|
Minister of Defense Vladimir Padrino Lopez just spoke on television. He said that the army rejects what he called a coup to remove Maduro from power, and any action "that tries to install a parallel government" in Venezuela. Lopez sent a tweet out last night saying as much, but this is the first time that we've seen him since yesterday. https://twitter.com/ReporteYa/status/1088461211174424576
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 16:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 21, 2024 10:27 |
|
|
General suits sold by the sixpack.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 16:50
|
|
|
Furia posted:Today I learned Venezuela is the wealthiest, most developed nation of the planet nah, it's just the standard trick Castro demonstrated for securing your power base as a left-wing leader in a developing country ~organically~ what happens is Brazilian wealth stratification, with an urban elite in the capitol and maybe a few other cities getting to enjoy all the benefits of modernity, and a nascent middle class of their hangers-on that get some of the scraps, like electricity ,and medicine. these are pretty cool, as scraps go! much of the current unrest is due to the middle class not getting access to them! meanwhile the rural poor still live like it's 1850. the way Chavez created a popular base that Maduro still hasn't pissed away was by cutting the rural poor in on the scraps. it is a wonderful convergence of 1. cheap 2. effective. you wanna know where all the domestic Maduro fans are coming from, that's where. We Brought You Light, Those Fuckers Are Going To Take It Away is a hell of a sales pitch.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 16:50
|
|
|
Furia posted:“We need relief from the debt that Maduro got us into to finance his loving beef eating holidays” Maduro defaulted on the loans. Guaido is attempting to have foreign countries, primarily the US, overthrow Venezuela’s elected government and impose himself as president by agreeing to sell out Venezuela’s wealth by restarting loan payments. Basically, “overthrow this dude I don’t like and I’ll start paying those worthless bonds you hold.” They posted a 31% gain yesterday, the biggest gain this year. Back in February hedge funds were buying up the bonds because they were dirt cheap and they knew the US would inevitably support any coup attempt.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 16:54
|
|
|
bumming your scene posted:Can't they recoup the billions of offshore dollars they have before taking on more credit? Oil drilling is a very capital intensive process, since you need to spend a ton of money up-front to build the derricks. The state-run oil company, the PDVSA, has been under-capitalized for years and has undergone a massive brain drain resulting in fewer wells and less efficient management of the wells they're currently pumping. At this point, Venezuela doesn't really have the capability to capitalize on its massive oil fields anymore, and they can't even bring in outside oil companies to drill and just take a slice of the profits because no one trusts the government. also IIRC a ton of the futures for the fields have been sold to China so that doesn't help either
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 16:57
|
|
|
uninterrupted posted:Maduro defaulted on the loans. Is that why he donated 500k for the Trump inauguration? I never knew. Anyways, any comment on the whole GS hunger bonds thing? If there is anything sacred to Maduro, it’s keeping that gravy train going
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 16:57
|
|
|
It's hard to get more credit when you're defaulting on your current debts. Also there's a hilarious contradiction at play. Pro-Maduro leftists want the sanctions lifted. The sanctions essentially block access to US financial markets. "Debt is bad! Give them more debt, you fascist pigs!"
