|
uninterrupted posted:So, to clarify, you think Venezuelans should overthrow their entire government, to make western creditors trust them? The opposition's and protesters' position is Maduro's government and presidency is illegitmate due to the circumstances surrounding the last election, he should withdraw and allow Guaido, as interrim president, to oversee proper and legitmate elections with actual candidates (for instance by releasing some of the previous candidates from prison). Randarkman fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Jan 24, 2019 |
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 17:57
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 22, 2024 06:43 |
|
|
AFancyQuestionMark posted:Welcome to D&D, enjoy your stay. It's pretty much the general culture of Something Awful. I realize I'm just howling into the void here.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 18:00
|
|
|
Norton the First posted:Invent a candidate in your mind that you would accept on the basis that they would be an improvement. Describe that person. I want to know what conditions need to be satisfied before you'll give your blessing to the fall of Maduro's government. An actual M-L party that seizes the entire means of production thing instead of relying on private firms to deliver goods and services with government subsidies. The ideal outcome would be like Cuba, which is by far the most advanced nation compared to its cohorts in the Caribbean and Central America
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 18:02
|
|
|
CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:An actual M-L party that seizes the entire means of production thing instead of relying on private firms to deliver goods and services with government subsidies. Whats M-L mean in this context? Can anyone more familiar with Venezuelas political parties elaborate if such a candidate exists whether in the PSUV or otherwise? I'm skeptical that even a full seizure could shore up the gaps in the economy. As has been pointed out, the oil industry will take serious capital investments in order to re-start, and Venezuela doesn't seem to have the cash on hand to do that without a big player (China, Russia, US, etc) getting involved.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 18:05
|
|
|
ryde posted:Whats M-L mean in this context? Marxist-Leninist and probably not.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 18:06
|
|
|
CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:An actual M-L party that seizes the entire means of production thing instead of relying on private firms to deliver goods and services with government subsidies. Venezuela already owned their oil industry. It was working pretty well before Chavez took power!
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 18:08
|
|
|
Like I'm trying to think this through. If private industry was seized would the government be able to source any inputs not produced locally without capital sticking their fingers into the pie? I'm guessing they can't be totally self-sufficient.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 18:08
|
|
|
Randarkman posted:The opposition's and protesters' position is Maduro's government and presidency is illegitmate due to the circumstances surrounding the last election, he should withdraw and allow Guaido, as interrim president, to oversee proper and legitmate elections with actual candidates (for instance by releasing some of the previous candidates from prison). “proper and legitmate” being US approved? Not being snarky, but if every Venezuelan government body beyond the one currently attempting a coup recognizes the elections as legitimate, that means the National Assembly wants to hand the control and acceptance of new elections to foreign bodies. What’s to stop the creation of a US backed puppet state, wishes and prayers that the US doesn’t interfere?
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 18:08
|
|
|
LeoMarr posted:Lol this thread is like a bus stop people come in to talk up ANTI IMPERIALISM then its on to the next stop after a 10 page ride is this post pro- or anti-public transit I can't tell
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 18:10
|
|
|
uninterrupted posted:“proper and legitmate” being US approved? Not being snarky, but if every Venezuelan government body beyond the one currently attempting a coup recognizes the elections as legitimate, that means the National Assembly wants to hand the control and acceptance of new elections to foreign bodies. What’s to stop the creation of a US backed puppet state, wishes and prayers that the US doesn’t interfere? It means an election where opposition candidates are allowed to run without being arrested in an election recognized as free and fair by international observers.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 18:12
|
|
|
Norton the First posted:I just wondered if you could even imagine someone who would get you to stop doubling down on the Maduro government. Apparently you can't. the point where the mask slips, and the advocates of US intervention reveal that their problem was not with Maduro, but with the concept of the left having power at all, is always gratifying
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 18:12
|
|
|
Dreylad posted:is this post pro- or anti-public transit I can't tell The crazy dude jacking off in the back of the bus has declared himself driver and is currently turning an imaginary steering wheel.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 18:13
|
|
|
Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:the point where the mask slips, and the advocates of US intervention reveal that their problem was not with Maduro, but with the concept of the left having power at all, is always gratifying Let me know when that happens.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 18:13
|
|
|
uninterrupted posted:“proper and legitmate” being US approved? Not being snarky, but if every Venezuelan government body beyond the one currently attempting a coup recognizes the elections as legitimate, that means the National Assembly wants to hand the control and acceptance of new elections to foreign bodies. What’s to stop the creation of a US backed puppet state, wishes and prayers that the US doesn’t interfere? 51% of dictatorial cronies agree Maduro is totally ok, therefore What even is this poo poo?
