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squirrelzipper posted:I have a Bsc in comp sci, a Ba in comms and an MBA. That’s a lot of initials that are worthless beyond the practical skills learned. Mind you both my bachelors we’re earned in the 90s. It's a particularly lovely intersection of male fragility and just world fallacy where the relatively (much) better labor market for STEM graduates vs. arts has to be explained by some sort of superiority--otherwise (gasp) their comparative success may not be entirely due to their just plain working harder and being smarter.
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Jan 27, 2019 10:04
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Morbus posted:It's a particularly lovely intersection of male fragility and just world fallacy where the relatively (much) better labor market for STEM graduates vs. arts has to be explained by some sort of superiority--otherwise (gasp) their comparative success may not be entirely due to their just plain working harder and being smarter. Well put. And more what I’m talking about. The STEM-grads I know range from actual genius level kind people to mid twenties who are socially awkward and defensive if you say anything negative about tech. The laid back genius? Never graduated, created a bunch of companies, retired by 34 and has a bunch of kids and is a cool as hell dude.
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Jan 27, 2019 10:12
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The emphasis for having a college degree whether you even want to go or not is driven by the notion that you'll get paid more and have a more respectable job than being a blue-collar worker because that's a "poor people's job." The push for STEM education isn't that it's a more meaningful or useful kind of education--it's that capitalists have emphasized it where they require the skilled labor. And once you convince enough people that the only degrees that are usable are STEM degrees, then you'll be able to lower the pay for those skill sets because there's just too many graduates and not enough jobs. We make cracks about people who major in humanities being useless or jobless, but what ends up happening is that people who go to school to be writers or artists get exploited because so much of their work is in freelancing and often unstable or usually uncertain if they get hired full-time with a company. You can make a good living being a freelancer, but you're working constantly and you have no idea what or where you'll be working and no one wants to pay very much (if at all) for creative services. Unlike someone who went to school to be a chemist where their career and academic paths are more obvious, it's not so with humanities majors. But the idea that liberal arts degrees (and remember that science and math are liberal arts) are useless is something capital has convinced you all of.
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Jan 27, 2019 10:13
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DiggityDoink posted:I doubt that Zuck is better read than your average Lib Arts major. Dude is a fascist enabler full stop. If he were actually well read he wouldn't be hosting Nazis without admonishing them at least. He is legit a very well read guy. So, for example, was Stalin. Martin Heidegger, the topic of our newest thread and Definite Nazi, was one of the most influential philosophers of the 20th century. I'm just saying, while your run of the mill gamergate dipshit would almost certainly benefit from a less sophomoric view of social structures, history, philosophy, and humanity in general, there are plenty of sophisticated and erudite assholes running things out there, and they tend to be the ones causing the most trouble.
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Jan 27, 2019 10:13
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It's because the people who employ STEM graduates desperately want to lower wages, so they actively market and cultivate the idea of STEM superiority so within a few years they'll have a glut of wide-eyed graduates with a mountain of student debt willing to work for anything that justifies their piece of paper. Not helping that traditionally 'prestigious' colleges and universities are glorified daycares for the children of the ruling class. Ghost Leviathan fucked around with this message at 10:15 on Jan 27, 2019 |
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Jan 27, 2019 10:13
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Sydney Bottocks posted:I will never stop chuckling at the people who are so deluded by Trump that they honestly think his caving on the wall is actually a grandmaster-level move in his game of 900th dimensional chess. I doubt even they believe it, they're just making up excuses to make themselves feel better. Ya know, that five stages of grief. They went through denial when the news broke and moved into anger. Now they're at bargaining with themselves to make themselves feel this wasn't as bad as it really is. Depression comes next. I don't think they'll reach acceptance though
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Jan 27, 2019 10:21
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Yeah I dunno, I just can’t buy the idea that arrogant TechBros are just unfortunate victims of their privilege. Like sorry, it’s not capitalism’s fault you’re an rear end in a top hat, which is saying something!
