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fishmech posted:So, cool. You refuse to provide evidence that the US caused the crisis. Instead you're trying to weasel out of it by talking up an "economic warfare" that does not exist and claiming that the legally elected legislature is CIA puppets. That's literal evidence of the United States organizing the opposition and encouraging them to declare Guaido interim president, with assurances that we and the coalition we were building would back them up diplomatically. The "economic warfare" has been proven to exist time and time again, and your denials don't change that. The way things look to people in Venezuela, is that Guaido and his supporters have made themselves agents of the United States in its pursuit of regime change. The suffering that's about to get ratcheted up for Venezuela isn't going to be seen as the fault of the PSUV by millions of people.
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Jan 26, 2019 21:22
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Chomskyan posted:It rules that opposition supporters are complaining about “whiteness” when it’s common knowledge that their movement is way whiter than the Chavistas It owns that it’s only the white entitled Americans bringing this up. It also rules to hear you all complain about how hard your life is in loving Chicago or LA then refuse to believe that life in Caracas can be hell. loving love hearing you call us white elites, I wish I knew I was a wealthy white elite, that would’ve saved me a lot of pain when I started from loving zilch, working for two years to get my parents a plane ticket to safety. I can only wish you could experience what life is like for a Venezuelan in Caracas for just one day.
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Jan 26, 2019 21:30
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I didn’t say any of that. Nice meltdown though
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Jan 26, 2019 21:40
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Chomskyan posted:I didn’t say any of that. Nice meltdown though Sorry, I lose track after a while of seeing the same gringos say the same poo poo over and over.
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Jan 26, 2019 21:42
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:That's literal evidence of the United States organizing the opposition and encouraging them to declare Guaido interim president, with assurances that we and the coalition we were building would back them up diplomatically. The "economic warfare" has been proven to exist time and time again, and your denials don't change that. No it's not evidence of that. You still keep refusing the cause of the crisis, which is multiple years of horrible economic conditions which eventually caused PSUV's first serious loss in free elections, which was then followed by massive political repression ahead of the election where Maduro stood to get re-elected, which is why there's even an interim president. But of course you're not able to address the context events are happening in, because you want to defend the guy who gave Donald Trump a big pile of money for his inauguration. No that is not how things look to Venezuelans by the way. We know this because they already elected every single person involved in the interim presidency years ago, and elected them with the intention that they would challenge the things Maduro and the PSUV were doing.
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Jan 26, 2019 21:45
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fnox posted:Sorry, I lose track after a while of seeing the same gringos say the same poo poo over and over. trust me, if you think you hate it now, i got GREAT news for you about what you'll think when your new best friend in Washington, Elliot Abrams starts talking about the wonderful things he's doing for you. look up his resume. it's some good poo poo.
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Jan 26, 2019 21:46
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fishmech posted:No it's not evidence of that. Basing perceptions of ongoing events on things that happened years prior is delusional. The opposition isn't well loved by a majority of Venezuelans because of their prior incompetence & inconsistencies, and they will be even more hated for being American stooges while the sanctions regime ramps up. Guaido literally snuck across the border to do talks with the United States and our allies where this coup attempt was strategized. The Trump administration masterminding this crisis is plain as day.
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Jan 26, 2019 21:48
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So the UN sec council came and went with a few more EU countries firming up their support of Guaido, has anything kind of come up on the embassy staff situation yet?
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Jan 26, 2019 21:48
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Berke Negri posted:So the UN sec council came and went with a few more EU countries firming up their support of Guaido, has anything kind of come up on the embassy staff situation yet? Non-essential staff and their families have been ordered to leave, and the deadline is coming up quick.
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Jan 26, 2019 21:53
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Yeah I don't recall an actual memorandum coming out stipulating an actual exit time but if memory serves correct we'll be up on 72 hours within...the next few hours, or so
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Jan 26, 2019 22:00
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This is a fun one I just found, bunch of white Americans masquerading as Venezuelans, protesting in Philadelphia. https://twitter.com/JULIOCESARRIVAS/status/1089248079298072576
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Jan 26, 2019 22:08
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fnox posted:This is a fun one I just found, bunch of white Americans masquerading as Venezuelans, protesting in Philadelphia. Are they masquerading when the guy asked them all where they’re from and none said Venezuela? Seems like they’re just protesting, which obviously you disagree with, but they’re not like “I’m Venezuelan and I love the PSUV!” In some cartoonish accent or something
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Jan 26, 2019 22:12
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Frog Act posted:Are they masquerading when the guy asked them all where they’re from and none said Venezuela? Seems like they’re just protesting, which obviously you disagree with, but they’re not like “I’m Venezuelan and I love the PSUV!” In some cartoonish accent or something They're chanting in Spanish lol. There not being any actual Venezuelans and instead only white middle class Americans espousing support for Maduro must tell you something, right?
