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Which assets are frozen? Explain to me how a nation in default is going to pay for more loans. Who's gonna loan more money to someone who can't pay, and what are they going to ask as a collateral? What happened before May 2018 before that sanction was enacted? I left in 2016 when poo poo was bad already. What happened during the 5 years prior when Venezuela was allowed to get all the debt they wanted under Maduro?
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Jan 26, 2019 09:56
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:but it will be worse than you think it could be, because of American intervention. Much like this thread. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 26, 2019 09:58
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Sorry for barging into this thread. Wikipedia cites a study according to which in 2016 alone, most Venezuelans lost an average of ~8 kg due to malnutrition. There must be starvation and I would have expected there to be shiploads of food relief. But apparently there isn't? What is going on there - is no help sent to Venezuela, is it refused entry, does it disappear in shady places?
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Jan 26, 2019 10:03
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I believe Maduro has been refusing food aid from the US because things are actually going quite well. All reports to the contrary are American propaganda.
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Jan 26, 2019 10:05
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fnox posted:Which assets are frozen? The Bank of England has frozen all of the gold bullion belonging to the Venezuelan government, which is a process that started in November, when they refused to return 14 tons of it. https://www.bullionstar.com/blogs/ronan-manly/bank-of-englands-refusal-to-return-venezuelas-gold-sets-a-worrying-precedent/ quote:So what exactly is the issue? On 5 November, the London headquartered Reuters news agency that the Venezuelan state, fearing sanctions, is attempting to repatriate 14 tonnes of gold from the Bank of England in London, but that this gold withdrawal and transport operation has not yet been actioned despite the withdrawal request being made by Venezuela nearly two months ago.
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Jan 26, 2019 10:05
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Squalid posted:Same institutions had already stop touching them in 2015, for the obvious reason that it’s a bad bet to loan money to people leveraged up to their eyeballs who are already beginning to default. I meant to point out that you don't need a literal embargo or heavy trade sanctions on paper for it to be just as effective in practice. The United States essentially declaring Venezuela as part of an axis of evil, and even before with Obama's sanctions on individuals, creates an environment of - why take the risk? What if any deal gets mixed up with these actors? How will this escalate with possible further sanctions? It's just a very narrow thing to need to read a 1 to 1 "explain to me exactly how this sanction does this" out of the context of broader economic warfare and signaling.
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Jan 26, 2019 10:13
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Lord Stimperor posted:Sorry for barging into this thread. Wikipedia cites a study according to which in 2016 alone, most Venezuelans lost an average of ~8 kg due to malnutrition. There must be starvation and I would have expected there to be shiploads of food relief. But apparently there isn't? What is going on there - is no help sent to Venezuela, is it refused entry, does it disappear in shady places? Maduro is denying all of it so relief comes either through the Catholic Church or the refugee missions in the Colombian border. Pener Kropoopkin posted:The Bank of England has frozen all of the gold bullion belonging to the Venezuelan government, which is a process that started in November, when they refused to return 14 tons of it. Lmao you’re aware what that gold is right? This isn’t from our bank account, that’s our foreign reserves, that transaction alone is more than 10% of what’s left. Maduro took power with 40 billion in foreign reserves, we’re down to our last 8 billion and you want him to pawn that off for a couple more months in power? Do you know who’s gonna get that gold? Also, the poverty rate please.
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Jan 26, 2019 10:20
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fnox posted:However bad you think things are right now, they're worse than you think. I'm just looking at absolute numbers of refugees here, I'd say you're doing pretty good. It'd be a success story if this was after the U.S. concluded its special responsibilities.
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Jan 26, 2019 10:21
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Lote posted:I believe Maduro has been refusing food aid from the US because things are actually going quite well. All reports to the contrary are American propaganda. He's protecting the local agricultural industry. You can't just dump food aid on a country without a plan on getting that country's broken agricultural system working again. Also you can't just hand off the food aid to the local strongmen, you have to make sure the people who need it are actually getting it, otherwise the strongmen will protect it with guns and gouge people as much as possible to get it.
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Jan 26, 2019 10:25
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qkkl posted:He's protecting the local agricultural industry. You can't just dump food aid on a country without a plan on getting that country's broken agricultural system working again. Oh man I missed this guy.
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Jan 26, 2019 10:28
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fnox posted:Lmao you’re aware what that gold is right? This isn’t from our bank account, that’s our foreign reserves, that transaction alone is more than 10% of what’s left. Maduro took power with 40 billion in foreign reserves, we’re down to our last 8 billion and you want him to pawn that off for a couple more months in power? I'm certain that the government is gonna get the gold to service its debts. They just did a swap deal with Germany five days ago which can't go through because the BoE is sitting on it. There were also attempts to increase gold production in the Orinoco which were pre-empted by the American sanctions mentioned in the article I linked earlier, which makes it difficult for Venezuela's gold mining industry to function if they can't do business with foreign firms.
