CYBEReris posted:

It's uh, right in the name - Venezuelans whose descendants were brought there as slaves from Africa, primarily by white settlers.

Bathtub Cheese posted:

Regardless of their stated views, they are glad to avail themselves of support from one of the chief sources of maldevelopment and political chaos in Latin America. Why should the US be trusted this time?

fnox posted:

I have not once in my life heard the term Afrovenezuelan being used to refer to absolutely anyone, not once in my entire time in Venezuela. You’re applying American race relations to Venezuela, that’s not how it works there. Almost every Venezuelan is a mutt, a mestizo, we don’t know our genetic make up and most of us don’t care. We just call people after where they’re from.

RottenK posted:

oh course he's an awful leader

and the west should still stay the gently caress away because western intervention always makes things worse, and the same goes for russia and china and any other bogeyman you want to accuse the left of supporting, they will do just as much damage

how many more iraqs and libyas do you need before you finally understand that imperialism destroys everything it touches no matter who does it and with what excuse

fnox posted:

Russia is about to snag 50% of PDVSAs US subsidiary

Bathtub Cheese posted:

Regardless of their stated views, they are glad to avail themselves of support from one of the chief sources of maldevelopment and political chaos in Latin America. Why should the US be trusted this time?

fnox posted:

I have not once in my life heard the term Afrovenezuelan being used to refer to absolutely anyone, not once in my entire time in Venezuela. You’re applying American race relations to Venezuela, that’s not how it works there. Almost every Venezuelan is a mutt, a mestizo, we don’t know our genetic make up and most of us don’t care. We just call people after where they’re from.

Insanite posted:

So you're saying that Venezuela is a race-blind society?

Furia posted:

Oh, is that why I got called a plantation owner because I had the audacity of suggesting poor people should have access to food and medicine, and should be able to have a dignified life? My apologies it turns out that the people most affected were arguing in the worst faith all along

Like yeah military intervention is bad. Pretending this is a goddamn coup is loving bad too

fnox posted:

I have not once in my life heard the term Afrovenezuelan being used to refer to absolutely anyone, not once in my entire time in Venezuela. You’re applying American race relations to Venezuela, that’s not how it works there. Almost every Venezuelan is a mutt, a mestizo, we don’t know our genetic make up and most of us don’t care. We just call people after where they’re from.

Insanite posted:

So you're saying that Venezuela is a race-blind society?

e: Not at all saying that it's appropriate to apply an American race relations lens to Venezuela. Just surprisng to see that claim applied to _anywhere._

Insanite posted:

So you're saying that Venezuela is a race-blind society?

e: Not at all saying that it's appropriate to apply an American race relations lens to Venezuela. Just surprisng to see that claim applied to _anywhere._

fnox posted:

I have not once in my life heard the term Afrovenezuelan being used to refer to absolutely anyone, not once in my entire time in Venezuela. You’re applying American race relations to Venezuela, that’s not how it works there. Almost every Venezuelan is a mutt, a mestizo, we don’t know our genetic make up and most of us don’t care. We just call people after where they’re from.

uninterrupted posted:

Also, for the whole “Guaido isn’t an American puppet” crowd, it’s pretty weird that he spent his time right after deciding he was president telling foreign holders of Venezuelan debt he was gonna get them paid: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-01-22/venezuela-s-guaido-says-opposition-seeks-financing-debt-relief

PT6A posted:

The US shouldn't be trusted, it should be ignored in this case. Their support or lack of support is not relevant to deciding whether Guaido is in the right to do what he did.

This whole "well, if Trump approves, it must be bad" is paranoid tankie thinking. Trump may be a giant idiot, but his position is presently irrelevant to the situation.

Labradoodle posted:

I wrote an extended post about the chain of events that led Guaido to assume the presidency yesterday, I'd rather not copy-paste it, so please take a look at it. The short version of things is, the Maduro government used every dirty trick at their disposal to block any chance of a peaceful transition towards democracy. They blocked a presidential recall referendum, outlawed the democratically elected national assembly, banned opposition parties from running in elections, arguably stole at least two of those, brutally repressed dissenters, etc.

