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uninterrupted posted:The justification of this coup as a constitutional crisis is threadbare and the Supreme Court has already said its invalid. The Supreme Court has been packed with regime loyalists for years. If Trump put nine Brett Kavanaughs in the SCOTUS, what would you say about the kinds of rulings it'd make?
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Jan 25, 2019 16:44
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Norton the First posted:Try to come up with a definition of coup that a) includes this episode and b) doesn't include a ton of similar episodes that no one has ever called coups before, because the US wasn't involved, so there was no "CIA-backed coup" rhetoric to latch on to. Where i'm from "coup d'etat" (we use a local translation of the phrase) is used any time a different party challenges the party currently in power. Wikipedia seems to suggest in english a coup is only when it's illegal 
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Jan 25, 2019 16:47
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Chuck Boone posted:The Supreme Court has been packed with regime loyalists for years. I wouldn’t be a fan, but they’d be entirely constitutionally legitimate. Lots of folks confusing “legally invalid” and “decision I don’t like” itt It’s the Supreme Court of Venezuela, it is the ultimate arbiter of Venezuelan law.
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Jan 25, 2019 16:49
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If the government is packed with stooges that will okay anything a president does without regards to rule of law, said government should no longer be consider as anything but a dictatorship. It isn't hard and if the supreme court was packed with pro trump stooges I'd think the same thing.
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Jan 25, 2019 16:53
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uninterrupted posted:It’s the Supreme Court of Venezuela, it is the ultimate arbiter of Venezuelan law. Not that it matters, because rule of law hasn't been a thing for a while.
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Jan 25, 2019 16:55
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uninterrupted posted:I wouldn’t be a fan, but they’d be entirely constitutionally legitimate. This argument would be more persuasive if Supreme Court Justices weren't fleeing the country and denouncing Maduro https://www.npr.org/2019/01/07/682865392/venezuela-supreme-court-judge-denounces-government-flees-to-u-s January 7, 2019 posted:A Venezuelan Supreme Court judge who once supported President Nicolás Maduro has fled to the United States and publicly denounced Maduro's re-election days before the inauguration. Of course the court is saying he fled to escape allegations of sexual harassment. Who's to say what's true?
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Jan 25, 2019 16:57
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https://twitter.com/taseenb/status/1088240781557723136
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Jan 25, 2019 17:08
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uninterrupted posted:What do you call the American Civil War? A civil war.
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Jan 25, 2019 17:09
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Biz Maduro'yuz 
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Jan 25, 2019 17:13
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are they still all from turkey? e;fb
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Jan 25, 2019 17:13
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uninterrupted posted:I wouldn’t be a fan, but they’d be entirely constitutionally legitimate. No decision is legally invalid if you're the one who decides what legally invalid means. That's the point of packing a supreme court with loyalists. Shrugging your shoulders and saying, "The law's the law!" is lazy.
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Jan 25, 2019 17:18
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https://twitter.com/jguaido/status/1056685527678812166 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag1o3koTLWM
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Jan 25, 2019 17:18
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not a cult posted:https://twitter.com/jguaido/status/1056685527678812166 Ahahahaha
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Jan 25, 2019 17:20
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Jan 25, 2019 17:21
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not a cult posted:https://twitter.com/jguaido/status/1056685527678812166 
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Jan 25, 2019 17:21
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When you're definitely a socialist:
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Jan 25, 2019 17:22
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Isn't that normal diplomatic congratulatory formalities? That sort of poo poo goes on all the time when a new leader is elected. Hell, I think trump got a bunch of those. Same with Obama, Bush, etc.
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Jan 25, 2019 17:23
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Pharohman777 posted:Isn't that normal diplomatic congratulatory formalities? No, don't you see? Venezuelans just got owned. It's hilarious and I cackle at their Maduro-filled future.
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Jan 25, 2019 17:25
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uninterrupted posted:What do you call the American Civil War? Criminal conspiracy and desertion in defense of slavery.
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Jan 25, 2019 17:26
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Pharohman777 posted:Isn't that normal diplomatic congratulatory formalities? yeah it's  as gently caress, or maybe sarcastic
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Jan 25, 2019 17:26
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Truga posted:yeah it's Sarcastic, I don't think so. Dude can't turn down international recognition from Brazil.
