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Weeeell... yes and no. It still has way too many dungeons, and like half of them are super bland "walk through a distinctly rectangular forest / tomb full of weak trash and then kill a big animal / elf / skelton" kinda deals. You don't even do them all, since you quickly outlevel them. There's definitely some cruft to be trimmed there too.
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Jan 24, 2019 23:39
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megane posted:Weeeell... yes and no. It still has way too many dungeons, and like half of them are super bland "walk through a distinctly rectangular forest / tomb full of weak trash and then kill a big animal / elf / skelton" kinda deals. You don't even do them all, since you quickly outlevel them. There's definitely some cruft to be trimmed there too. It is strictly optimal to do all the t1 dungeons. In fact, I'm pretty sure you end up behind the curve in terms of levels if you don't do all the t1 dungeons.
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Jan 24, 2019 23:45
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megane posted:Weeeell... yes and no. It still has way too many dungeons, and like half of them are super bland "walk through a distinctly rectangular forest / tomb full of weak trash and then kill a big animal / elf / skelton" kinda deals. You don't even do them all, since you quickly outlevel them. There's definitely some cruft to be trimmed there too. I don't dislike this that much to be honest. Different dungeons are easier or harder for different classes, so it is nice to be able to do different paths instead of *always go this way*. The issue tends to be a bit more that your dungeon will be like 4 or 5 levels long and every one will run on the same layout generator. Sometimes you'll get some non-standard thing, like the castle in the forest, but that isn't always. You don't even need whole level replacements like that, just the little custom vaults from DCSS are neat things to find even after you've seen them before. e: Sampatrick posted:It is strictly optimal to do all the t1 dungeons. In fact, I'm pretty sure you end up behind the curve in terms of levels if you don't do all the t1 dungeons. Pretty sure this is completely wrong. Just cruising by and taking the 'skip to the end' option for extra loot chances is fine. I don't even think you need to do all the t2 dungeons, but those have extra reward bits that are good to get.
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Jan 24, 2019 23:46
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It is strictly optimal to do all the T1 dungeons but it's not because of the leveling curve -- ToME dungeons scale to your level, and it's really hard to actually fall below the level floor as long as you do most of the "core" dungeons and do them in the right order. The real reason is because you get more chances at getting one of the incredibly good T1 fixedarts (like the Blood of Life or Eden's Guile on non-Shalore), and more loot to convert into gold to buy +hp items and a T3 weapon from Last Hope before you take on the T2 dungeons. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Jan 24, 2019 |
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Jan 24, 2019 23:49
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Similarly while the Orc Campaign is great, the biggest problem with it isn't the adjusted leveling curve (which is fantastic) but rather the fact that loot really does not keep pace the same way experience does.
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Jan 25, 2019 00:07
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taqueso posted:This is a queue that most roguelikes can't even produce. Unique sounds will get my attention better than flash red on the screen. Conversely, I'm generally playing roguelikes late at night with the sound off, so if it's relying on audio cues I'm going to die a lot. This is why I hacked together a closed captions mode for DoomRL.
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Jan 25, 2019 02:48
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ToME can be both great and flawed. Most older games of any genre that pop up on the all time lists are, as players get accustomed to iterative improvement across the genre. For a newer player (and by "newer" in this case it's basically <50 hours, which is still a long time) most of ToME's weaknesses aren't really apparent at all. Even then, ToME's problems are mostly due to it's legacy approach in level and enemy design (which is somewhat easy but quite time-consuming to fix, which is why everyone can make reasonable-sounding suggestions that aren't helpful at all when you consider the time cost to implement them) as opposed to systems design. Most people generally agree that ToME has a great approach to class/race design and "consumables", not to mention that ToME was lightyears ahead of everyone else with a UI that is mouse-compatible, amazingly customizable, clean and attractive even after a decade.
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Jan 25, 2019 03:14
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I mean, it wouldn't take that much effort to just delete Norgos and Ruins of Kor'Pul and Rhaloren Camp and Old Forest
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Jan 25, 2019 03:47
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RPATDO_LAMD posted:People complain the most about the games that they've played for long enough to find all the little warts. That's very true!
