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So, would it be fair to call one the core economic problems Bain Capital-style nationalization?
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Jan 24, 2019 05:57
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zegermans posted:is this were we go to get 6ers for correct opinions? Because Maduro is the legitimate leader and you don't get to pretend an election doesn't count because you bailed out of one you were clearly going to lose badly The man literally imprisoned everyone who could run against him in the last election and then set up his own alternate legislature to rubber stamp that same election.
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Jan 24, 2019 05:58
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venezuela has problems(because of u.s sanctions and the elites) but I think people should take a look at those problems instead of declaring some random empty suit king of venezuela by right of donald trump
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Jan 24, 2019 05:59
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OddObserver posted:So, would it be fair to call one the core economic problems Bain Capital-style nationalization? Yes but its deeper than that. If they just looted national industries private or personal businesses could survive, they also ran subsidies that bankrupted private businesses then nationalized those failing businesses to do it again. Its like what Bain Capital could do what it does and control the price its competitors are allowed to charge.
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Jan 24, 2019 06:00
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AGGGGH BEES posted:The man literally imprisoned everyone who could run against him in the last election and then set up his own alternate legislature to rubber stamp that same election. and how is replacing him with someone worse going to help
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Jan 24, 2019 06:00
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zegermans posted:is this were we go to get 6ers for correct opinions? Because Maduro is the legitimate leader and you don't get to pretend an election doesn't count because you bailed out of one you were clearly going to lose badly The two biggest opposition parties didn't bail on the last Presidential election, they were banned. Then there were no reputable observers who were willing to certify the results. Further the election was convened by a process that pretty clearly violated the constitution, as it scheduled by the constitutional constituency which is supposed to only be convened by referendum, but it was instead convened by a decree of Maduro. The 2017 elections immediately proceeding the Presidential election were so tainted by fraud the company that operated the polling machines outright admitted it: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/08/02/541129956/venezuelan-poll-tampered-with-says-voting-system-company
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Jan 24, 2019 06:02
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this is like text book u.s regime change, first they bomb a place economically, then cite that as evidence that it fails to prop up their own business-friendly dictator if that fails they move on to step 2: bombing a place literally
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Jan 24, 2019 06:03
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zegermans posted:is this were we go to get 6ers for correct opinions? Because Maduro is the legitimate leader and you don't get to pretend an election doesn't count because you bailed out of one you were clearly going to lose badly You do remember those elections were hilariously rigged, right OddObserver posted:So, would it be fair to call one the core economic problems Bain Capital-style nationalization? I'd say the price controls are the bigger culprit, but the way businesses have been nationalized and turned into cash-generating machines for party hacks certainly hasn't helped. As an example, here's a look at what happened to the PDVSA.
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Jan 24, 2019 06:03
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zegermans posted:is this were we go to get 6ers for correct opinions? Because Maduro is the legitimate leader and you don't get to pretend an election doesn't count because you bailed out of one you were clearly going to lose badly Survey from February 2018 (just three months before election): 77% want a change in government, 58.4% say Maduro's presidency is "terrible", 16.6% say it's just "bad", Maduro approval rating at 17.6% Survey from April 2018 (one month before election): Main opponent Henri Falcon leading with 41.4% of intended voters to Maduro's 34.4% And "bail out" is a really funny way of spelling "the government banned me from running in the election because I was clearly the main contender"
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Jan 24, 2019 06:04
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Yinlock posted:venezuela has problems(because of u.s sanctions and the elites) but I think people should take a look at those problems instead of declaring some random empty suit king of venezuela by right of donald trump The sanctions aren't the reason Venezuela's economy is in the gutter by any stretch of the imagination. The sanctions basically only target the personal finances of the top members of the regime, and prevent US companies from buying Venezuelan debt.
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Jan 24, 2019 06:05
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Yinlock posted:this is like text book u.s regime change, first they bomb a place economically, then cite that as evidence that it fails to prop up their own business-friendly dictator Please explain which of the US sanctions on Venezuela are ruining it's economy. You can find them all handily listed right here. (spoiler alert: you won't be able to, because all of the sanctions are on individuals and not on anything Venezuela exports or imports)
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Jan 24, 2019 06:05
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Well we cant know for 100% certain that replacements will be better but we are certain the current regime is a slow moving humanitarian crisis of misery and death that strangles the future of Venezuela so the best thing is for the poor of Venezuela to do nothing so Maduro and his friends never face anything resemblibg justice in this life.
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Jan 24, 2019 06:06
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Yinlock posted:and how is replacing him with someone worse going to help The man has literally sold the country off to Goldman Sachs. . . What do you expect Guaidó to that could be worse? https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-goldman/amid-venezuela-default-goldman-receives-hunger-bond-payment-sources-idUSKBN1HH36H The neoliberals are inside the house!!!
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Jan 24, 2019 06:06
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Please please, he also sold it to China and Russia.
