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Yossarian-22 posted:That it was in response to Maduro packing the court and creating a constituent assembly? Sure. No, I mean the guy who did it, Oscar Perez. It's a whole sad story in itself. A guy played revolutionary and then got gunned down by government forces as he tried desperately to surrender. Whatever that was about, it wasn't an attempted coup.
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Jan 25, 2019 19:49
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Chomskyan posted:The opposition has had many opportunities to come to a compromise with the PSUV through democratic means. The Constituent Assembly election, which was in accordance with Venezuela's constitution, was one such opportunity. Instead the opposition decided on a boycott, and escalated their violent tactics against the state. Now they're attempting to install a right-wing dictator who never won a SINGLE VOTE. I gotta actually disagree with this supposed legitimacy of the constituent assembly. Over 70% of Venezuelans agree that it's simply a way for Maduro to entrench himself as a dictator, including former Chavez supporters So again, put me on record as saying that Maduro is bad. But his actions don't exist in a vacuum, nor is the current bizarre dual presidency going to yield anything productive
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Jan 25, 2019 19:53
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Serious question to each individual posting here: What do you see as being the best course of action for America? Just wash their hands of it and let come what may? Diplomatic pressure? Invasion? Increased aid? Focus on charities trying to help the situation? I see a lot of people here strawmanning the gently caress out of one another or calling one another jingoists or heartless or whatever, but few people are laying out what they think should actually be done in this situation. Or is the pissing match and talking around each other the point of this thread now?
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Jan 25, 2019 19:56
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Recognize Guido and not a step more. American intervention is always a disaster.
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Jan 25, 2019 19:58
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Yossarian-22 posted:I gotta actually disagree with this supposed legitimacy of the constituent assembly. Over 70% of Venezuelans agree that it's simply a way for Maduro to entrench himself as a dictator, including former Chavez supporters Wow, would you look at that:  It says right there the president has a right to call a Constituent Assembly election ChaseSP posted:Recognize Guido and not a step more. American intervention is always a disaster. Recognizing Guido is a call for civil war Red and Black fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Jan 25, 2019 |
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Jan 25, 2019 20:00
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ChaseSP posted:Recognize Guido and not a step more. American intervention is always a disaster. I would go one step further and promise to end the sanctions on debt financing under the condition that fair elections are held, regardless of who wins.
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Jan 25, 2019 20:05
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Chomskyan posted:Wow, would you look at that: Please point to the sentence that says the constituent assembly can rule by decree. The articles you are quoting specifically say the constituent assembly is for the purposes of drawing up a new constitution, where is that constitution?
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Jan 25, 2019 20:06
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elgatofilo posted:where is that constitution?
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Jan 25, 2019 20:07
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elgatofilo posted:Please point to the sentence that says the constituent assembly can rule by decree. Sure, since you obviously can't read:  Seems pretty clear to me!
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Jan 25, 2019 20:10
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cool leftwing boner for legalism
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Jan 25, 2019 20:11
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Chomskyan posted:Sure, since you obviously can't read: Is it? Why? The obvious reading is that the existing authorities can't interfere with them in discharging their responsibility, which is to craft a new constitution. Bip Roberts posted:cool leftwing boner for legalism lol
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Jan 25, 2019 20:13
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Bip Roberts posted:cool leftwing boner for legalism I actually give zero fucks! I'm just pointing out how idiotic it is to claim the CA is something Maduro just made up, or something illegal. It's not, it's in the consitution. Also, there was a fair election, the fascists just boycotted it. Sorry!
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Jan 25, 2019 20:13
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Chomskyan posted:Sure, since you obviously can't read: Obstruction has the very specific legal meaning of blocking an organ of the state from exercising its enumerated powers. Please point to the precise actions taken which have prevented or obstructed the constituent assembly from performing its sole enumerated power of drafting a new constitution. Ruling by decree is not a new constitution, rule by decree makes a mockery of the rule of law and constitutional order.
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Jan 25, 2019 20:14
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Not to mention that the election process for the Constituent Assembly was a complete farce.quote:We condemn Sunday’s process to elect a National Constituent Assembly. The process was carried out in the complete absence of electoral integrity, posing serious problems of legitimacy, legality, and procedure. The measures taken by the government to prevent freedom of expression, freedom of the press, and the right to peaceful demonstrations contravene the democratic values of plurality and the democratic and participatory clauses protected in the Venezuelan constitution. https://www.cartercenter.org/news/pr/venezuela-080117.html And of course, the most recent presidential election was stolen before even a single ballot had been cast: quote:The majority of popular leaders of the MUD and other members of the opposition could not apply for the elections because of administrative and legal procedures and were disqualified from participating in the presidential elections by the government. This included Henrique Capriles (candidate in the 2012 and 2013 elections), Leopoldo López (sentenced to almost 14 years of prison during the 2014 protests), Antonio Ledezma (arrested in 2015 and later placed under house arrest), Freddy Guevara (whose parliamentary immunity was removed and fled to the residence of the Chilean ambassador), and David Smolansky (currently in exile), as well as María Corina Machado and Miguel Rodríguez Torres, former defense minister and dissident chavista, also incarcerated.[58] On 5 April 2017, the Comptroller General of Venezuela notified Capriles that for 15 years, he would be prevented from participating in public office, due to his alleged misuse of public funds, a charge that Capriles denied.[59] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#Disqualifications
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Jan 25, 2019 20:15
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Mr.Unique-Name posted:Serious question to each individual posting here: What do you see as being the best course of action for America? Just wash their hands of it and let come what may? Diplomatic pressure? Invasion? Increased aid? Focus on charities trying to help the situation? I 💯 agree with Bernie's take on this.