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 18:15
|
|
|
ryde posted:Let me know when that happens. did you miss the part where he proclaimed someone being democratically elected having challenged Maduro from the left would be Doubling Down On The Maduro Government, and therefore Bad it was really funny
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 18:17
|
|
|
uninterrupted posted:“proper and legitmate” being US approved? Not being snarky, but if every Venezuelan government body beyond the one currently attempting a coup recognizes the elections as legitimate, that means the National Assembly wants to hand the control and acceptance of new elections to foreign bodies. What’s to stop the creation of a US backed puppet state, wishes and prayers that the US doesn’t interfere? ...Those government bodies are directly controlled by the party that stands to lose massively in any fair election, you realize. And that the rector of the CNE (the government agency in charge of elections) publicly denounced the results.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 18:18
|
|
|
Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:the point where the mask slips, and the advocates of US intervention reveal that their problem was not with Maduro, but with the concept of the left having power at all, is always gratifying ...what?
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 18:18
|
|
|
Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:did you miss the part where he proclaimed someone being democratically elected having challenged Maduro from the left would be Doubling Down On The Maduro Government, and therefore Bad No, I saw them responding to a snarky, dismissive post in kind.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 18:20
|
|
|
The question, as far as international recognition goes, seems to be whether the 2017 Constituent Assembly and any of the ensuing constitutional innovations have any legitimacy, after the opposition took the National Assembly in a landslide in 2015 and the government responded by convening an even higher legislature - the dismissal of Maduro's legitimacy is not totally arbitrary Getting into the weeds of constitutionalism and electoral mandates seems likely to be as fruitful as it is in discussions about Allende, of course
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 18:26
|
|
|
ryde posted:No, I saw them responding to a snarky, dismissive post in kind. that the way chosen to dismiss the unpleasant thought was to claim any challenger from the left would just be another Maduro tells you something, imo it's neat, the way the unexamined assumptions creep in to what people say in Heated Gaming Moments.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 18:26
|
|
|
Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:that the way chosen to dismiss the unpleasant thought was to claim any challenger from the left would just be another Maduro tells you something, imo I think its more that you qualified that the challenger must come from the PSUV, which is pretty strongly tied in with Maduro's corruption. I'm charitably assuming that you assume a challenger from the left not coming from the PSUV would not be a real leftist. In turn, surely you can understand why someone who is critical of the Maduro regime would think that "an internal PSUV challenge" is not a real change from the status quo without assuming they are some capitalist stooge. Its incredibly tiresome for everyone to assume that people that disagree with them are doing so from a disingenuous place rather than trying to understand what is being said.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 18:35
|
|
|
"An internal PSUV challenge" is like thinking Trump is going to be primaried by a Principled Republican.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 18:39
|
|
|
ronya posted:The question, as far as international recognition goes, seems to be whether the 2017 Constituent Assembly and any of the ensuing constitutional innovations have any legitimacy, after the opposition took the National Assembly in a landslide in 2015 and the government responded by convening an even higher legislature - the dismissal of Maduro's legitimacy is not totally arbitrary Considering the vote that got the Constituent Assembly in power was so fraudulent the company that made the voting machines had to say something about it, I'd say definitely. Maduro has been an usurper for a while, Juan Guaido simply did what Henry Ramos Allup and Julio Borges didn't dare to do, this has been a long time coming.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 18:39
|
|
|
Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:did you miss the part where he proclaimed someone being democratically elected having challenged Maduro from the left would be Doubling Down On The Maduro Government, and therefore Bad Okay so you'd support, say, a party admitted into the Socialist International, that supports combining state economic planning that guides the efforts and expectations of capital, labor and consumption with Ordoliberal social markets, and that rejects neoliberal policies and believe that economic growth must benefit the people more equally? Because that would be Un Nuevo Tiempo (UNT), which is a member of the Mesa de la Unidad Democrática (unidad) electoral coalition, which took control of the national assembly in opposition to the PSUV. The UNT is the 2nd largest party in Unidad. UNT is who is contesting Maduro right now, you realize? There WAS a democratically elected challenge from the left, Maduro and his cronies dissolved the National Assembly rather than acknowledge them and then packed the courts with appointed, not elected, supreme court judges. It was tried already, and Maduro just solidified his support among the military by giving out more looted money to the top brass; authoritarian dictatorship 101 poo poo here. To keep the money and benefits flowing, it had to come from somewhere else, hence all of the drug trafficking and massive debt-trap loans from China and Russia. Again, you people keep talking about Yanqui Imperialism and Coups, but Maduro is the one who launched a coup backed by the military and his self-appointed judiciary to seize power by refusing to seat MUD national assembly members and then declaring the entire body illegitimate. This