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Jan 25, 2019 10:00
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ToxicFrog posted:Conversely, I'm generally playing roguelikes late at night with the sound off, so if it's relying on audio cues I'm going to die a lot. Headphones?
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Jan 25, 2019 12:37
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Black August posted:Man watching Yulgash nearly beat ADOM 2 and doing all these absolutely insane speedrun strats from ADOM 1 sub-hour is something else Holy poo poo, did he break the hour? Last run I saw was his WR run with Drakeling Ele that clocked a bit over 1:20. We knew there was time to save there, but even his combined best splits still came to 1:05.
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Jan 25, 2019 14:14
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Anyone tried Rogue Empire yet? The reviews are generally positive, but some of the negative ones do bring up possibly important points about the slowness and the lack of active skills.
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Jan 25, 2019 15:04
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Jedit posted:Holy poo poo, did he break the hour? Last run I saw was his WR run with Drakeling Ele that clocked a bit over 1:20. We knew there was time to save there, but even his combined best splits still came to 1:05. No but he was theorizing its possibility and viability with the evolution of his current strats Demon Village strat and Tower at level loving TEN rattles me
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Jan 25, 2019 15:15
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Black August posted:No but he was theorizing its possibility and viability with the evolution of his current strats What's the Demon Village strategy? I must have missed it. Don't know what's going on with the "lottery" either, and it's not like there was time to explain.
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Jan 25, 2019 16:02
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Burning Rain posted:Anyone tried Rogue Empire yet? The reviews are generally positive, but some of the negative ones do bring up possibly important points about the slowness and the lack of active skills. In all seriousness, would love to hear about gameplay.
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Jan 25, 2019 16:02
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As a counterpoint to everyone saying how great TOME is, I personally have played about 18 hours of it, bouncing off it each time before level 20, because every item in the game has a screen like this And every enemy has a screen like this  And I get extremely tired of all the stats and abilities I'm supposed to be tracking if I want to play optimally. It's exhausting and not fun unless you're someone like tuxedo catfish who's played hundreds of hours and can at a glance parse out all the relevant info.
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Jan 25, 2019 18:57
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There are some mods to clean those up and highlight more important bits. That said, item info like that is one of TOME's flaws.
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Jan 25, 2019 19:01
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Hooplah posted:And I get extremely tired of all the stats and abilities I'm supposed to be tracking if I want to play optimally. It's exhausting and not fun unless you're someone like tuxedo catfish who's played hundreds of hours and can at a glance parse out all the relevant info. i was 18 hours into ToME once too, and long enough ago that the UI probably sucked even harder at the time v  vto be fair I also basically transitioned from being really good at some ancient version of Crawl to starting out in ToME, and there are a lot of transferable skills between the two, which may have helped
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Jan 25, 2019 19:09
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Hooplah posted:As a counterpoint to everyone saying how great TOME is, I personally have played about 18 hours of it, bouncing off it each time before level 20, because every item in the game has a screen like this  I bought TOME about a year ago and found much of it refreshing and interesting, but the exhausting stat screens are half of why I dropped out. The other half is the mixed praise this thread gives it. When it takes tens of hours to find out whether the part that sounds bad is something I can live with, the opportunity cost pushes me to find another video game to play.
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Jan 25, 2019 19:22
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Hooplah posted:As a counterpoint to everyone saying how great TOME is, I personally have played about 18 hours of it, bouncing off it each time before level 20, because every item in the game has a screen like this At normal difficulty, you can generally ignore all of that poo poo and just go with “bigger number” theory. Keep the weapon with the highest damage stat and the armor with the best... armour stat (or defense as applicable). If you finish the T1 dungeons and haven’t filled every item slot, go buy something. There’s not a lot of required optimization beyond that (for most classes anyhow). I can also tell you from personal experience that it’s possible to win without ever looking at an enemy’s abilities, while forgetting to upgrade your loadout entirely after going East.
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Jan 25, 2019 19:24
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My biggest problem with Tome is that Cursed exists so I can never play anything else.
