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A alot of the leftists (But not all) here and on twitter in general I consider to be the scum of the earth. For they are willing to share beds with Military Juntas, Totalitarian rulers and other various Strongmen as long as those Strongmen maintain a Facade of anti-americanism no matter how fake it might be. Just look at how many support Assad, despite Syria literally being a CIA blacksite where the agency used to send people to get tortured and killed. So long as the dictator shouts down with the west they are willing to give him a pass. This is not a two way choice. You can be aganist foreign intervention and be aganist totalitarian rulers Like Maduro.
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Jan 24, 2019 13:38
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https://twitter.com/LatuffCartoons/status/1088233422064103426 Goddamnit, Latuff. I like your stuff concerning Palestine, Bostonaro and etc but please open your eyes and stop being another tankie. 
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Jan 24, 2019 13:44
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Negrostrike posted:https://twitter.com/LatuffCartoons/status/1088233422064103426 Latuff has been a Tankie for quite a while now though he wasn't always like this. I remember his revolutionary cartoons that protesters used to carry in Tahrir Square in Egypt in 2011. He went from supporting young activists and protesters yearning for dignity and social equality to literally supporting Strongmen and other middle eastern autocrats.It was syria that broke his mind I think. He even drew a cartoon supporting Omar el Bashir against the protests raging against him right now in Sudan ( Which is receiving very few media coverage) which is just lol...
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Jan 24, 2019 13:48
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This thread sure went places. On the eve of the 22nd people came to distribute CLAP food packages escorted by the police. All of the products (lentils, rice, corn flour, sugar, and a liter of cooking oil) came from Turkey. Between Turkey providing food for the CLAP and the whole twitter thing who knows how much of Venezuela they own now.
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Jan 24, 2019 13:48
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Kavros posted:At best, you could say that Maduro has hosed over the Venezuelan people and infrastructure with such breathtaking greed and idiocy that US involvement could scarcely find ways to make things worse at this point. Hussein was way worse than Maduro. Remember how well liberating Iraq went for the people there, and also the entire region?
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Jan 24, 2019 13:51
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Are there any unbiased books on the history Venezuela that yall can recommend? I have a bunch of Venezuelan friends and they tell me how bad it is, but I want to learn more.
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Jan 24, 2019 13:57
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probably not, almost every source of information about venezuela is biased towards one side or the other, it's very hard to find something without a vested interest in either advocating for a regime change in the name of the infallible free market or protecting innocent babby maduro
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Jan 24, 2019 14:14
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RottenK posted:probably not, almost every source of information about venezuela is biased towards one side or the other, it's very hard to find something without a vested interest in either advocating for a regime change in the name of the infallible free market or protecting innocent babby maduro That’s not remotely true. Basically anything other than Venezuelanalysis and TeleSur will recognize that the Venezuelan government has made an absolute catastrophe out of its economy despite having all the means to fix it. Anything more to the left than like InfoWars will readily recognize that the opposition has been completely ineffective at doing anything against Maduro, despite having popular backing and international support. It’s not very hard to see that Maduro is a god awful ruler that Venezuelans everywhere want to see gone, but he has entrenched himself into his government. It’s also not hard to see that there’s several parties interested in the fate of Venezuela and are interested in influencing it, China, Russia and the US all have something to gain from this situation depending on which way it goes. Oh yeah, that’s been unsaid for a while, you guys are aware that the imperialist interests of China and Russia got dibs, right? Russia is about to snag 50% of PDVSAs US subsidiary, China has a lolhuge outstanding loan due in 2020 they can come collect whenever in assets. You think the vultures are only American?