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Jan 27, 2019 10:23
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The whole STEM vs Liberal arts thing is a pretty misguided-at-best idea that misses the underlying reasons for it all: there is not and never will be enough jobs. The idea of a society where everyone has a profession and a job is horrendously dated: there are far more people than there is work and this is not only the case today, but it will get more true, not less going ahead. So basing your education on what gets you jobs today is a hopeless tactic: not only is there every chance that things will have shifted due to a glut of people applying for the knowledge today by the time you finish, but even if there isn't it's still very likely not to get you a job. There is no personal solution to this. The only thing that can be done about it is to move society towards a state where working isn't seen to be a moral requirement and where tertiary education is free. Nothing else can really work.
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Jan 27, 2019 10:28
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squirrelzipper posted:Yeah I dunno, I just can’t buy the idea that arrogant TechBros are just unfortunate victims of their privilege. Like sorry, it’s not capitalism’s fault you’re an rear end in a top hat, which is saying something! Unfortunately, a non-zero number of people really think that reading Kant will make you less of an rear end in a top hat because you read a framework for ethics. A lot of these people are also the type that think having a Ph.D makes them an expert on everything when that's never the case and it's not uncommon that they have flawed views on their own field of study. You can shove as much required coursework on multiculturalism in all levels of school down someone's throat as you can, but no one actually has to accept any of it nor are they willing.
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Jan 27, 2019 10:31
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NewMars posted:The whole STEM vs Liberal arts thing is a pretty misguided-at-best idea that misses the underlying reasons for it all: there is not and never will be enough jobs. The idea of a society where everyone has a profession and a job is horrendously dated: there are far more people than there is work and this is not only the case today, but it will get more true, not less going ahead. So basing your education on what gets you jobs today is a hopeless tactic: not only is there every chance that things will have shifted due to a glut of people applying for the knowledge today by the time you finish, but even if there isn't it's still very likely not to get you a job. There is no personal solution to this. The only thing that can be done about it is to move society towards a state where working isn't seen to be a moral requirement and where tertiary education is free. I agree, the old concept of Labour and worth has to change. Unfortunately given political realities and climate pressures that’s probably not going to happen the way we’d like. Meanwhile we have opinions in threads like this suggesting that doing what you love is stupid, you should do what pays. Which is ironic because what pays is what we’re trying to change. squirrelzipper fucked around with this message at 10:36 on Jan 27, 2019 |
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Jan 27, 2019 10:33
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The products of the arts and the humanities are the only reason we have the capacity to dream big enough to need the STEM people to make anything at all. You cannot have one without the other.
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Jan 27, 2019 10:38
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Morbus posted:He is legit a very well read guy. Do you have any evidence of this?
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Jan 27, 2019 10:42
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People from all walks of life should at the very least study diogenes.dude mocked alexander the great , to his face.
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Jan 27, 2019 10:42
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PhazonLink posted:So what did he plan to name the boat? He renamed the one he bought Trump Princess and he was going to name the one he commissioned Trump Princess II.
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Jan 27, 2019 10:42
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Star Man posted:Unfortunately, a non-zero number of people really think that reading Kant will make you less of an rear end in a top hat because you read a framework for ethics. A lot of these people are also the type that think having a Ph.D makes them an expert on everything when that's never the case and it's not uncommon that they have flawed views on their own field of study. You can shove as much required coursework on multiculturalism in all levels of school down someone's throat as you can, but no one actually has to accept any of it nor are they willing. And even if they do eat it up there's no way to stop them from using it to be an even bigger rear end in a top hat. Especially since the ideas of multiculturalism and egalitarianism in America as taught have all concepts of class surgically excised from them and create the 'hire more women guards' people.
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Jan 27, 2019 10:44
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Majorian posted:Do you have any evidence of this? I hate to side with Majorian on this but what the gently caress makes you think he's well read? I know a bunch of Ivy graduates who are dumber than a remedial high schooler.
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Jan 27, 2019 10:47
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There really doesn't need to be a capitalist conspiracy to understand why there is more demand for STEM majors. There are more office/service jobs than blue collar work than in the past. Most office jobs, and especially middle manager types, require understanding of math and computer stuff to be efficient. Fewer number of jobs require understanding of history or political science or literature or poetry. On average, a STEM major will have more proven experience with skills relevant to available jobs.
