countries to interfere. Lawman 0 posted:I honestly don't really see a path forward to solving this crisis without UN intervention and peacekeepers flooding the country. fnox posted:Your country is not loving involved. It should though, like all other nations in the OAS, because the Venezuelan people can't fight a dictatorship that is willing to openly murder them on their own. GlyphGryph posted:Don't you believe in international solidarity? Should the laborers of the US not feel compelled to reach out in brotherhood and offer their assistance to the Venezuelan proletariat being crushed under the boot of their wealthy oligarchs? Pharohman777 posted:Even if the opposition was supported by imperialist intrests, it would still be better than maduros government. ugh its Troika posted:Still waiting for tankies to explain how a US puppet government would be any worse than the one Venezuela has now. fnox posted:Maduro is worse than Pinochet by any metric. loving, please, find me one thing that Maduro has done right, one. Ghost of Mussolini posted:I think it's unfair that Venezuelans get to disappear people and literally have drug gangs turned government hit squads shoot at people on video and it's fine but when we throw people from planes into the South Atlantic it's frowned upon.
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Jan 24, 2019 00:45
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uninterrupted posted:It’s a coup though. An unelected person has declared himself president and directed rebel military soldiers to overthrow the government. Ok, so this is where things get tricky. Basically, everyone agrees the last presidential elections in Venezuela were rigged. The government barred most opposition parties from running except for a handpicked couple, used every trick in the book to rig the game in their favor and even then, they probably inflated the vote count just for kicks. They've been rigging election results ever since the Constituent Assembly vote in 2017 when even the freaking company that provided the machines said "Hey, these results are bogus" (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...y-idUSKBN1AI1KZ). So what happens when a party that controls almost the whole state rigs a presidential election? We don't know because that's uncharted territory. However, the Venezuelan constitution explains that should the president be unable to assume his role, the person at the head of the National Assembly (Guaido) in his case, will assume that role and call for new elections. Why is this whole mess happening now? Because the new presidential term kicked off on January 10th and since Maduro's election was rigged, the National Assembly said "Not gonna happen, buddy. Article 233 tells us that Guaido needs to step in and call for new elections". Why is this messy? Because article 233 wasn't written with the idea that someone (Maduro, in this case) would try to usurp the presidency. However, the National Assembly is basically the only Venezuelan institution that came to power under legitimate elections, even if the government has tried to strip them of all competencies. So is this a coup? Arguably, Maduro stole a second term using rigged elections. The Chavista government has used every trick in the book to block the way for a peaceful transition, all the while looting the country. This poo poo needs to change and fast, so while this interpretation of the Venezuelan constitution is spotty, at best, it's also the best chance to overthrow a government that has no qualms letting its population starve and die due to lack of food and medicine. Am I happy about the role the US is playing in this? gently caress, no. I fundamentally hate Trump as a human being and Bolsonaro's not too far behind. However, there isn't going to be a return to democracy in Venezuela without some external pressure. That's just the way it is, because Chavismo is too entrenched and not whiling to cede power without someone twisting its arm. Labradoodle fucked around with this message at 00:47 on Jan 24, 2019 |
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Jan 24, 2019 00:45
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uninterrupted posted:Yeah, I read up on it and it’s a ridiculous argument that wouldn’t hold up anywhere the US wasn’t trying to flip over. and china would be right, hillary was elected, but the system is rigged lmao Vincent Van Goatse posted:Until yesterday this day consisted of some Venezuelan goons (most of whom literally had to leave Venezuela as refugees) and various others who'd been following the situation in Venezuela for the past few years, most of whom agreed that Maduro is a lovely authoritarian kleptocrat actively making the situation worse because that's the God's honest truth of the matter. Now a bunch of people are kramering into this thread shouting Maduro-endorsed conspiracy theories about how everything is the CIA and America's fault despite the mountains of previous evidence to the contrary. yeah i'm one of those following the situation and my take on both sides is they're both incredibly naive. maduro is a shitlord that needs to go, thinking otherwise is naive. US is definitely going to extract something out of this, and i'll honestly be surprised if they're not one of the parties majorly involved and thinking otherwise is naive. fnox posted:gently caress me I didn't know Saddam apologists actually existed see, this is what i mean. make a strawman and attak it in lieu of actual arguments. who's defending saddam?
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Jan 24, 2019 00:45
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punk rebel ecks posted:Where are all the Venezuelan goons who support the PSUV? There are Brazilian, Chilean, Bolivian, and Peruvian goons who are left wing. Where are the Venezuelan leftist goons? conveniently too poor to own a computer.
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Jan 24, 2019 00:46
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uninterrupted posted:
that'd be nice
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Jan 24, 2019 00:46
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punk rebel ecks posted:Where are all the Venezuelan goons who support the PSUV? There are Brazilian, Chilean, Bolivian, and Peruvian goons who are left wing. Where are the Venezuelan leftist goons? There really isn't that many people left actually showing support for the PSUV, so instead we get white Americans pretending to be outraged. To be fair, the talking points would be the exact same, gross whataboutism with zero recognition as to the horrendous situation Maduro has created through sheer corruption. Der Waffle Mous posted:conveniently too poor to own a computer. lmao why would it be too expensive to afford a computer in a socialist paradise? what happened to the Canaimitas? Why are all their followers loving poor if the government is supposed to be helping them? The real explanation is that Venezuelans wouldn't organically stumble into this place, the ones who have did so a long time ago where you could justify dropping five bucks on a forum account, and not on your weekly supply of food. fnox fucked around with this message at 00:52 on Jan 24, 2019 |
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Jan 24, 2019 00:47
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Norton the First posted:Whereas you are heavily invested in Its pretty funny that Venezuela has nationalized and left to rot so many factories that its only lifeline left is a US oil refinery. I guess chavez was working for cia imperialists to weaken the country by the tankies logic, lol.
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Jan 24, 2019 00:47
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Der Waffle Mous posted:conveniently too poor to own a computer. But what about Brazilian, Bolivian, and Ecuadorian goons?
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Jan 24, 2019 00:48
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420 Gank Mid posted:Honestly I could not write satire this on the nose if I tried haha I mean, you're outright inventing facts, and you know it, because you don't even bother defending yourself. It should be really easy for you to point to the exact US sanctions that are causing Venezuelans to starve...were it true, at least. But you're not capable of operating in good faith.
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Jan 24, 2019 00:48
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