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Jan 24, 2019 14:33
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It'd be swell if one could just oppose intervention without being being accused of supporting Madurofnox posted:Oh yeah, that’s been unsaid for a while, you guys are aware that the imperialist interests of China and Russia got dibs, right? Russia is about to snag 50% of PDVSAs US subsidiary, China has a lolhuge outstanding loan due in 2020 they can come collect whenever in assets. You think the vultures are only American? Not sure what news sources you follow but the shrieking about Chinese and Russian financial influence across the world, basically copying the US economic intervention structure abroad, is something that has been covered for at least the last 5 years in much of the US media across the ideological spectrum. Dreylad fucked around with this message at 14:36 on Jan 24, 2019 |
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Jan 24, 2019 14:33
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Berke Negri posted:i wonder if those US embassy workers are actually getting paid during all this Yes. The shutdowns generally don't impact that. Particularly anything related to consular as they're self funding. Dreylad posted:It'd be swell if one could just oppose intervention without being being accused of supporting Maduro This is the thread about Venezuela, the country whose government has been selling its oil industry at firesale prices to China and Russia while taking out massive loans. Hence people discussing China and Russia in relation to these activities in Venezuela rather than the US. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 14:50 on Jan 24, 2019 |
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Jan 24, 2019 14:38
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Dreylad posted:It'd be swell if one could just oppose intervention without being being accused of supporting Maduro It’d also be swell if when people see organic protests they didn’t shriek about Trump and the CIA But unfortunately this is not an ideal reality and I guess since I oppose Maduro it means I am ready and willing to cheerlead an invasion for some dumb loving reason
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Jan 24, 2019 14:38
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Negrostrike posted:https://twitter.com/LatuffCartoons/status/1088233422064103426 After that last photo of Maduro I feel like I need to A Good Cartoon this that not even the might of Uncle Sam can move his fat rear end.
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Jan 24, 2019 14:41
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Furia posted:It’d also be swell if when people see organic protests they didn’t shriek about Trump and the CIA what? who are you shadowboxing here?
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Jan 24, 2019 14:42
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Majorian posted:Dropping I'm glad you donated. And don't be fooled about any similarities you think you might see to Iraq. There are key differences. 1) There is nothing left to steal. Just a lot of hungry people and mango trees that have been picked bare. 2) The average American doesn't give two shits about Venezuela. Maduro has not been a cartoon villain for movies for the last decade. The early 00s had a popular song out called Bombs over Baghdad. If someone has written C-130s over Caracas, let me know. But it's going to be very hard to drum up popular support for attacking Venezuela. 3) W. Bush was committed to attacking Saddam. Trump cares in as far as he understands the issue, which is (pitifully) still even less than the jokers who came in here yesterday.
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Jan 24, 2019 14:45
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There's nothing left in Venezuela to steal except its reserves of coal, copper, gold, diamonds, bauxite, and oil.
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Jan 24, 2019 14:48
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Dreylad posted:what? who are you shadowboxing here? Not you, sorry if you took it the wrong way. But: Furia posted:It is impossible to point out Maduro is a rich wing dictator and reject US intervention. This is a science fact that this two positions are intrinsically linked THS posted:In a better world you could pretend like the two things aren’t going to be inextricably linked. I could not make this poo poo up honestly
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Jan 24, 2019 14:49
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Thanks for the answers everyone, I had a feeling that was the case. I feel like the overwhelming consensus from my friends is that Maduro has destroyed the country but what's going on isnt any better. Most of my leftist friends are very pro-Maduro but havent spent any time in Latin America and think only rich people hate him. I just wanted to be more well-informed when people tell me I love trump because I dont support Maduro.
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Jan 24, 2019 14:52
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Furia posted:Not you, sorry if you took it the wrong way. But: It's cool, I did, my bad. Honestly, it doesn't really matter. If you tend to stress that American intervention (beyond what it's already doing) instead of Maduro's badness, you're pro-Maduro. If you want to emphasize Maduro's litany of bad decisions and political policies, you must be pro-intervention. Same poo poo happened when discussing the Syrian civil war.