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Jan 27, 2019 10:55
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KingNastidon posted:There really doesn't need to be a capitalist conspiracy to understand why there is more demand for STEM majors. There are more office/service jobs than blue collar work than in the past. Most office jobs, and especially middle manager types, require understanding of math and computer stuff to be efficient. Fewer number of jobs require understanding of history or political science or literature or poetry. On average, a STEM major will have more proven experience with skills relevant to available jobs. Sure, that makes sense. But that doesn’t explain why people - even in this thread - have to to denigrate the arts. See the difference?
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Jan 27, 2019 11:02
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Failed Imagineer posted:To a foreigner, the most outlandish part is colleges "investing" in billion-dollar stadiums. You’re forgetting the most egregious thing about American higher education: a BS in anything is a 4 year programme.
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Jan 27, 2019 11:14
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squirrelzipper posted:Sure, that makes sense. But that doesn’t explain why people - even in this thread - have to to denigrate the arts. See the difference? I don't think people are denigrating the arts themselves. We currently live in a period where the basic skills associated with STEM degrees are relevant to more and higher paying jobs. I don't think less of anyone that pursues a non-STEM career path, but it's not like the outcomes data wasn't available. We don't have to like that most jobs today are aligned with STEM majors anymore than the aspiring bard 1000 years ago didn't like that most careers were in agriculture. But seems a bit much to make people as silicon valley psychopaths because they chose a career path that's desirable under status quo. The "all work is equal!" labor stuff is good, but kinda think that's more applicable in the machinist vs. office guy context than whether the office guy should be someone that knows calc 3 vs. dostoevsky. KingNastidon fucked around with this message at 11:24 on Jan 27, 2019 |
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Jan 27, 2019 11:22
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You should be able to go to a trade school for a high paying job, not just STEM schools. People need HVAC workers and Truck Drivers to be able to live a comfortable life.
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Jan 27, 2019 11:27
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KingNastidon posted:There really doesn't need to be a capitalist conspiracy to understand why there is more demand for STEM majors. There are more office/service jobs than blue collar work than in the past. Most office jobs, and especially middle manager types, require understanding of math and computer stuff to be efficient. Fewer number of jobs require understanding of history or political science or literature or poetry. On average, a STEM major will have more proven experience with skills relevant to available jobs. The truth is companies don't need people with specific degrees, they need people with specific skills. The latter is not at all guaranteed by the former. And it turns out that entire departments live or die based on a manager's soft skills. Beyond technical proficiency you need well-rounded teams that understand communication and teamwork. People go into STEM with the fantasy that they are captains of industry as soon as they sign for the loans. Lol to that--Asian immigrants are being shipped over here to do that work by the plane load. You need more. For particular industries you want accreditations in the required skills/knowledge, which exist independent of your degree and sometimes even whether you have one. When I read people warring over degree fields I see people assuring themselves they made the right choices for themselves. And to that I say: https://i.imgur.com/pC3Rz1T.gifv
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Jan 27, 2019 11:34
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DiggityDoink posted:You should be able to go to a trade school for a high paying job, not just STEM schools. People need HVAC workers and Truck Drivers to be able to live a comfortable life. As somebody who went to college, and trade school, and finished both, I will happily defend trade schools. Unfortunately, going into trade work still carries the stigma of being a low class job for people too dumb to go to college. Even on the left I've seen this attitude. But doing trade work, repairing things, building new buildings, etc, is still skilled work, and you need competent, motivated, well-trained people to be able to do all these things efficiently. That being said, it would be nice to see trade school more combined with actual college education as well. Going to college is good, even if there were parts I hated about it. Having the opportunity to get out and learn different things, humanities, religion, arts, etc, are very important to being able to grow as a person. Not to mention the social benefits of getting out and meeting new people with new perspectives. People should be going to college to be able to better themselves as people, and learn new things. Going to college because you need a $100,000 piece of paper to unlock a livable wage is dumb.
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Jan 27, 2019 11:37
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squirrelzipper posted:Sure, that makes sense. But that doesn’t explain why people - even in this thread - have to to denigrate the arts. See the difference? That also does not require a capitalist conspiracy, people naturally engage in tribalism all the time
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Jan 27, 2019 11:44
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If everyone followed the "get a STEM degree" advice, pay for STEM graduates would plummet.
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Jan 27, 2019 11:46
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Gort posted:If everyone followed the "get a STEM degree" advice, pay for STEM graduates would plummet. see also the 'get a college degree' advice that was hammered into every American child since kindergarten for the last several decades.