was 2 years ago. People have continued to starve and things have continued to get worse, while Maduro has gotten literally fatter in a gross analogy to how his cronies are busy looting everything from the country and storing their ill-gotten wealth overseas as fast as possible. That said, the US should not intervene militarily in any way (armed forces or providing arms), but putting diplomatic pressure on the regime by refusing to endorse its legitimacy is a good idea. I am also worried that this is a smoke-screen for Bolton to try his Iraq War playbook again, and I don't want the horrors from that, but please stop pretending that democratic means to remove Maduro were not attempted; they tried and failed due to authoritarian actions. Currently, the PSUV is not a socialist organization; its a kleptocratic party that is looting everything for dollars (capital) and then offshoring the wealth. The only thing uniting the Maduro regime is the control of the armed forces and police, which is being paid for by further looting and by loans promising Venezuelan land, oil, and other resources to the foreign regimes of Russia and China. An intentional move by those countries attempting to gain an Imperialist foothold in the global south, its the EXACT playbook China has been following in Africa. This is just the IMF and Imperialism with Russo-Chinese Characteristics.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 18:41
|
|
|
Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:that the way chosen to dismiss the unpleasant thought was to claim any challenger from the left would just be another Maduro tells you something, imo You seem to just be making things up now.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 18:42
|
|
|
Pedro De Heredia posted:"An internal PSUV challenge" is like thinking Trump is going to be primaried by a Principled Republican. Exactly. Presumably the poster in question would not have taken as much issue with something like: CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:An actual M-L party that seizes the entire means of production thing instead of relying on private firms to deliver goods and services with government subsidies. Its debatable whether something like that is possible and will lead to things being fixed, but its also not explicitly dismissing any party that is not tied to Maduro. The thing that gets missed is that the corruption is not limited to Maduro and is widespread.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 18:42
|
|
|
Laphroaig posted:Okay so you'd support, say, a party admitted into the Socialist International, that supports combining state economic planning that guides the efforts and expectations of capital, labor and consumption with Ordoliberal social markets, and that rejects neoliberal policies and believe that economic growth must benefit the people more equally? Quick correction, Guaido is a member of Voluntad Popular, not Un Nuevo Tiempo. However, the characterization of the party remains spot on.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 18:43
|
|
|
Labradoodle posted:Quick correction, Guaido is a member of Voluntad Popular, not Un Nuevo Tiempo. However, the characterization of the party remains spot on. I know, but VP was also part of Unidad, though 1 seat less than UNT, and the basic point is that the MUD didn't want 'economic reforms' or neolib speak for radical changes to the Venezuelan system, they wanted Maduro and his cronies to stop stealing everything they could get their hands on and stop arresting and murdering people with impunity.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 18:49
|
|
|
Laphroaig posted:I know, but VP was also part of Unidad, though 1 seat less than UNT, and the basic point is that the MUD didn't want 'economic reforms' or neolib speak for radical changes to the Venezuelan system, they wanted Maduro and his cronies to stop stealing everything they could get their hands on and stop arresting and murdering people with impunity. This should really be the greatest takeaway—the failure of Venezuela isn't because of socialism or imperialism, it's because of the incessant greed and corruption of an incompetent few.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 18:57
|
|
|
Party Plane Jones posted:again, too long, it cuts off before coup "stuck in the middle with coup" might be sufficient.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 18:59
|
|
|
Majority Report is interviewing Eva Golinger on the situation in Venezuela. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_2kkoPa8sbQ
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 19:02
|
|
|
Laphroaig posted:I know, but VP was also part of Unidad, though 1 seat less than UNT, and the basic point is that the MUD didn't want 'economic reforms' or neolib speak for radical changes to the Venezuelan system, they wanted Maduro and his cronies to stop stealing everything they could get their hands on and stop arresting and murdering people with impunity. I wish more people understood that it's really not a left/right conflict, it's about stopping the Chavista kleptocracy. Whoever stops it doesn't ultimately matter, so long as it implies the complete and total removal of PSUV from executive power.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 19:02
|
|
|
fnox posted:I wish more people understood that it's really not a left/right conflict, it's about stopping the Chavista kleptocracy. Whoever stops it doesn't ultimately matter, so long as it implies the complete and total removal of PSUV from executive power. I think that leftists are worried that a right challenge to the PSUV would just be an accelerated kleptocracy or leaving the poor to die, so I can get where they're coming from with the left/right framing.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 19:03
|
|
|
The poor are -already- dying (and being eaten, in a few cases). Anyone who actively tries to stop that is an improvement.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 19:06
|
|
|
Hey, sidenote for the people promoting the constitutionalist argument for the coup: if Guaido is now president, assuming he doesn’t get arrested/killed/etc, what happens in 30 days, the maximum time the president of the National Assembly can fill in as president of the country per article 233? Does Venezuela have no president?