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Jan 26, 2019 22:29
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fnox posted:They're chanting in Spanish lol. There not being any actual Venezuelans and instead only white middle class Americans espousing support for Maduro must tell you something, right? Once again, you've confused "support for Maduro" with "disagreement with US intervention". Protests in the US against US intervention, which are naturally completely ignored, are also a hallmark of the pattern of US intervention. Should US citizens not be allowed to ask their government not to get involved with another country's affairs?
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Jan 26, 2019 22:31
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Venezuela defenders are up there with Israel defenders. Defending the country seems more like an exercise at this point than anything else.
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Jan 26, 2019 22:31
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Socks4Hands posted:Once again, you've confused "support for Maduro" with "disagreement with US intervention". Protests in the US against US intervention, which are naturally completely ignored, are also a hallmark of the pattern of US intervention. Should US citizens not be allowed to ask their government not to get involved with another country's affairs? Are you actually Panamenian or is it like one of those situations Americans love to do where they're like four generations removed yet still take on some foreign identity due to being ashamed of being white? Because you clearly don't understand what they're saying. They're chanting "Chavez presente, Maduro presidente", not "We're against the US intervention". That's a protest supporting Maduro.
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Jan 26, 2019 22:35
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fnox posted:This is a fun one I just found, bunch of white Americans masquerading as Venezuelans, protesting in Philadelphia. So committed to masquerading as Venezuelans that when you ask them where they're from, they say "I'm American"
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Jan 26, 2019 22:35
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Chomskyan posted:So committed to masquerading as Venezuelans that when you ask them where they're from, they say "I'm American" Let me guess, you're also a white, middle class, socialist American living in a big city. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 26, 2019 22:42
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translation for those of you who don't understand Swedish "I'm an American" - "I'm lying about being Venezuelan" "I'm a Panamanian" - "I'm lying about being Panamanian" "I'm actually a Venezuelan and i totally raised up enough money to buy plane tickets out for my entire family working in two years to escape from a hyper inflated economy" - "Very believable Venezuelan" (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 26, 2019 22:43
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fnox posted:Are you actually Panamenian or is it like one of those situations Americans love to do where they're like four generations removed yet still take on some foreign identity due to being ashamed of being white? Because you clearly don't understand what they're saying. They're chanting "Chavez presente, Maduro presidente", not "We're against the US intervention". That's a protest supporting Maduro. Indeed it is, because the evidence linking Guiado to a new campaign of US intervention in Latin America is clear as crystal. Support for Guiado is tacit support for US intervention. You've heard all the talking points, so now you're defaulting to your favorite canard: "anybody who disagrees with me is a clueless gringo". You're wrong, of course, but gently caress your rhetoric.
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Jan 26, 2019 22:44
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Just considering this was initially kicked off because of the refusal to seat the indigenous national assembly members, what is the purported indigenous representation on the CA? Or is that what all those vacancies are about?
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Jan 26, 2019 22:46
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Der Waffle Mous posted:Just considering this was initially kicked off because of the refusal... This was kicked off because the US decided to do a coup, and the Venezuelan opposition it has been funding for years was like "sounds good lol"
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Jan 26, 2019 22:47
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Blanketspace posted:translation for those of you who don't understand Swedish So basically you’re stating that the Venezuelans in this thread are lying about being Venezuelan
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Jan 26, 2019 22:47
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fnox posted:This is a fun one I just found, bunch of white Americans masquerading as Venezuelans, protesting in Philadelphia. What are the affiliations of this twitter account, and what do we know about the affiliations of the protesters? I know that a lot of the social media poo poo Maduro's purchased is apparently run out of Turkey.
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Jan 26, 2019 22:50
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Blanketspace posted:translation for those of you who don't understand Swedish Lol, this is a new one. Now I'm a Swede? Nah bro you got it the wrong way around, I got a bunch of little gigs and some help from goons over like a year, and with that I got a ticket to Sweden, and not much else. In Sweden I started over, worked some really bad jobs for a while, got a decent one, got my parents into Spain and I've been feeding 3 people on my salary until a couple months ago. It's all documented in the thread, idk what you'll need from me to prove my citizenship bar me doxxing myself but lol. Socks4Hands posted:Indeed it is, because the evidence linking Guiado to a new campaign of US intervention in Latin America is clear as crystal. Support for Guiado is tacit support for US intervention. You've heard all the talking points, so now you're defaulting to your favorite canard: "anybody who disagrees with me is a clueless gringo". You're wrong, of course, but gently caress your rhetoric. I'm talking about the people on the video, which you clearly couldn't understand. But out of curiosity, what is tacitly implied by supporting Maduro, and what are the other options?