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Jan 26, 2019 10:29
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fnox posted:Oh man I missed this guy. You probably miss me too. Intriguingly, the Washington Post has also used US intervention in Panama to contextualize the US's current approach to Venezuela. Washington Post posted:The U.S. pressure campaign is aimed partly at convincing Maduro that he cannot continue to govern, and partly at building up Guaidó. https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...m=.af2e1b7da797
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Jan 26, 2019 11:37
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Isn’t the Washington Post like, a newspaper?
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Jan 26, 2019 11:40
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Furia posted:Isn’t the Washington Post like, a newspaper? It's a propaganda rag of Jeff Bezos, the richest dipshit in the world.
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Jan 26, 2019 12:22
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Furia posted:Isn’t the Washington Post like, a newspaper? For people in Washington D.C.
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Jan 26, 2019 12:27
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qkkl posted:He's protecting the local agricultural industry. You can't just dump food aid on a country without a plan on getting that country's broken agricultural system working again. How is Maduro protecting the agricultural industry? Ever since the company that produced fertilizer, weed killers, etc, was expropriated finding chemicals needed for agriculture is next to impossible in Venezuelan soil. The few who have the means buy them in Colombia. The ministry of agriculture used to hand out vaccines for cattle years ago but now farmers have to buy them at black market prices because the ministry just stopped. Also, do you think that the CLAP food packages are currently being properly distributed?
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Jan 26, 2019 12:44
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Blue Nation posted:How is Maduro protecting the agricultural industry? Ever since the company that produced fertilizer, weed killers, etc, was expropriated finding chemicals needed for agriculture is next to impossible in Venezuelan soil. The few who have the means buy them in Colombia. The ministry of agriculture used to hand out vaccines for cattle years ago but now farmers have to buy them at black market prices because the ministry just stopped. Yes, the way CLAP packages are being distributed is the way it should be done; handed directly to the end consumers.
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Jan 26, 2019 12:47
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Taintrunner posted:It's a propaganda rag So a newspaper
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Jan 26, 2019 12:58
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qkkl posted:Yes, the way CLAP packages are being distributed is the way it should be done; handed directly to the end consumers. You missed a lot of qualifying adjectives that go with "end consumer"
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Jan 26, 2019 13:01
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Is Maduro gonna stuff 1.2 billion dollars worth of gold bullion into his pockets? He can pack them in next to the empanadas. Not making any political point here, but 1.2 billion dollars worth of gold is around 1.5 cubic meters, so you could potentially stash them in a big safe under a desk, as long as it can take 28 tons of weight or so.
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Jan 26, 2019 13:12
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We're making bold strides here in terms of delegitimizing any potential source.
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Jan 26, 2019 13:17
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Socks4Hands posted:We're making bold strides here in terms of delegitimizing any potential source. I mean, I thought the objective was to invalidate all sources of a posteriori knowledge in favor of conclusions drawn from ideological priors? 
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Jan 26, 2019 13:23
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Schadenboner posted:I mean, I thought the objective was to invalidate all sources of a posteriori knowledge in favor of conclusions drawn from ideological priors? Youre giving me PTSD like flashbacks to the time I was at an Austrian School Symposium and I need to go lie down now.
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Jan 26, 2019 13:32
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Schadenboner posted:I mean, I thought the objective was to invalidate all sources of a posteriori knowledge in favor of conclusions drawn from ideological priors? If I get attacked for citing a historical timeline of objective fact hosted at rutgers.edu and then called out for citing the Washington Post as an example of a media organization who similarly used US intervention in Panama as a framework from which to approach the situation in Venezuela then perhaps I should just start making stuff up. Then, at least, the vehemence of my argument and the venom of my tone might be convincing once I'm as unfettered from reality as some of the people I've been talking to here. Sing Along fucked around with this message at 13:53 on Jan 26, 2019 |
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Jan 26, 2019 13:38
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Barudak posted:Youre giving me PTSD like flashbacks to the time I was at an Austrian School Symposium and I need to go lie down now. I cannot tell you how relived I am that, after  years away, D&D is still as I left it.
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Jan 26, 2019 13:40
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/26/european-leaders-ready-to-recognise-guaido-as-venezuelan-president Looks like France, Germany and Spain are ready to recognise Guaidó as president unless elections are called in 8 days
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Jan 26, 2019 14:37
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Pochoclo posted:https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/26/european-leaders-ready-to-recognise-guaido-as-venezuelan-president Lol watch the opposition boycott these too and say they should win the presidency anyways.
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Jan 26, 2019 15:32
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uninterrupted posted:Lol watch the opposition boycott these too and say they should win the presidency anyways. If the elections are organized by the CNE as it currently stands then they would most definitely boycott the elections, and for good reason. The CNE is run by Maduro loyalists. The CNE has been outright falsifying election results in favour of hte regime since at least 2017. The opposition isn't calling for the kind of elections that we've had in recent years. It's calling for free and transparent elections. That can't happen if the CNE is running them.