What the Venezuelan opposition is doing is playing the only hand at their disposal, to try and force the military into publicly disavowing Maduro. International pressure is critical at this juncture because, without it, there's nothing forcing Maduro and the military from feeling the heat. It's not a matter of trusting the US, it's a matter of taking a look at what's going on in the country and realizing that sadly, without the US throwing its weight around, there's not a whole lot of chance this particular dictator is going to step down.

Furia posted:

Of course it isn’t. We just have a markedly different composition and don’t address it with the same language

e: like you did read the post right?

elgatofilo posted:

I understand people with a tiny bit of knowledge of the highland countries of Latin America (e.g. Mexico, Colombia) barging in and shouting about colorism. However, this is just an extension of "everywhere south of the border is Mexico." Venezuela is a Caribbean country with a markedly Caribbean ethnic composition.
Maduro is a visiby tri-racial person.
Guaido is visibly tri-racial.
Pretty much everyone involved in politics is visibly tri-racial.

This isn't a Mexican soap opera with blonde, white aristocrats oppressing there largely native/afro servants. Venezuela simply took a different turn in history, colorism does manifest itself as it does everywhere in the world, but it is simply not an important force in politics.
I've recommended this book in the thread before but if you're more interested in Caribbean race relations I recommend social researcher Eduardo Bonilla-Silva's "Racism Without Racists," which goes over the aspects of colorism and how it manifests differently in the different Latin American cultures.

Spacewolf posted:

No, it's not weird. Reason: Venezuela is going to need a fuckload of credit from the international markets to fund reconstruction and getting the country fed. Even in the most ideal plausible situation, not all foreign aid is going to be grants or commodities.

Does Venezuela have a shitton of odious debt, yes. But that's less important right now than getting what few assets Venezuela has left to a state where they're available to help the country. So you say nice things now, reassure nervous people. Later, when things are less insane, you can go "hey, some of this debt is bullshit".

Bathtub Cheese posted:

Simply asserting that the US is somehow irrelevant to the situation or will take no action to manipulate the political situation to its own ends is unpersuasive.

Spacewolf posted:

No, it's not weird. Reason: Venezuela is going to need a fuckload of credit from the international markets to fund reconstruction and getting the country fed. Even in the most ideal plausible situation, not all foreign aid is going to be grants or commodities.

Does Venezuela have a shitton of odious debt, yes. But that's less important right now than getting what few assets Venezuela has left to a state where they're available to help the country. So you say nice things now, reassure nervous people. Later, when things are less insane, you can go "hey, some of this debt is bullshit".

Rent-A-Cop posted:

I refuse to believe my opinion doesn't matter! Don't you know how American I am?!

Spacewolf posted:

No, it's not weird. Reason: Venezuela is going to need a fuckload of credit from the international markets to fund reconstruction and getting the country fed. Even in the most ideal plausible situation, not all foreign aid is going to be grants or commodities.

Does Venezuela have a shitton of odious debt, yes. But that's less important right now than getting what few assets Venezuela has left to a state where they're available to help the country. So you say nice things now, reassure nervous people. Later, when things are less insane, you can go "hey, some of this debt is bullshit".

Bathtub Cheese posted:

Simply asserting that the US is somehow irrelevant to the situation or will take no action to manipulate the political situation to its own ends is unpersuasive. We're approaching 2 decades of agitation against the PSUV from the US media, in the attempted 2002 coup, and from official government sources. The US treating post-Chavez Venezuela as an enemy is not particular to Trump. The opposition is tacitly trusting the US by accepting its support, despite its very real historical track record of destruction throughout the continent, often doing precisely what the opposition and the US are calling for -- a military coup.

uninterrupted posted:

Yeah, exactly: he’s telling his bosses in the global financial market that if his illegal coup succeeds he’ll wring the country dry to get them paid at the expense of the starving Venezuelans he claims to help. We’re saying the same thing.

uninterrupted posted:

Also, for the whole “Guaido isn’t an American puppet” crowd, it’s pretty weird that he spent his time right after deciding he was president telling foreign holders of Venezuelan debt he was gonna get them paid: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-01-22/venezuela-s-guaido-says-opposition-seeks-financing-debt-relief

Insanite posted:

I want to believe that Boots Riley is correct, as Sorry to Bother You is a great movie, but this is propaganda, right?

qkkl posted:

Would Venezuelans agree to a deal where the US gets all their oil in exchange for guaranteeing plenty of food, water, medical supplies, and housing are provided for all Venezuelans?