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Jan 26, 2019 22:53
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Discendo Vox posted:What are the affiliations of this twitter account, and what do we know about the affiliations of the protesters? I know that a lot of the social media poo poo Maduro's purchased is apparently run out of Turkey. Is Danny Glover an agent of Ankara!? 
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Jan 26, 2019 22:57
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fnox posted:I'm talking about the people on the video, which you clearly couldn't understand. But out of curiosity, what is tacitly implied by supporting Maduro, and what are the other options? fnox posted:Are you actually Panamenian or is it like one of those situations Americans love to do where they're like four generations removed yet still take on some foreign identity due to being ashamed of being white? That's not talking about the people in the video. At this point, there aren't any options. What's been set in motion has been set in motion, and the only countries with true agency in this situation are the US and Russia. Venezuela is stuck between a rock and a hard place, and as someone with extensive family experience with that hard place I'm suggesting you step back for a moment and critically evaluate the difference. The ideal solution would be a Venezuela without Maduro or Guiado, but that doesn't seem possible to achieve at the moment.
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Jan 26, 2019 23:06
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fnox posted:Lol, this is a new one. Now I'm a Swede? The point of that post was to demonstrate your Truman Show delusion, everything fits some sort of narrative, everyone but you is an actor, illegitimate. The only experience that is valid is your own and you feel the need to invalidate everyone else because obviously they're lying. The key is that your experience isn't invalid, but neither is the experience of everyone else. JuulPodSaveAmerica fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Jan 26, 2019 |
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Jan 26, 2019 23:09
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Blanketspace posted:The point of that post was to demonstrate your Truman Show delusion, everything fits some sort of narrative, everyone but you is an actor, illegitimate. The only experience that is valid is your own and you feel the need to invalidate everyone else because obviously they're lying. That's a fantastic way of portraying how some posters treat Venezuelan goons. But yeah I absolutely believe that my opinion on the status of country is probably more accurate than yours, because I lived there, you've never even been there, I've seen the stuff you've only read about. You can opine all you want on all of the actors involved but when it goes to the point of downplaying the humanitarian crisis or refusing to believe just how corrupt and incompetent Maduro is, there's no debate to be had, because we're in parallel universes. One where I am a white wealthy fascist sent by the CIA to prove communists wrong in a dead comedy forum, and another where I am just a guy who happened to be born there, and just happens to have a good command of the English language and an SA account. The only reason why I'm bringing up race is because the absurd conclusion that the opposition is all rich white people happens to be only brought up by rich white Americans. This is an attempt to discredit the opposition as just people looking out for their own self interests, like if they were never affected by the crisis or by Maduro's government. The discontent with Maduro transcends class and race, that dude hosed us all equally, in perhaps the only truly socialist act he has ever done. fnox fucked around with this message at 23:32 on Jan 26, 2019 |
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Jan 26, 2019 23:27
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https://twitter.com/adamjohnsonNYC/status/1088919012593946624
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Jan 26, 2019 23:28
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:The "actual advisor" being agents of the country which is appointing a genocidaire to be their special envoy? Guaido was a fool to think the United States would pave his way to power. Looking at the actual history of US interventions in Latin America, do you really think it is foolish to bet on their succeeding in replacing a government? Of course I agree it is unlikely in the event of a coup Guaido is going to end up in power. More likely he would end up the public face of a transitional government with little real power, and then be replaced by someone else in the near future. You seem to have strong feelings that the people of Venezuela are going to rally with the Maduro government as the US increases pressure. I'm just curious what evidence you have for this? Personally I don't see much evidence there's going to be any dramatic change in the state of affairs in the very immediate future, big anti-Maduro rallies have happened plenty of times before. I think the biggest tell will be with the police. So long as we can see they are still on the streets and confronting protests and riots, I don't think Maduro will be removed. If they disappear however, and crowds can march on Miraflores, then the PSUV is really in trouble. If the Colonels decide their interests and careers are better served by defecting to the opposition, I'm not confident faith in PSUV ideology will be enough to save the government. One anecdote I remember strongly was from a year or two ago, back when the CLAP food packages were first implemented. A NPR news crew were interviewing the leader of one of the collectivos who was in charge of the operation, and he was very strongly supportive of Maduro and the PSUV, talking about the revolution, building a new economy, etc. However the journalist then interviewed his son. He openly and angrily denounced Maduro as a bandit with his father standing right there, and declared he was planning on leaving Venezuela as soon as possible. This was someone who theoretically was in the best position to benefit from the PSUV social policies AND patronage networks. His fathers power over CLAP distribution through the collectivo after all should have given them ample opportunities for bribe taking money making. Yet he had completely turned on the government, despite his father's heartfelt dedication to Venezuelan socialism. Of course that was a story by NPR, so of course we could easily conclude that the people in this story are not representative of average Venezuelans. It's just an anecdote filtered through the selective lens of American state media. Unfortunately because the Venezuelan government basically stopped publishing reliable data about anything in 2016, anecdotes are the best we have to go on. Do you have any good pro-Maduro anecdotes showing the people will rally around him?