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Jan 25, 2019 20:15
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Chomskyan posted:Wow, would you look at that: I agree with the last sentence of that but appealing to the authority of the constitution is dumb. I disagreed with it when other posters in this thread argued that the constitution allows for Guiado to declare himself president too. I guess we might as well make African-Americans 3/5ths of a person since our constitution allows for that We're talking about a constitution that dates back to the independence wars of Simon Bolivar, an avowed centralist who concentrated power around himself in order to unite Latin America. I get that Maduro is trying to paint himself in a similar light but I don't think anyone is buying it
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Jan 25, 2019 20:16
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beer_war posted:Not to mention that the election process for the Constituent Assembly was a complete farce. The Carter Center is an American propaganda arm. punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Jan 25, 2019 |
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Jan 25, 2019 20:17
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Mr.Unique-Name posted:Serious question to each individual posting here: What do you see as being the best course of action for America? Just wash their hands of it and let come what may? Diplomatic pressure? Invasion? Increased aid? Focus on charities trying to help the situation? Help Venezuelan refugees and charities. That was my position on Syria and that's my position now
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Jan 25, 2019 20:17
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Chomskyan posted:I actually give zero fucks! I'm just pointing out how idiotic it is to claim the CA is something Maduro just made up, or something illegal. It's not, it's in the consitution. Also, there was a fair election, the fascists just boycotted it. Sorry! Starving a population to own the right wing. Booyah Lol “fair election”. Some serious communist coloured glasses you are wearing.
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Jan 25, 2019 20:20
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punk rebel ecks posted:The Carter Center is an American properganda arm. Weird, Chavistas happily cited the Carter Center's reports for years and at every opportunity. Guess they *somehow* turned fascist recently. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Jan 25, 2019 20:21
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Yossarian-22 posted:I agree with the last sentence of that but appealing to the authority of the constitution is dumb. I disagreed with it when other posters in this thread argued that the constitution allows for Guiado to declare himself president too. I guess we might as well make African-Americans 3/5ths of a person since our constitution allows for that The current constitution of Venezuela was written and adopted in the far away year of our lord 1999 by Chavez and the PSUV. The PSUV isn't even respecting the constitution they themselves wrote!
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Jan 25, 2019 20:21
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Chomskyan posted:I actually give zero fucks! Heh, dance puppets! 
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Jan 25, 2019 20:22
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Yossarian-22 posted:I agree with the last sentence of that but appealing to the authority of the constitution is dumb. I disagreed with it when other posters in this thread argued that the constitution allows for Guiado to declare himself president too. I guess we might as well make African-Americans 3/5ths of a person since our constitution allows for that This is not the 1961 constitution. This is the one drafted by Chavez in 1999.
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Jan 25, 2019 20:23
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Acebuckeye13 posted:Under Maduro, the country is actively dying. The lives of ordinary Venezuelans are made worse every second that Maduro remains in power. If something can be done that can peacefully and legally remove Maduro from office with brand-new elections (even if you have to squint at the legal argument)... well, that's not a bad thing, and worth supporting even if you can retain a very healthy suspicion of the overall motives of the United States and its level of involvement. Why doesn't the USA stop trying to put Venezuela into default and crash its economy if they care so much about the lives of ordinary Venezuelans?
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Jan 25, 2019 20:30
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Moridin920 posted:Why doesn't the USA stop trying to put Venezuela into default and crash its economy if they care so much about the lives of ordinary Venezuelans? could really ask the same question but just swap out Venezuela with America
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Jan 25, 2019 20:33
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I guess really I should ask why does anyone trust Donald Trump to do anything remotely resembling the right thing?
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Jan 25, 2019 20:34
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Mr.Unique-Name posted:Serious question to each individual posting here: What do you see as being the best course of action for America? Just wash their hands of it and let come what may? Diplomatic pressure? Invasion? Increased aid? Focus on charities trying to help the situation? end sanctions against venezuela. ideally, the us would ship some food down (because of the dumb trade war with china, we have massive piles of soybeans just sitting in silos waiting for someone to buy them at bargain prices) but that would be even more politically impossible than ending sanctions. none of this will happen, of course, as it is in the best political interests of the american center and right to turn venezuela into hell on earth so that they can blame everything on socialism, and wall street and the oil companies want regime change to extract as much wealth and oil at bargain rates as they can.