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Jan 24, 2019 14:54
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Dreylad posted:It's cool, I did, my bad. Honestly, it doesn't really matter. If you tend to stress that American intervention (beyond what it's already doing) instead of Maduro's badness, you're pro-Maduro. If you want to emphasize Maduro's litany of bad decisions and political policies, you must be pro-intervention. Same poo poo happened when discussing the Syrian civil war. This isn’t Syria. And saying military intervention is bad adds nothing to the thread if you do it in general (because of corse it is), if you do it under the heavy implication that poor people protesting because they are tired of seeing their loved ones die of fully preventable poo poo is a cia coup it’s outright damaging to progressive efforts. This is why I brought it up on my previous post. I’m not going to accept that the people who call us plantation owners because they disagree with us really are just asking questions about the legitimacy of wanting food and medicine
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Jan 24, 2019 14:59
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My experience with Venezuela is largely playing La Vida Boheme's "Radio Capital" a lot in Grand Theft Auto, so I'm also a dumb American opening this thread for the first time in months. I want to believe that Boots Riley is correct, as Sorry to Bother You is a great movie, but this is propaganda, right? https://twitter.com/BootsRiley/status/1088222731898744832?s=19 Is there some truth to the idea that Maduro's support breaks down along racial and class lines, and is related to discrimination along them? I don't believe for a second that he's a good dude, but it's hard being a left Twitter person and getting a straight read on things at the moment. Also, donating a few bucks to Caritas, too.
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Jan 24, 2019 15:00
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fnox posted:That’s not remotely true. Basically anything other than Venezuelanalysis and TeleSur will recognize that the Venezuelan government has made an absolute catastrophe out of its economy despite having all the means to fix it. Anything more to the left than like InfoWars will readily recognize that the opposition has been completely ineffective at doing anything against Maduro, despite having popular backing and international support. oh course he's an awful leader and the west should still stay the gently caress away because western intervention always makes things worse, and the same goes for russia and china and any other bogeyman you want to accuse the left of supporting, they will do just as much damage how many more iraqs and libyas do you need before you finally understand that imperialism destroys everything it touches no matter who does it and with what excuse
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Jan 24, 2019 15:02
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Furia posted:This isn’t Syria. And saying military intervention is bad adds nothing to the thread if you do it in general (because of corse it is), if you do it under the heavy implication that poor people protesting because they are tired of seeing their loved ones die of fully preventable poo poo is a cia coup it’s outright damaging to progressive efforts. Regardless of their intentions, people tend to do that because most people don't think about the class interests when it comes to the advocacy for foreign intervention. Just like Syria. The two countries might be different but the discourse around it is incredibly similar. It's uncanny.
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Jan 24, 2019 15:04
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RottenK posted:oh course he's an awful leader Who ITT actually disagrees with this and why?
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Jan 24, 2019 15:05
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Hugoon Chavez posted:I love how he goes "the US doesn't care about Venezuelans!" While not caring about Venezuelans himself. So you’re saying you want US intervention. That’s what that entire 2nd paragraph said.
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Jan 24, 2019 15:05
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RottenK posted:Hussein was way worse than Maduro. Remember how well liberating Iraq went for the people there, and also the entire region? Hussein was way more effective a cruel authoritarian leader than Maduro, and there was plenty of functionality in Iraq to plummet down from, relative to today's Venezuela under Maduro. Though, to be fair, American unilateral interventionism in Latin America is a great candidate for when you're finding creative new ways to make the Venezuelan situation worse.
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Jan 24, 2019 15:06
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uninterrupted posted:So you’re saying you want US intervention. That’s what that entire 2nd paragraph said. He didn't say that. Perhaps he means foreign aid and denying Maduro and the PSUV international legitimacy? Why is it always "military invasion" with you people? I guess living inside a self-serving superpower warps your perspective irrevocably or something?