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Jan 24, 2019 06:07
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Yinlock posted:venezuela has problems(because of u.s sanctions and the elites) but I think people should take a look at those problems instead of declaring some random empty suit king of venezuela by right of donald trump Actually some rear end in a top hat is just what a shitheap needs to stink less badly, which is why I'm a D&D mod now and this post is the best way to inform everyone.
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Jan 24, 2019 06:07
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Squalid posted:The man has literally sold the country off to Goldman Sachs. . . What do you expect Guaidó to that could be worse? please refer to every other u.s backed regime change ever hint: it's always worse. every single time
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Jan 24, 2019 06:08
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Hey, Venezuealans, show's over. You have to stick with Maduro because Trump gave the tumbs up to your guy, and if the US supports him there's a possibility that he might be worse than the guy in charge of the party that has destroyed your country. Now go back home and starve, if you aren't robbed and murdered on the way.
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Jan 24, 2019 06:10
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AGGGGH BEES posted:Please explain which of the US sanctions on Venezuela are ruining it's economy. You can find them all handily listed right here. It's always funny when people keep throwing the sanctions talking point out there because it instantly exposes them as vacuous parrots of someone else's talking points. They've never even thought to ask what the sanctions actually DO. That they are to blame for Venezuela's problems is an article of faith.
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Jan 24, 2019 06:10
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AGGGGH BEES posted:Please explain which of the US sanctions on Venezuela are ruining it's economy. You can find them all handily listed right here. the usa has been backing Venezuelan destabilization efforts for ages the question isn't if maduro is 100% legit, the question is if it's worth the usa bursting in and waving their dick around and signs point to no
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Jan 24, 2019 06:11
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Squalid posted:It's always funny when people keep throwing the sanctions talking point out there because it instantly exposes them as vacuous parrots of someone else's talking points. They've never even thought to ask what the sanctions actually DO. That they are to blame for Venezuela's problems is an article of faith. These people are not arguing in good faith.
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Jan 24, 2019 06:11
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Yinlock posted:please refer to every other u.s backed regime change ever Glad we agree the US should not be involved in ousting Maduro who must be removed.
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Jan 24, 2019 06:12
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Squalid posted:The man has literally sold the country off to Goldman Sachs. . . What do you expect Guaidó to that could be worse? golly whatever nation hosts such a vulture firm that buys up so-called "hunger bonds" at 50% yields (!!!!!! gently caress!!! !!!!!) should feel ashamed of itself. Is it Luxembourg? No. Wait. The Greater Antilles.
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Jan 24, 2019 06:13
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Randarkman posted:Hey, Venezuealans, show's over. You have to stick with Maduro because Trump gave the tumbs up to your guy, and if the US supports him there's a possibility that he might be worse than the guy in charge of the party that has destroyed your country. Now go back home and starve, if you aren't robbed and murdered on the way. don't worry I'm sure a pro-corporate businessman will save you from the rich hoarding all the food seriously how are you guys falling for this exact scam again, did the last 4 pointless wars teach you nothing
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Jan 24, 2019 06:13
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Yinlock posted:the usa has been backing Venezuelan destabilization efforts for ages Please explain which of the US sanctions on Venezuela are ruining it's economy. You can find them all handily listed right here.
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Jan 24, 2019 06:13
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Or, wait, is your ire directed at the entire concept of sovereign finance? Or that capital is a thing and that capital markets the only prevailing way in which to acquire it? it's hazy but the point is: you're right to be mad about something about something.
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Jan 24, 2019 06:14
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Yinlock posted:don't worry I'm sure a pro-corporate businessman will save you from the rich hoarding all the food We're not falling for it. Now's the time to go back and starve. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 24, 2019 06:14
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Randarkman posted:We're not falling for it. Now's the time to go back and starve. hm yes clearly the only options are brutal cia regime change or starvation, you've nailed it bud or maybe the usa could stop treating latin america like it's military playground (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 24, 2019 06:15
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Yinlock posted:please refer to every other u.s backed regime change ever It was alright when they supported Jean-Bertrand Aristide's return to the Presidency of Haiti in 1994 Pity George Bush later coup him out of power
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Jan 24, 2019 06:17
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Yinlock posted:hm yes clearly the only options are brutal cia regime change or starvation, you've nailed it bud No one here wants the US to invade Venezuela. At most, some people have said that it's unlikely a US backed government would be worse than the one Venezuela already has.
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Jan 24, 2019 06:19
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Yinlock posted:the usa has been backing Venezuelan destabilization efforts for ages What are you really arguing right now? Nobody in this thread thinks that the CIA should dome Maduro or that the Navy should drop a couple Tomahawks on his house. There are people who feel that Maduro and his government are so bad that literally any replacement would be better, which, given Maduro's track record, is probably arguable. But those people aren't arguing for active regime change. And Venezuela's problems aren't due to sanctions or the rich 'hording food' (Which doesn't even make sense, how the gently caress are you supposed to horde milk). It's because of the economic policies of the PSUV directly enacted and enforced to enrich the party elite at the cost of the country as a whole. It's not about sanctions, it's not about socialism, it's about Maduro, his cronies, and his greed. e: oh whoops he's already gone
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Jan 24, 2019 06:20
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Squalid posted:It was alright when they supported Jean-Bertrand Aristide's return to the Presidency of Haiti in 1994 Yugoslavia was pretty good, Japan and Germany went about as well as you could hope, and results are mixed but so far on the whole positive if only because of how bad the starting point was with their interventions into the US south. Outside of that real lovely track record.