Bathtub Cheese posted:

It's absurdly racist, delusional, and jingoistic to act like the US did nothing wrong in Latin America and there is no reason to believe they will in the future, actually, but nice try.

Pedro De Heredia posted:

Boots Riley is not any more informed than any random poster in this thread.

qkkl posted:

Would Venezuelans agree to a deal where the US gets all their oil in exchange for guaranteeing plenty of food, water, medical supplies, and housing are provided for all Venezuelans?

Insanite posted:

So you're saying that Venezuela is a race-blind society?

e: Not at all saying that it's appropriate to apply an American race relations lens to Venezuela. Just surprisng to see that claim applied to _anywhere._

Temaukel posted:

Labradoodle posted:

For argument's sake, what do you think the opposition should have done? Guaido needs international support if he wants to force Maduro to abandon power. If he goes and says "Hey guys, thanks for expressing your support, but we'd rather you stayed out of this" it wouldn't accomplish anything except shooting himself on the foot.

I don't disagree with the assertion the US doesn't have Venezuela's best interests at heart. Best-case scenario, they're looking to score some easy points by knocking down a dictator in their backyard and counteract Russian and Chinese influence in South America. However, Venezuela's reached a point where there's absolutely no way forward without outside pressure. The government has shown time and time again they will not cede power democratically and the military will stay in line as long as they get their piece of the pie.

It's nice to imagine a situation in which Venezuela could take care of this issue by themselves, without any foreign pressure, but that's not going to happen.

fnox posted:

I've never heard anyone that isn't an expat from a modern day African country describe themselves as afro-Venezuelan, obviously we're not race blind, and there are racist people in the country, but you'll be kind of hard pressed to find actual white supremacists or people who are actually descendants only from former slaves. I've heard traditions being described as descending from slaves, such as a good half of the gaita zuliana percussion, or Barlovento drums, but not people, it's a strange distinction to make

Insanite posted:

My experience with Venezuela is largely playing La Vida Boheme's "Radio Capital" a lot in Grand Theft Auto, so I'm also a dumb American opening this thread for the first time in months.

I want to believe that Boots Riley is correct, as Sorry to Bother You is a great movie, but this is propaganda, right?

https://twitter.com/BootsRiley/status/1088222731898744832?s=19

Is there some truth to the idea that Maduro's support breaks down along racial and class lines, and is related to discrimination along them?

I don't believe for a second that he's a good dude, but it's hard being a left Twitter person and getting a straight read on things at the moment.

Also, donating a few bucks to Caritas, too.

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:

maduro's support breaks down along racial and class lines, yes. much can be said of the failures of Maduro and Chavez. "give the farmhands electricity, medicine, and guns" turns out to have been one of their smarter ideas. do people a solid, and remind them of it, and the majority of them will be willing to return the favor.

the urban middle class, who are most affected by lack of access to markets and are deeply personally offended they have to stand in the same line as janitors for sundries, are most of the opposition to him. hey, remember the last country the US helped overthrow- pardon, Backed Pro-American Forces- where the cities were inclined to welcome their new overlords and the difficult-to-access rural areas were united in implacable hatred?

that was a fun story. turns eighteen this year. no end in sight.

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:

maduro's support breaks down along racial and class lines, yes. much can be said of the failures of Maduro and Chavez. "give the farmhands electricity, medicine, and guns" turns out to have been one of their smarter ideas. do people a solid, and remind them of it, and the majority of them will be willing to return the favor.

the urban middle class, who are most affected by lack of access to markets and are deeply personally offended they have to stand in the same line as janitors for sundries, are most of the opposition to him. hey, remember the last country the US helped overthrow- pardon, Backed Pro-American Forces- where the cities were inclined to welcome their new overlords and the difficult-to-access rural areas were united in implacable hatred?

that was a fun story. turns eighteen this year. no end in sight.