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Jan 24, 2019 15:09
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:Who ITT actually disagrees with this and why? thankfully the people ITT seem to be sane enough, but i'm seeing a lot of liberals on social media going full war hawk over this and i guess i just wanted to vent because as much as I don't like your politics I kind of hoped that the majority of the center-left and moderate right aren't little kissingers, and my hope is being tested real hard right now 
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Jan 24, 2019 15:10
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:Why is it always "military invasion" with you people? I guess living inside a self-serving superpower warps your perspective irrevocably or something? You said military invasion, not me. Every single intervention the US has ever performed in Latin America has been to the benefit of the US and to the detriment of the other country.
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Jan 24, 2019 15:16
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:He didn't say that. Perhaps he means foreign aid and denying Maduro and the PSUV international legitimacy? He means “I should be able to access food without it being pure loving luck” because guess how easy it is to find food in Venezuela (hint: hope you don’t mind going hungry) AFancyQuestionMark posted:Why is it always "military invasion" with you people? The lady doth protest too much
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Jan 24, 2019 15:17
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Insanite posted:My experience with Venezuela is largely playing La Vida Boheme's "Radio Capital" a lot in Grand Theft Auto, so I'm also a dumb American opening this thread for the first time in months. At the least, there are proponents of the opposition who engage in racist violence, whether you choose to believe that this is the line of the opposition or the act of a minority taking advantage of chaos, such as those who participated in the public lynching of afro-Venezuelan Orlando Figuera.
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Jan 24, 2019 15:19
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I still don’t see how people are immediately jumping the gun and calling a military intervention inevitable. They’ve been saying it will happen for decades, it never has, matter of fact the US barely cares about what happens in Venezuela bar just that someone else replaces Maduro. There won’t be any planes over Caracas, there won’t be drone strikes or bombings, Maduro will either succumb to internal pressure, or simply arrest Guaido and send us back to square one, just further disgraced. One good thing about international pressure from Latin American democracies is that they’re also keeping America in check, probably because they know war will only make the refugee situation worse. Now, if Maduro starts massacring people out in the streets, then the situation changes. But I doubt he ever will, he’s too much of a pussy to do poo poo like that openly, other than the poor people he deemed “collateral damage” of his OLPs. CYBEReris posted:At the least, there are proponents of the opposition who engage in racist violence, whether you choose to believe that this is the line of the opposition or the act of a minority taking advantage of chaos, such as those who participated in the public lynching of afro-Venezuelan Orlando Figuera. Have you ever like, looked at a Venezuelan? They’re overwhelmingly not white. What the gently caress is an Afro-Venezuelan? What’s with Americans labeling people like that? fnox fucked around with this message at 15:29 on Jan 24, 2019 |
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Jan 24, 2019 15:22
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It's highly unlikely we live in the ideal world where Venezuelans spontaneously rise up, oust Maduro and hijack the US-backed right wing opposition, instate a dictatorship of the proletariat (or welfare capitalism, social democracy, whatever is your economic system of choice), and defend themselves against US-backed counterrevolution in one fell swoop. As most of the opposition supporters in this thread are starting revise their positions toward, you get a binary choice between US intervention to whatever degree the Trump/Bolsonaro administrations will go for (on behalf of the opposition) or you get the PSUV. This equivocal bullshit about opposing both simply facilitates US intervention, because those are the only two real centers of political power in the immediate future. I will gladly accept being proven wrong as to who really has power in Venezuela since disinterested portrayals of the situation are scarce.
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Jan 24, 2019 15:23
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does anyone in here think that us intervention wouldn't just be iraq/yemen II?