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Jan 25, 2019 20:06
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Jester Mcgee posted:My biggest problem with Tome is that Cursed exists so I can never play anything else. that is a problem, because Cursed is the moldy leftovers of someone who quit development on ToME and one of the most barren and anti-designed classes in the game the nicest thing i can say about it is "at least it's not Summoner"
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Jan 25, 2019 20:12
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The only interesting thing cursed brings to the table is preternatural senses and blindside. Basically every other part of it is just "marauder, but worse". Coincidentally, marauder exists and is basically the only thing I play anymore.
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Jan 25, 2019 20:22
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Jedit posted:What's the Demon Village strategy? I must have missed it. Don't know what's going on with the "lottery" either, and it's not like there was time to explain. Demon Village is the lottery strat. When you pray too much and piss a god off, they summon monsters to gently caress you up. With careful placement in the HMV, he gets to that prayer point as a chaotic, locks himself in, and then prays nonstop a few hundred times. This fills every single square of the HMV with a Greater Demon. It also makes the neutral and lawful gods LOVE him because of how pissed the chaotic god gets. Boom, convert to N, two instant precrowns and a crowning, play the lottery for fabulous prizes.
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Jan 25, 2019 20:45
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I have a similar problem with TOME except for me it's the two Chronomancy classes. I dunno if they're even that good, the flavor is just sublime. Plus, going full yolo with anomalies is fun.
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Jan 25, 2019 20:53
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Infinity Gaia posted:I have a similar problem with TOME except for me it's the two Chronomancy classes. I dunno if they're even that good, the flavor is just sublime. Plus, going full yolo with anomalies is fun. Paradox Mage is still god tier even after multiple major nerfs and Temporal Warden is on the favored side of "balanced"
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Jan 25, 2019 21:03
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Did tome fix the thing where you drown all the villagers to get their loot at lvl1? That's a good example of having the optimal play be tedious.
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Jan 25, 2019 22:46
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taqueso posted:Did tome fix the thing where you drown all the villagers to get their loot at lvl1? That's a good example of having the optimal play be tedious. Not really, but it's not worth doing on Nightmare or below and on Insane it's... well on the one hand it's possible to skip it and not bother, and with a strong class (or one that doesn't really have the option of doing drownings, like Doombringer!) you'll be fine. But on the other hand if you skip it there's a good chance you'll end up dying and repeating the super-early stuff over and over, which isn't a huge improvement, so it ends up being a sort of bandaid. This isn't good design, but it's a pretty rarefied problem.
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Jan 25, 2019 22:55
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:that is a problem, because Cursed is the moldy leftovers of someone who quit development on ToME and one of the most barren and anti-designed classes in the game when did cursed go from "holy poo poo this rules" to "the second-worst class"?
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Jan 25, 2019 23:36
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Jazerus posted:when did cursed go from "holy poo poo this rules" to "the second-worst class"? it's literally always been a lovely class that people get excited about because it unlocks early, plus that one memey forum post someone made, which was a masterpiece of marketing but couldn't have been lavished on a less deserving target
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Jan 25, 2019 23:40
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That's flat wrong; Cursed was absolutely ratfuck insane due to Surge+Rampage up until the exact moment that movespeed and global speed bonuses stopped stacking multiplicatively with themselves and one another. It was very very easy to take like a dozen moves for every action anyone else got to take in the old days. Then you'd pop your movement and speed infusions and you could literally travel through an entire loving dungeon without anyone having time to react, as long as you didn't cancel one of your buffs by taking an action other than moving. Cursed has a comparatively small toolbox of active abilities and is pretty dependent on its passive and triggered abilities; it's a middling- to low-tier class these days, but still pretty fun for zoning out and doing murders, and great for newer players who want to play a class without fifty billion buttons to press. The speed buff nerfs, while understandable, hit Cursed about 100 times harder than every other class, and it just... never got any buffs to compensate. It's a crying shame. e: also I'm fairly sure I'm the one who wrote the memey forum post in question. I did one for Corruptor, too 
Angry Diplomat fucked around with this message at 00:02 on Jan 26, 2019 |
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Jan 25, 2019 23:53
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Black August posted:Man watching Yulgash nearly beat ADOM 2 and doing all these absolutely insane speedrun strats from ADOM 1 sub-hour is something else Do you have a link to the VOD?