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Jan 24, 2019 06:23
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Barudak posted:Yugoslavia was pretty good, Japan and Germany went about as well as you could hope, and results are mixed but so far on the whole positive if only because of how bad the starting point was with their interventions into the US south. I wonder how different world history would be if the Dulles Brothers had gotten into a fatal car accident in 1951. Probably couldn't be much worse!
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Jan 24, 2019 06:26
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I am sure the US orchestrating anything would be a worse outcome since we're not even paying the people we'd usually be paying to orchestrate things for made up reasons and wont be for the indefinite future so Like 2/3 of the illegal coups office has probably been calling in sick to work for the last three weeks
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Jan 24, 2019 06:27
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zegermans posted:is this were we go to get 6ers for correct opinions? Because Maduro is the legitimate leader and you don't get to pretend an election doesn't count because you bailed out of one you were clearly going to lose badly You can talk about US propaganda all you want but posts like this are the result of propaganda and nothing else. In what universe was Maduro’s last election a sure loss for the opposition? He got elected on a one point difference in 2013, yet this time he got 1.5 million less votes than against an opponent that wasn’t even in the top 5 of opposition presidential candidates. Where were the real opponents? in loving jail. Can we just get you all to stop pretending you ever cared about this topic or even remotely read anything about it past whatever US media has been saying literally today?
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Jan 24, 2019 06:29
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Willie Tomg posted:Or, wait, is your ire directed at the entire concept of sovereign finance? Or that capital is a thing and that capital markets the only prevailing way in which to acquire it? it's hazy but the point is: you're right to be mad about something about something. My ire is directed at the people who took a country with immense wealth and who have systematically immiserated its people. Why is Venezuela reduced to begging for scraps at the feet of vulture capital? Where did all the money go? The truth is Venezuela's leadership squandered everything and when there was no money left they mortgaged the oil company. Some of the money was spent on social programs, but a lot was stolen and a lot was just wasted on idiotic schemes. Given the choice of cutting back on corruption or their stupid and wasteful policies and selling off Venezuela's future Maduro chose the later. His gift to the future is a mountain of debt and the destruction of every asset that could have been used to pay it off.
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Jan 24, 2019 06:31
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Acebuckeye13 posted:I wonder how different world history would be if the Dulles Brothers had gotten into a fatal car accident in 1951. Yes but then i wake up in a cold sweat to the phrase President Henry Kissinger
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Jan 24, 2019 06:34
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Barudak posted:Yes but then i wake up in a cold sweat to the phrase President Henry Kissinger fortunately the only law even he couldn't break to make happen
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Jan 24, 2019 06:34
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fnox posted:You can talk about US propaganda all you want but posts like this are the result of propaganda and nothing else. In what universe was Maduro’s last election a sure loss for the opposition? He got elected on a one point difference in 2013, yet this time he got 1.5 million less votes than against an opponent that wasn’t even in the top 5 of opposition presidential candidates. Where were the real opponents? in loving jail. A sure loss, then. quote:Can we just get you all to stop pretending you ever cared about this topic or even remotely read anything about it past whatever US media has been saying literally today? loving sue us for expressing interest when all of us receive push notifications this morning that the silent majority of Venezuela wanted the USA to invade it a month ago. welcome to the stupid motherfucking american consent-manufacturing process, if it all goes according to plan you can expect this bullshit to keep going for another 30-40 years.
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Jan 24, 2019 06:35
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Berke Negri posted:fortunately the only law even he couldn't break to make happen It's only a constitutional amendment away.
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Jan 24, 2019 06:36
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Squalid posted:My ire is directed at the people who took a country with immense wealth and who have systematically immiserated its people. Why is Venezuela reduced to begging for scraps at the feet of vulture capital? Where did all the money go? The truth is Venezuela's leadership squandered everything and when there was no money left they mortgaged the oil company. Some of the money was spent on social programs, but a lot was stolen and a lot was just wasted on idiotic schemes. Given the choice of cutting back on corruption or their stupid and wasteful policies and selling off Venezuela's future Maduro chose the later. His gift to the future is a mountain of debt and the destruction of every asset that could have been used to pay it off. The destruction of the PDVSA really can't be emphasized enough. As I said before, it was basically the gold standard of how you'd want a state-run company to run. With the proper management and investment, it could have helped to provide for Venezuela for generations to come. Instead, it's been strangled to the point that it may never recover, all because of the shortsightedness of Chavez and the PSUV.
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Jan 24, 2019 06:36
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