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Jan 26, 2019 23:29
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An Open Letter to the United States: Stop Interfering in Venezuela's Internal Politicsquote:The following open letter—signed by 70 scholars on Latin America, political science, and history as well as filmmakers, civil society leaders, and other experts—was issued on Thursday, January 24, 2019 in opposition to ongoing intervention by the United States in Venezuela.
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Jan 26, 2019 23:30
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im still banking on Trump not even aware of the growing crisis in Venezuela and just fuming about the wall in his pajamas while tweeting and pence/pompeo are just going full cowboy on this
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Jan 26, 2019 23:30
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fnox posted:One where I am a white wealthy fascist sent by the CIA to prove communists wrong in a dead comedy forum, and another where I am just a guy who happened to be born there, and just happens to have a good command of the English language and an SA account. to the rest. Blanketspace posted:The key is that your experience isn't invalid, but neither is the experience of everyone else. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 26, 2019 23:32
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Blanketspace posted:you, in the cia? lmao. If the CIA is paying fnox to spread propaganda for them, I'd say they made a bad investment (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 26, 2019 23:35
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Blanketspace posted:to the rest. What experience would that be other than reading Jacobin? No bro, our experiences aren't weighted equally. You haven't experienced what we've experienced, and that's why our opinions differ so much. The reason why every Venezuelan in this thread and every Venezuelan you find abroad hates Maduro is because of this. You don't want to understand this, so you rationalize it as "they're elites". Surely Maduro must be doing something wrong if of the millions of displaced Venezuelans only a couple dozen ever show any support for Maduro, right?
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Jan 26, 2019 23:37
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Chomskyan posted:This was kicked off because the US decided to do a coup, and the Venezuelan opposition it has been funding for years was like "sounds good lol" ok cool that doesn't tell my anything about the state of venezuela's indigenous peoples though.
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Jan 26, 2019 23:38
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Basing perceptions of ongoing events on things that happened years prior is delusional. The opposition isn't well loved by a majority of Venezuelans because of their prior incompetence & inconsistencies, and they will be even more hated for being American stooges while the sanctions regime ramps up. Guaido literally snuck across the border to do talks with the United States and our allies where this coup attempt was strategized. The Trump administration masterminding this crisis is plain as day. You're positively giddy with this turn of events, aren't you? Venezuelans have been documenting their and their relatives' experiences in this thread for years - the hunger, the crime, the violence, the corruption, the emigration, how people were struggling just to survive, how the situation got worse and worse for the average Venezuelan. We didn't much hear much from tankies outside of the occasional hit-and-run. The Maduro regime was so blatantly incompetent and malicious that even they were struggling to bring themselves to defend it, despite their general lack of human empathy. Now that the US is openly supporting the opposition, everything is falling into place again. They're coming out of the woodwork in large numbers. The comfort of the old narrative has returned. Black is black and white is white. The imperalist US, being the only agent that matters, is at its old tricks again, and that is of course the only thing they will be focusing on to the exclusion of anything else.
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Jan 26, 2019 23:43
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Blanketspace posted:translation for those of you who don't understand Swedish the Ahmed Chalabi of D&D
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Jan 26, 2019 23:44
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Squalid posted:Looking at the actual history of US interventions in Latin America, do you really think it is foolish to bet on their succeeding in replacing a government? The successes of American instigated Latin American regime change has a death toll in the millions. Elliot Abrams specifically has blood on his hands. Are we supposed to assume that the Trump administration appointing a Reagan-era genocidaire has any interest in a bloodless resolution?
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Jan 26, 2019 23:49
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