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Jan 25, 2019 17:28
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Hmm, yes. Extolling a known fascist's commitment to "democracy" and "human rights" is "just a formality". I am a smart person.
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Jan 25, 2019 17:28
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uninterrupted posted:What do you call the American Civil War? Are you a John Wilkes Booth truther?
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Jan 25, 2019 17:29
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Guaido is scheduled to speak at a rally in Caracas in the next few minutes. There's a live stream here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_ynY3yqySE
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Jan 25, 2019 17:31
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Guess we should continue to be ruled by the billionaire who donated $500k to trumps inauguration then As everyone knows, “thoughts and prayers” > $500k
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Jan 25, 2019 17:33
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Pharohman777 posted:Isn't that normal diplomatic congratulatory formalities? Who's this guy to give "diplomatic congratulatory formalities" back in October? He was only recognized as "president" by foreign powers a day ago.
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Jan 25, 2019 17:33
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Randarkman posted:Sarcastic, I don't think so. Dude can't turn down international recognition from Brazil. not a cult posted:Who's this guy to give "diplomatic congratulatory formalities" back in October? He was only recognized as "president" by foreign powers a day ago.
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Jan 25, 2019 17:34
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Chomskyan posted:Hmm, yes. Extolling a known fascist's commitment to "democracy" and "human rights" is "just a formality". I am a smart person. I mean, just this page you posted about all the love that Maduro was getting on social media from
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Jan 25, 2019 17:34
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Truga posted:I couldn't type poo poo that out with a straight face, so to me it looks sarcastic. I can't know what other people would take from it though. You aren't disputing the presidency of a nation in crisis and, likely, desperate for international recognition and support. Not putting you down, I just wouldn't compare experiences.
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Jan 25, 2019 17:37
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Truga posted:I couldn't type poo poo that out with a straight face, so to me it looks sarcastic. I can't know what other people would take from it though. Yeah, it looks sarcastic to you, but that is a statement run through the international politics equivalent of a hallmark greeting-card factory to render it generic and diplomatically acceptable for any sort of elected leader. Its a statement designed by committee, and it reads like it too.
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Jan 25, 2019 17:40
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Nah I get what you mean, guy's desperate for any kind of help right now. I expect maduro hates bolsonaro so guaido says "cool poo poo man" and hopes for reciprocation when the time's right, which is exactly what happened. It's extremely unfortunate bolso is a fash shitlord, though.
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Jan 25, 2019 17:41
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Furia posted:Guess we should continue to be ruled by the billionaire who donated $500k to trumps inauguration then Wait, come again?
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Jan 25, 2019 17:42
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Maduro also did diplomacy and decided to send $500k for trumps inauguration, which is far worse optics than saying "good job dude" over twitter.
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Jan 25, 2019 17:44
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Venezuela isn't Iraq for more than a few reasons. Bush had an obsession with finishing what his father started right from the moment he left office, Paul Wolfowitz was obsessed with the idea that Iraq was supporting Al Qeada and was producing nuclear weapons, and Donald Rumsfeld believed that an invasion could be both cheap and successful. Iraq was also surrounded by US allies who would allow use of port facilities, airfields, and staging areas, the terrain was open and flat, and domestic and international support for regime change was at an all-time high. And even after the invasion (Which had far too few troops to fully occupy the country), the situation really became the nightmare sectarian civil war that it did thanks to the staggeringly awful decisions made by Paul Bremmer and other occupation authorities. When looking at Venezuela, the options for an Iraq-style invasion just aren't there. Columbia isn't going to let the US use its country as a staging ground for tanks and infantry, and while Caracas and Maracaibo could probably be siezed in an amphibious invasion, actually securing the country if the military doesn't straight-up surrender would be a Vietnam-esque nightmare scenario. The other thing to question is: What would the US military objectives even be? Iraq was an utter shitshow due to the complete lack of any planning for the occupation, but even then there was the general sense of "Well we'll just take Baghdad and the other