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Jan 26, 2019 15:58
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Barudak posted:Youre giving me PTSD like flashbacks to the time I was at an Austrian School Symposium and I need to go lie down now. Sup PTSD buddy, i was the one laughing like a madman in 2016 prague. Anyway, elections whit out the cne would have to be done by a un task force, and probably blue helmets on the ground. Maybe mexico and the vatican can pull something out of their rear end and unasur can take over.theres no way you can do that in 8,30 or even 90 days.this assuming Maduro even accepts it,which,uhhh
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Jan 26, 2019 16:12
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:There isn't any conceivable future where things are going to get better for Venezuela so long as the United States keeps turning the screws. There isn't any concievable future where things get better for Venezuela with Maduro in power.
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Jan 26, 2019 16:27
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Chuck Boone posted:If the elections are organized by the CNE as it currently stands then they would most definitely boycott the elections, and for good reason. The CNE is run by Maduro loyalists. The CNE has been outright falsifying election results in favour of hte regime since at least 2017. The last elections were free and transparent. The opposition explicitly asked other nations not to send election observers because it would undercut their whole "don't run for office" strategy. So agreed, they'll definitely keep avoiding elections and urging other foreign nations to put them in power of Venezuela instead. edit: source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-politics-un/venezuela-opposition-asks-u-n-not-to-send-observers-to-may-vote-idUSKCN1GO2J0 uninterrupted fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Jan 26, 2019 |
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Jan 26, 2019 16:38
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uninterrupted posted:The last elections were free and transparent. The opposition explicitly asked other nations not to send election observers because it would undercut their whole "don't run for office" strategy. Oh gently caress off. This has been addressed a hundred times in the last days. Though apparently you think just lying often enough will make this true. E: The opposition did ask observers to stay out to not lend credibility to an illegitimate election. It was a sham because any credible opposition candidate was barred from participating, even then polls showed relative nobodies from the opposition leading over Maduro. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Jan 26, 2019 |
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Jan 26, 2019 16:40
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Also, here's the problem with everyone yelling 'listen to Venezuelans': the majority of loud Venezuelans on twitter are wealthy expats who will loudly lie about the state of the country: https://twitter.com/Louis_Allday/status/1088448677440442368
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Jan 26, 2019 16:46
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uninterrupted posted:Also, here's the problem with everyone yelling 'listen to Venezuelans': the majority of loud Venezuelans on twitter are wealthy expats who will loudly lie about the state of the country You got any facts to back that up?
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Jan 26, 2019 16:47
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uninterrupted posted:Also, here's the problem with everyone yelling 'listen to Venezuelans': the majority of loud Venezuelans on twitter are wealthy expats who will loudly lie about the state of the country: I don't get the whole 'lying about the state of the country' argument. Do you honestly think that things are good in Venezuela and its a socialist paradise? There is no corrupt government and everyone has enough food??? Maduro claims there is not humanitarian crisis. But every NGO and the western media agrees there is. Who is lying? vincentpricesboner fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Jan 26, 2019 |
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Jan 26, 2019 16:49
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uninterrupted posted:Also, here's the problem with everyone yelling 'listen to Venezuelans': the majority of loud Venezuelans on twitter are wealthy expats who will loudly lie about the state of the country: You realize not all of us interact with Venezuelas solely online right?
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Jan 26, 2019 16:50
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uninterrupted posted:The last elections were free and transparent. The opposition explicitly asked other nations not to send election observers because it would undercut their whole "don't run for office" strategy. Thanks for finding the article for me. I'd like to point this out, taken from that same article: quote:The main opposition coalition is boycotting the election on the grounds that the elections council has historically favored the ruling Socialist Party, and because the best-known candidates have been jailed or barred from holding office. uninterrupted posted:
https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/1088251039499804672
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Jan 26, 2019 16:58
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Redczar posted:You realize not all of us interact with Venezuelas solely online right? Redczar posted:The propaganda machine in Venezuela is really efficient, drat. I have an idiot friend that has been in Venezuela for a week (out of a month total), and just told us how the real problems in Venezuela are those drat business owners and that the only people with complaints are on the right. And the only problem is the low minimum wage, but she understands because the government provides so much for people! This person knew nothing of Venezuela before she went. I'm counting the days until the CIA conspiracy theories manifest. If you're going to ignore people who've actually gone to Venezuela you should at least also ignore people who don't live there.
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Jan 26, 2019 17:01
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uninterrupted posted:The last elections were free and transparent. The opposition explicitly asked other nations not to send election observers because it would undercut their whole "don't run for office" strategy. Have you even read your own link? "The main opposition coalition is boycotting the election on the grounds that the elections council has historically favored the ruling Socialist Party, and because the best-known candidates have been jailed or barred from holding office." Sure, being jailed or disqualified is actually part of an ingenious "strategy". 
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Jan 26, 2019 17:03
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Step 1: Get arrested. Step 2: Be thrown in jail Step 3: ??? Step 4: Profit!!!!!
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Jan 26, 2019 17:06
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