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Jan 24, 2019 15:31
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fnox posted:Have you ever like, looked at a Venezuelan? They’re overwhelmingly not white. What the gently caress is an Afro-Venezuelan? What’s with Americans labeling people like that? Not sure where to start with this one. Are you aware of Venezuela's history of and connection to the slave trade? Dreylad fucked around with this message at 15:34 on Jan 24, 2019 |
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Jan 24, 2019 15:31
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Stairmaster posted:does anyone in here think that us intervention wouldn't just be iraq/yemen II? No. Everyone unanimously agrees that is not a good idea. It is unknown what this has to do with poor people protesting because they are starving. Psyops apparently
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Jan 24, 2019 15:33
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fnox posted:Have you ever like, looked at a Venezuelan? They’re overwhelmingly not white. What the gently caress is an Afro-Venezuelan? What’s with Americans labeling people like that? It's uh, right in the name - Venezuelans whose descendants were brought there as slaves from Africa, primarily by white settlers. Catgirl Al Capone fucked around with this message at 15:37 on Jan 24, 2019 |
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Jan 24, 2019 15:34
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With the exception of CAPSLOCK and a few others, most people being accused of being "tankies" and denying venezuelans agency and whatnot are just saying "Maduro is bad, but whatever comes from an american intervention is going to be at least as bad" Which I agree, specially cause I see no way an intervention could force Maduro out unless we are talking about a military invasion or USA backing local resistance (defected soldiers, maybe?) etc. And if that happens, the chance we (Brazil) is gonna get involved is pretty high, so Im worried about that too
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Jan 24, 2019 15:38
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Bathtub Cheese posted:It's highly unlikely we live in the ideal world where Venezuelans spontaneously rise up, oust Maduro and hijack the US-backed right wing opposition, instate a dictatorship of the proletariat (or welfare capitalism, social democracy, whatever is your economic system of choice), and defend themselves against US-backed counterrevolution in one fell swoop. As most of the opposition supporters in this thread are starting revise their positions toward, you get a binary choice between US intervention to whatever degree the Trump/Bolsonaro administrations will go for (on behalf of the opposition) or you get the PSUV. This equivocal bullshit about opposing both simply facilitates US intervention, because those are the only two real centers of political power in the immediate future. I will gladly accept being proven wrong as to who really has power in Venezuela since disinterested portrayals of the situation are scarce. People have this deeply-entrenched idea the Venezuelan opposition is a conglomerate of right-wing parties. The vast majority of the parties are center-left, specially the two big ones, Accion Democratica and Voluntad Popular (both social-democratic). The only party that is arguably to the right is Vente Venezuela, led by Maria Corina Machado, who despite being fairly popular in the political arena, has never gotten a significant number of votes in a presidential election. Yes, the opposition has the backing of the US-government. However, calling them right-wing shows a lack of knowledge about on-the-ground politics in Venezuela. That's completely understandable since there's not a lot of information about individual Venezuelan parties abroad. In any case, I feel it's important to make this distinction because people keep trying to frame the issue as 'Maduro vs. the US-backed opposition oligarchs' when it's pretty evident that for a while now, it'd be more accurate to say 'The Venezuelan government vs. the majority of the country'.
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Jan 24, 2019 15:40
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Labradoodle posted:People have this deeply-entrenched idea the Venezuelan opposition is a conglomerate of right-wing parties. The vast majority of the parties are center-left, specially the two big ones, Accion Democratica and Voluntad Popular (both social-democratic). The only party that is arguably to the right is Vente Venezuela, led by Maria Corina Machado, who despite being fairly popular in the political arena, has never gotten a significant number of votes in a presidential election. Regardless of their stated views, they are glad to avail themselves of support from one of the chief sources of maldevelopment and political chaos in Latin America. Why should the US be trusted this time?
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Jan 24, 2019 15:43
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Elias_Maluco posted:With the exception of CAPSLOCK and a few others, most people being accused of being "tankies" and denying venezuelans agency and whatnot are just saying "Maduro is bad, but whatever comes from an american intervention is going to be at least as bad" Oh, is that why I got called a plantation owner because I had the audacity of suggesting poor people should have access to food and medicine, and should be able to have a dignified life? My apologies it turns out that the people most affected were arguing in the worst faith all along Like yeah military intervention is bad. Pretending this is a goddamn coup is loving bad too
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Jan 24, 2019 15:45
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