major cities, get treated as liberators, pass the government off to Chalabi, and go home." In Libya, the opposition was (somewhat) established and could be directly identified and militarily supported. But in Venezuela? Who are the targets outside of Maduro? What are the goals? What uses of force will actually bring about the desired end state of, presumably, a US-friendly market economy that will buy American goods and sell the US cheap oil? It's not as though the Venezuelan military has started firing on protesters. Hell, they haven't even tried to arrest Guaidó yet—the entire situation is just confused and gradually decaying. Really, as wary as people are of an Iraq-style invasion, I just don't think it's realistically possible. The US military is powerful, but it's not an unstoppable juggernaut, and the international, regional, and local support to even begin facilitating that kind of intervention just isn't there. And even if Trump was dead-set on invading, it would still take months to assemble the necessary forces—which would in turn be impossible to hide (As they were in Iraq). At this point, the only realistic scenario for the straight-up use of military force in Venezuela is if Maduro attempts to actively move against Guaidó, and Guaidó is able to get at least some military forces to try and protect him. Then, you at least have some identifiable objectives, goals, and allies on the ground that can do the actual hard part of securing the country and setting up the next government. But until then, I'm hard pressed to see the use of direct military force as a realistic option—especially as, to the best of my knowledge, there are no US Navy carrier strike groups or Marine Expeditionary Units anywhere nearby at the present moment.
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Jan 25, 2019 17:44
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Warbadger posted:A civil war. The confederacy had legitimate constitutional claims that they were allowed to leave the union. Very similar to Guaido Chuck Boone posted:No decision is legally invalid if you're the one who decides what legally invalid means. That's the point of packing a supreme court with loyalists. Shrugging your shoulders and saying, "The law's the law!" is lazy. Yeah, but that also means you can’t call someone declaring themselves president at the behest of a foreign power anything other than a coup. Which, speaking of: https://twitter.com/MHackman/status/1088825488867504128 (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 25, 2019 17:44
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Guaid's making a speech right now https://twitter.com/TVVnoticias/status/1088840261235396608
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Jan 25, 2019 17:46
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Truga posted:Nah I get what you mean, guy's desperate for any kind of help right now. I expect maduro hates bolsonaro so guaido says "cool poo poo man" and hopes for reciprocation when the time's right, which is exactly what happened. On my end I instantly picked up on all the generic phrases used and how you could easily play mad libs with the nation/position/leadername parts and the statement would be just as acceptable. He probably had a assistant do a copy-paste of a template and tossed in those words. Its why I'm not really worried about the implications of the congratulations, because it is so low effort and generic.
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Jan 25, 2019 17:47
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uninterrupted posted:The confederacy had legitimate constitutional claims that they were allowed to leave the union. Very similar to Guaido That's not a coup, that's secession. The confederacy wasn't trying to declare themselves the rightful rulers of the United States, they were trying to leave it. You are not helping whatever argument you are trying to make.
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Jan 25, 2019 17:50
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uninterrupted posted:The confederacy had legitimate constitutional claims that they were allowed to leave the union.  not hate, ammirite?
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Jan 25, 2019 17:51
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Acebuckeye13 posted:Venezuela isn't Iraq for more than a few reasons. Bush had an obsession with finishing what his father started right from the moment he left office, Paul Wolfowitz was obsessed with the idea that Iraq was supporting Al Qeada and was producing nuclear weapons, and Donald Rumsfeld believed that an invasion could be both cheap and successful. Iraq was also surrounded by US allies who would allow use of port facilities, airfields, and staging areas, the terrain was open and flat, and domestic and international support for regime change was at an all-time high. And even after the invasion (Which had far too few troops to fully occupy the country), the situation really became the nightmare sectarian civil war that it did thanks to the staggeringly awful decisions made by Paul Bremmer and other occupation authorities. Well, there is the possibility that the criminal activity and such in Venezuela spilling over its borders and actively being aided by a corrupt military pisses off a neighboring state enough that it invades under the pretense of police action. The Venezuelan side of the Venezuela/Colombia border is a huge safe haven for criminals and also a haven for the last Colombian rebel group after the farc disbanded.
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Jan 25, 2019 17:53
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