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 17:00
|
|
|
Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:nah, it's just the standard trick Castro demonstrated for securing your power base as a left-wing leader in a developing country Do you have any firsthand experience with any of this, or is it just what you read in Jacobin? There are plenty of people in this thread explaining what has actually happened because they are or were actually there to see it happen, and the best you can do is tell them that they're the wrong kind of person whose observations are irrelevant because of who they are. A trope which was idiotic in 1917, bloodthirsty in 1937, and is a black hole of idiocy and meaningless hatred in 2019. Plastic_Gargoyle fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Jan 24, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 17:03
|
|
|
Furia posted:Anyways, any comment on the whole GS hunger bonds thing? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ basically the same as any other country with hungry people and loans. He had to choose between feeding people and paying loans. For a while he was paying loans, now he’s not. It’s a tough question for any country and the international community was p pissed he chose his people over bond holders. I swear I heard somewhere the IMF recognized Guaido as president, which would make sense since they represent debt holders. Can’t find the source though.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 17:05
|
|
|
Plastic_Gargoyle posted:Do you have any firsthand experience with any of this, or is it just what you read in Jacobin? Uncritically accepting whatever people say who claim they're there on the ground seems just as dumb as getting your marching orders from Jacobin, imo
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 17:08
|
|
|
uninterrupted posted:¯\_(ツ)_/¯ basically the same as any other country with hungry people and loans. So you didn’t look it up and see that Maduro issued an illegal bond to Goldman Sachs to finance his luxuries? I wonder why nobody takes you seriously Or did you honestly believe that “hunger” was the end use for the cash? Either way, I guess not submitting to Goldman Sachs and other wall street vampires makes me a neoliberal now
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 17:09
|
|
|
Plastic_Gargoyle posted:Do you have any firsthand experience with any of this, or is it just what you read in Jacobin? the way this story went every year from 1950 to 2012 will be politely ignored due to inconvenience
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 17:11
|
|
|
Furia posted:Either way, I guess not submitting to Goldman Sachs and other wall street vampires makes me a neoliberal now Yeah, you’re not submitting to Wall Street vampires by *checks notes* supporting the guy who publicly submitted to Wall Street over *returns to notes, furrows brow* the guy who told them to get hosed.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 17:13
|
|
|
Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:the way this story went every year from 1950 to 2012 will be politely ignored due to inconvenience Yeah, I completely forgot the Khmer Rouge, the Sendero Luminoso, and so many other bright spots.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 17:13
|
|
|
Plastic_Gargoyle posted:Yeah, I completely forgot the Khmer Rouge, the Sendero Luminoso, and so many other bright spots. bringing up the Khmer Rouge to argue in favor of US-backed regime change is -an- angle, i'll give it that
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 17:16
|
|
|
Also those “hunger bonds” are up 55% post-coup attempt. Wall Street is crazy thirsty for Guaido to chop up and serve them Venezuela.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 17:16
|
|
|
uninterrupted posted:Yeah, you’re not submitting to Wall Street vampires by *checks notes* supporting the guy who publicly submitted to Wall Street over *returns to notes, furrows brow* the guy who told them to get hosed. Guess I should just continue to see Maduro sell off the country to your daddy then. Maybe when your little trust fund runs dry you’ll understand e: like honestly how can you see Maduro selling off assets illegally and then frame it so that the guy calling bullshit on that is an rear end in a top hat if not because you are personally benefiting off that? Furia fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Jan 24, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 17:17
|
|
|
Lol this thread is like a bus stop people come in to talk up ANTI IMPERIALISM then its on to the next stop after a 10 page ride All because of a bus driver
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 17:19
|
|
|
Dreylad posted:Uncritically accepting whatever people say who claim they're there on the ground seems just as dumb as getting your marching orders from Jacobin, imo 'Uncritically.'
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 17:21
|
|
|
Furia posted:Or did you honestly believe that “hunger” was the end use for the cash?
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 17:25
|
|
|
Furia posted:Guess I should just continue to see Maduro sell off the country to your daddy then. Maybe when your little trust fund runs dry you’ll understand when the opposition has already promised that if in power, they will proceed to accelerate the sell-off this rings a little hollow. maduro sucks. he is not doing a good job. he should be replaced. the person currently making a bid to replace him has shown precisely zero indications he will be an improvement, and several to indicate he will make the problems worse. not least of which our own friendly President "Well At Least He's Not That Fucker" and his good friend Bolsanaro saying "hell yeah, this is our kind of guy."