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Jan 25, 2019 20:37
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GoluboiOgon posted:end sanctions against venezuela. ideally, the us would ship some food down (because of the dumb trade war with china, we have massive piles of soybeans just sitting in silos waiting for someone to buy them at bargain prices) but that would be even more politically impossible than ending sanctions. none of this will happen, of course, as it is in the best political interests of the american center and right to turn venezuela into hell on earth so that they can blame everything on socialism, and wall street and the oil companies want regime change to extract as much wealth and oil at bargain rates as they can. I agree with this post, this is also what my "plan of action" would look like.
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Jan 25, 2019 20:40
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Ilhan Omar is making some pretty disappointing tweets on the subject. She’s also retweeting Russia Today pundits. Well, that's incredibly loving depressing.
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Jan 25, 2019 20:43
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GoluboiOgon posted:end sanctions against venezuela. ideally, the us would ship some food down (because of the dumb trade war with china, we have massive piles of soybeans just sitting in silos waiting for someone to buy them at bargain prices) but that would be even more politically impossible than ending sanctions. none of this will happen, of course, as it is in the best political interests of the american center and right to turn venezuela into hell on earth so that they can blame everything on socialism, and wall street and the oil companies want regime change to extract as much wealth and oil at bargain rates as they can. And it's in the interest of the american left to have Venezuela remain hell on earth by propping up the status quo. The Venezuelan people ain't finding poo poo for allies here.
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Jan 25, 2019 20:44
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GoluboiOgon posted:end sanctions against venezuela. ideally, the us would ship some food down (because of the dumb trade war with china, we have massive piles of soybeans just sitting in silos waiting for someone to buy them at bargain prices) but that would be even more politically impossible than ending sanctions. You seem to be laboring under the delusion that Maduro's regime accepts foreign aid in any significant quantities. Their neighbors have been begging them to open themselves up to foreign assistance for years.
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Jan 25, 2019 20:46
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GoluboiOgon posted:end sanctions against venezuela. ideally, the us would ship some food down (because of the dumb trade war with china, we have massive piles of soybeans just sitting in silos waiting for someone to buy them at bargain prices) but that would be even more politically impossible than ending sanctions. This post demonstrates a deep misunderstanding of both the sanctions regime and the PSUV's position on humanitarian aid. What do you think unfreezing Maduro's slush fund will do? Why would Maduro let aid into the country now, after refusing it for so long?
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Jan 25, 2019 20:49
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https://twitter.com/MHackman/status...pagenumber%3D43 Definitely not a coup
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Jan 25, 2019 20:53
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Volkerball posted:And it's in the interest of the american left to have Venezuela remain hell on earth by propping up the status quo. The Venezuelan people ain't finding poo poo for allies here. Yeah it's almost like maybe the USA should just stop constantly sticking its dick into everything all over the planet.
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Jan 25, 2019 20:56
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uninterrupted posted:No action is better than US lead regime change. Maduro is better than US regime change. - a non Venezuelan, that has never lived in Venezuela or has loved ones do so.
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Jan 25, 2019 20:56
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Hugoon Chavez posted:- a non Venezuelan, that has never lived in Venezuela or has loved ones do so. Yeah the USA has such a rich history of helping South America via intervening. It's not like they funded fascist death squads across the entire continent in the 80s or anything. Everyone just wants to help we have hearts of gold in DC. Those Venezuelans *need* the USA to help! They can't do poo poo for themselves!! America World Police to the rescue!!!
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Jan 25, 2019 20:57
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Oh we caused Syria In the Jungle? Oops haha not our intent!!! *privatizes everything and loots the country*
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Jan 25, 2019 20:58
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always kind of figured this was more pence's thing than trump's given trump doesn't even like to read 30 second long briefing memos
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Jan 25, 2019 20:58
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Mr.Unique-Name posted:Serious question to each individual posting here: What do you see as being the best course of action for America? Just wash their hands of it and let come what may? Diplomatic pressure? Invasion? Increased aid? Focus on charities trying to help the situation? Beyond that, let them figure this poo poo out internally. Their country, their business. Maduro seems to keep his army in line by not starving them while everyone else is, I don't think most would side with him much longer if they could live comfortably otherwise. Volkerball posted:And it's in the interest of the american left to have Venezuela remain hell on earth by propping up the status quo. The Venezuelan people ain't finding poo poo for allies here.
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Jan 25, 2019 21:00
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:https://twitter.com/MHackman/status...pagenumber%3D43 I’m not in favor of any US intervention in Venezuela, but I’m under the impression that in order for there to be a coup, by definition there has to be force, usually by the military. Is that what’s happening in Venezuela?
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Jan 25, 2019 21:01
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