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Jan 26, 2019 00:27
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chiefnewo posted:Do you have a link to the VOD? https://www.twitch.tv/yulgash will have it. 23 January. Grond came close to crushing even that record tonight. He got to D:50 in under 1:10 and cleared both levers with a wand of destruction in inventory, but pulled Fisty before he could permanently close the gate. It would definitely have been a sub-80 minute run if not for that bit of bad luck.
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Jan 26, 2019 02:24
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Cursed was my first ascension and I played it after the speed stacking nerf. Even post-nerf it's not that hard to get to the point where, most of the time, you're getting 2+ combat actions or 12+ move actions per 1 of anyone else's. The Charred Scar was hilarious.
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Jan 26, 2019 02:26
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Jedit posted:https://www.twitch.tv/yulgash will have it. 23 January. Thanks!
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Jan 26, 2019 03:12
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I was talking about Teleglitch earlier, and that got me to start playing it again, and man, the early parts of each level are amazingly tense. Let me try to set the scene here: you've just teleported into a new sector. You don't know the layout, your back's up to the wall, any hostiles you encounter must be fought immediately because there's no space to retreat. The first room after the teleporter has two doors. Either could have enemies in it. You pick a direction at random, pushed forward a short distance, and run smack into a wall of zombies, highly-mobile but weak enemies whose attacks rapidly degrade armor. They're no big threat, but they keep you distracted so you fail to notice the three squids sneaking up behind you, from that door you didn't take earlier. And squids are a threat, they're tentacled robots with doom lasers, Do Not Let This Monster See You-tier enemies, and they've seen you. You can't run away -- they're between you and the area you'd already "cleared", and fleeing further into the level just invites pincer attacks. I hope you're good at making use of whatever small scraps of cover this zombie-corpse-infested room has. And you'd better have an itchy lasgun trigger finger too. Let's just say I survived, but I had to stop and hyperventilate for a bit while standing on a pile of twisted metal and decayed flesh. It is loving amazing that these games can still provoke that kind of primal response even after I've racked up >50 hours in them and mechanically mastered them.
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Jan 26, 2019 06:57
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Hooplah posted:As a counterpoint to everyone saying how great TOME is, I personally have played about 18 hours of it, bouncing off it each time before level 20, because every item in the game has a screen like this I suspect uber-detailed visible stats for everything is a positive feature, not a negative one, for the average obsessive nerd that likes RLs. I, for one, like Dominions a lot and that game so I can't criticize them really :P Turin Turambar fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Jan 26, 2019 |
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Jan 26, 2019 16:30
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Turin Turambar posted:I suspect uber-detailed visible stats for everything is a positive feature, not a negative one, for the average obsessive nerd that likes RLs. I, for one, like Dominions a lot and that game so I can't criticize them really :P The game should tell the player the data that informs their decisions, I don't think anyone disagrees with that. The problem with those screenshots is that those items have a million little modifiers on them. Most of them are basically irrelevant and the item would be improved if they were just removed, because then the player wouldn't be distracted by them and could easily see at a glance what the important modifiers are. When it comes to equipment abilities, you should strive to generated items with a few big modifiers, rather than lots of little ones, even if the latter is equivalent power-wise.
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Jan 26, 2019 17:44
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:The game should tell the player the data that informs their decisions, I don't think anyone disagrees with that. The problem with those screenshots is that those items have a million little modifiers on them. Most of them are basically irrelevant and the item would be improved if they were just removed, because then the player wouldn't be distracted by them and could easily see at a glance what the important modifiers are. almost all of the modifiers on that piece of armor are meaningful -in fact, only its base stats (armor, defense, fatigue) aren't. the numbers are small but at the levels where a tier 2 armor is going to be used, they are fairly powerful. it's most useful for the vim-using melee classes due to the nature of the granted talent, but it's not useless for other classes either. a tome character has to cover a lot of different stats simultaneously on their equipment, but the exact mix you need varies from class to class. switching item generation to focus on a couple of big modifiers at a time would just increase the role of item rng in the game.
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Jan 26, 2019 18:03
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The big problem I have with it mostly is the loving sloppy presentation. There’s a super popular mod that just cleans up the stat cards for all the items so you can actually parse a side-by-side comparison and it makes life so much easier.
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Jan 26, 2019 18:05
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