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 19:06
|
|
|
AGGGGH BEES posted:The poor are -already- dying (and being eaten, in a few cases). Anyone who actively tries to stop that is an improvement. Absolutely, and I think the leftists are skeptical that a right-wing challenge will stop that. Whether you disagree with that notion, I think it's at least an understandable view. uninterrupted posted:Hey, sidenote for the people promoting the constitutionalist argument for the coup: if Guaido is now president, assuming he doesn’t get arrested/killed/etc, what happens in 30 days, the maximum time the president of the National Assembly can fill in as president of the country per article 233? Does Venezuela have no president? I assume that would be a constitutional crisis in this case. I would say that if Guaido doesn't start working towards elections really really soon I'm not going to have a favorable view that the constitutionalist argument is being done in good faith.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 19:08
|
|
|
Pedro De Heredia posted:"An internal PSUV challenge" is like thinking Trump is going to be primaried by a Principled Republican. i was asked for a fantasy, and delivered what was asked. and man, wasn't it interesting to learn that the person who asked that question considers even the thought of another left-wing government Doubling Down On Maduro. i will not pretend that people like our enthusiastic buddy are the entirety, or even the majority of the people calling for his removal. after all: Maduro's a fucker! he and his fellow kleptocrats should go! recent history does not have a shortage of examples of what happens when they come to power to save people from the tyranny of the left. outcomes range from the Lithuania package (country destroyed, resurgent theocratic fascist movement gaining power) to the Iraq Special (country destroyed, resurgent theocratic fascist movement full-on secedes, exports to the surrounding regions) be wary of taking their advice about why this time will be different. it doesn't go well.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 19:08
|
|
|
fnox posted:I wish more people understood that it's really not a left/right conflict, it's about stopping the Chavista kleptocracy. Whoever stops it doesn't ultimately matter, so long as it implies the complete and total removal of PSUV from executive power. after all. who could be worse than Saddam.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 19:09
|
|
|
uninterrupted posted:Hey, sidenote for the people promoting the constitutionalist argument for the coup: if Guaido is now president, assuming he doesn’t get arrested/killed/etc, what happens in 30 days, the maximum time the president of the National Assembly can fill in as president of the country per article 233? Does Venezuela have no president? I think he must organize free and fair elections as soon as possibly able to do so, and should he fail to do that, then it will be legitimate to say he has usurped authority unjustly. On the other hand, you can't exactly hold free and fair elections if the country is mired in a state of unrest and control of the government remains uncertain, so it may be necessary to wait more than 30 days depending on what happens. A return to free and fair elections is essential.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 19:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 22, 2024 06:43 |
|
|
Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:and man, wasn't it interesting to learn that the person who asked that question considers even the thought of another left-wing government Doubling Down On Maduro. They didn't consider the thought of another left-wing government doubling down. They considered the thought of another PSUV candidate as doubling down, because the PSUV is in-bed with Maduro. You're trying to back off of that part of your hypothetical, but its pretty critical to understanding where that poster was coming from.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2019 19:11
|
|