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 17:26
|
|
|
Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:maduro sucks. he is not doing a good job. he should be replaced. the person currently making a bid to replace him has shown precisely zero indications he will be an improvement, and several to indicate he will make the problems worse. Invent a candidate in your mind that you would accept on the basis that they would be an improvement. Describe that person. I want to know what conditions need to be satisfied before you'll give your blessing to the fall of Maduro's government.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 17:29
|
|
|
Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:when the opposition has already promised that if in power, they will proceed to accelerate the sell-off this rings a little hollow. citation needed
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 17:30
|
|
|
Furia posted:e: like honestly how can you see Maduro selling off assets illegally and then frame it so that the guy calling bullshit on that is an rear end in a top hat if not because you are personally benefiting off that? Maduro is bad. The fact that he stopped bond payments, however, is good. The guy you said he’d pay bond holders and take out more loans. Wall Street has expected this for years, and the bond movement shows they’re willing to bet money on this. How, in your mind, is Guaido the anti-wall street choice?
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 17:30
|
|
|
It is astounding how people are treating Venezuela like an ideological fantasyland instead of looking at the Actual Situation and Actual Facts. For instance: uninterrupted posted:Yeah, you’re not submitting to Wall Street vampires by *checks notes* supporting the guy who publicly submitted to Wall Street over *returns to notes, furrows brow* the guy who told them to get hosed. Venezuela is an oil economy, which requires significant capital investment, as I've said like twenty times over the past day and a half. Without money, Venezuela cannot drill for oil and cannot fund their government or social programs, which is part of the reason why things have gotten so bad. Because they utterly hosed their own oil industry (Which was doing pretty well before Chavez and company came into power), Venezuela cannot survive without outside investment. Refusing to pay debts isn't Maduro taking some kind of principled stand against global finance, it's him torching any possible avenue for Venezuela to recover—because at this point, the only places willing to give the country money are the ones that will happily take everything that hasn't yet been sold off. See, for instance: China to Lend Venezuela $5 Billion as Maduro Visits Beijing
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 17:31
|
|
|
uninterrupted posted:Maduro is bad. The fact that he stopped bond payments, however, is good. In your mind, how is a post-Maduro Venezuela going to make capital reinvestments in itself to reverse its downward economic spiral? Where will the money come from?
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 17:32
|
|
|
uninterrupted posted:The fact that he stopped bond payments, however, is good. That he only stopped because continuing to make payments to the bond holders and to the military at the same time will be ignored because ???? And mind you, that happened only recently. I can’t loving understand how you are trying to convince me that selling of my country and paying up every drat time for the last 5 years or so is progressive but you do you
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 17:32
|
|
|
New guy's primary job would be to just set the stage for a proper election. Venezuela definitely needs to take out loans, and it also needs some kind of guarantee that the funds gained from those loans won't just be pissed away, at the moment anyone but Maduro being in charge is kind of the minimum that a bunch of creditors will accept (well, they are willing to lend money to Maduro, as long as he puts up a bunch of stuff as collateral). The new guy probably also will admit that Venezuela has enormous problems and allow humanitarian aid organizations full access to the country. Last part is the most important, and that will be an improvement. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Jan 24, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 17:32
|
|
|
Just so I’m clear, half the people replying to me think Maduro paid off loans too much and half think he didn’t pay the enough? Is there an an actual policy position you have vis-a-vie Venezuela’s economic situation or are you just hoping a US puppet state will be better than Maduro?
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 17:36
|
|
|
The damage maduro has done isnt going to get fixed in a year. Or a decade. Theres a lot of things to fix and not a lot of money to do it with. However getting Loan payments started again gives the country access to certain foreign markets and certain fast track loans that arent available otherwise. The closest thing to "intervention" that wont be deadly for the country is A Teams advising the indigenous units and restarting a security force with enough benefit to mitigate risk of old habits reforming with new regime. Mad
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 17:38
|
|
|
Schadenboner posted:Goddamnit, why didn't I suggest "Venezuela: Tankies to the left of me, fascists to the right, stuck in the middle with coup"? again, too long, it cuts off before coup
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 17:39
|
|
|
uninterrupted posted:Just so I’m clear, half the people replying to me think Maduro paid off loans too much and half think he didn’t pay the enough? lol, it's the height of bad faith to address multiple people making different points as if they're one person who's being inconsistent. It's clear that you have no interest in having anything resembling an honest discussion.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 17:39
|
|
|
Donated to show that I care.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 17:41
|
|
|
Norton the First posted:lol, it's the height of bad faith to address multiple people making different points as if they're one person who's being inconsistent. It's clear that you have no interest in having anything resembling an honest discussion. Sorry I didn’t say y’all? The arguments against Maduro’s borrowing policy directly contradict each other, I just figured everyone could hash it out and get back to me. Either way it makes it kinda weird that Guaido has publically stated he’d sell out Venezuela and no one piling on Maduro for having done the same is very bothered by it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 17:43
|
|
|
uninterrupted posted:Just so I’m clear, half the people replying to me think Maduro paid off loans too much and half think he didn’t pay the enough? You are being astoundingly disingenuous right now. First: Do you accept the fact that Venezuela requires outside capital investment? Because, if not, please read my posts again and tell me what you disagree with. Second: By cutting Venezuela off from Wall Street and other places with the ability to provide the necessary capital investment for Venezuela to recover, that limits Venezuela's options of who to get money from in the future, which in turn allows those fewer and fewer sources to put the screws on future loans. I'll try to make this as basic as possible: Let's say you need money badly, and there are three sources available to you: A, B, and C. A offers an interest rate of 10%, B offers an interest rate of 15%, and C wants 17% and 50% of any profit you make from selling your kidneys. Obviously, you'll want to go with A—but if you don't pay A back, then you're not going to borrow at only 10% interest the next time you need cash, and B probably won't want to lend to you either. That leaves C, who's already upped the charges to 20% interest and 75% of kidney sales, which you'll take because you have no other option. That's what Maduro has done to Venezuela. Pissing off sources of investment from anywhere is a bad thing, because future lenders are going to take more and more up front to recoup their investments, which against Venezuela is very easy to do since they need to sell their oil abroad. Telling outside investment sources "We'll try to pay you back" isn't trying to sell out the country (What little Maduro hasn't sold already), it's trying to ensure that when you need loans, you'll be able to find at least one person who will give you money without asking about the health of your internal organs.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 17:48
|
|
|
Norton the First posted:Invent a candidate in your mind that you would accept on the basis that they would be an improvement. Describe that person. I want to know what conditions need to be satisfied before you'll give your blessing to the fall of Maduro's government. hell yes, fanfiction time, let's do this. democratically elected with PSUV support due to an internal challenge to Maduro on an anticorruption platform, neatly averting most of the concerns re: civil war. and as long as we're fantasizing let's make her a trans woman who is eighty feet tall and creates rail infrastructure in her spare time. as i assume we are now discussing how we're going to write a script as opposed to anything based in reality, i may be willing to budge on a -few- of those traits as long as we can keep the runtime under an hour and a half, three-hour movies are getting kind of old
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 17:51
|
|
|
Acebuckeye13 posted:You are being astoundingly disingenuous right now. So, to clarify, you think Venezuelans should overthrow their entire government, to make western creditors trust them? I mean, that’s a stance, but a shakey one.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 17:53
|
|
|
uninterrupted posted:So, to clarify, you think Venezuelans should overthrow their entire government, to make western creditors trust them? That's a pretty reductive and disingenuous way of framing his argument, don't you think?
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 17:55
|
|
|
uninterrupted posted:So, to clarify, you think Venezuelans should overthrow their entire government, to make western creditors trust them? Where do you think the money is going to come from that is needed to turn Venezuela's economy around? This is a serious question that must be addressed by any post-Maduro government. Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:hell yes, fanfiction time, let's do this. democratically elected with PSUV support due to an internal challenge to Maduro on an anticorruption platform, neatly averting most of the concerns re: civil war. and as long as we're fantasizing let's make her a trans woman who is eighty feet tall and creates rail infrastructure in her spare time. I just wondered if you could even imagine someone who would get you to stop doubling down on the Maduro government. Apparently you can't.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 17:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 21, 2024 10:27 |
|
|
ryde posted:That's a pretty reductive and disingenuous way of framing his argument, don't you think? Welcome to D&D, enjoy your stay.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 17:56
|
|