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Jan 27, 2019 11:50
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Sodomy Hussein posted:When I read people warring over degree fields I see people assuring themselves they made the right choices for themselves. And to that I say: This is correct. There is no way to know that a particular course of study or certification is right for you or if it will even get you anywhere. An electrical engineering degree might get someone into a good job, but they might learn that they hate it and end up quitting and being a manager at a Safeway instead and feel better about it. It's easy to have your life's plan laid out once you set sail, but when you're out in the open ocean, things are going to change to some degree no matter what.
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Jan 27, 2019 11:53
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Sodomy Hussein posted:The truth is companies don't need people with specific degrees, they need people with specific skills. The latter is not at all guaranteed by the former. And it turns out that entire departments live or die based on a manager's soft skills. Beyond technical proficiency you need well-rounded teams that understand communication and teamwork. Yes, soft skills are important too. No one is saying they're not. But people with STEM degrees can still have soft skills and have a proven ability to learn specific in demand skills given their degree. Management consulting companies hire a lot of STEM people because being conversant in mathematical/business concepts is important. STEM graduates are more likely to be fluent in those fields than russian history majors. It's just a numbers filtering game. No one is thinking they're "Captains of Industry" because of their degree. It's just they're more than likely to find a job in their industry because those industries still have jobs at the moment.
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Jan 27, 2019 11:53
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Gort posted:If everyone followed the "get a STEM degree" advice, pay for STEM graduates would plummet. But then the pay for non-STEM graduates would skyrocket to compensate. The money saved by paying STEM graduates less is still going to be spent on something.
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Jan 27, 2019 12:04
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KingNastidon posted:Yes, soft skills are important too. No one is saying they're not. But people with STEM degrees can still have soft skills and have a proven ability to learn specific in demand skills given their degree. "Business concepts" is doing some heavy lifting here, as is "office jobs." STEM has necessary applicability to specific jobs. The "Russian History" major is not to be discounted for jobs where he doesn't need to be an engineer. He can't design computer chips, though. Specific undergrad degrees for office jobs are not that important. It's skill and experience every single time. Sometimes that means more education. Sometimes it means incidental or targeted experience. People view college as a meaningless piece of paper, too, and this is generally not correct. It's all training and experience, even if the applicability is sometimes not a straight line. For example, college is the first time many people figure out everyone in that office needs to know how to write. Or what their career interests are and aren't. They build soft skills, possibly without even realizing it. They learn to apply seemingly unrelated sets of knowledge to other problems. Higher education is a critical part of the culture. Looking at it as purely a career certification is not wholly accurate, and attempts by governments to control it for economic planning purposes can end badly, often in roundabout, difficult to assess ways.
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Jan 27, 2019 12:23
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qkkl posted:But then the pay for non-STEM graduates would skyrocket to compensate. The money saved by paying STEM graduates less is still going to be spent on something. ...no, they are not, and it is not. The rich will literally put it all in a hole in the ground rather than pay people more unless literally forced to. I am not exaggerating. Have you noticed the last 30 years?!
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Jan 27, 2019 12:31
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I, for one, tie my self worth entirely to the size of my paycheck.
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Jan 27, 2019 12:34
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Ghost Leviathan posted:...no, they are not, and it is not. The rich will literally put it all in a hole in the ground rather than pay people more unless literally forced to. I am not exaggerating. Have you noticed the last 30 years?! No, they will spend it on overpriced luxury goods, like $10 million for a painting. The artist would then spend that money on other stuff, and the money gets back into the economy.
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Jan 27, 2019 12:35
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Azzur posted:I, for one, tie my self worth entirely to the size of my paycheck. Spoken like a backwards orcish barbarian, while I, as a 21st century american
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Jan 27, 2019 12:35
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qkkl posted:No, they will spend it on overpriced luxury goods, like $10 million for a painting. The artist would then spend that money on other stuff, and the money gets back into the economy. It literally goes into Swiss bank vaults or to other billionaires. The artist gets gently caress all of that. The money does not go back into the economy, they've made sure of that. The rich consider any money that leaves their pocket to disappear from the world.
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Jan 27, 2019 12:37
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qkkl posted:No, they will spend it on overpriced luxury goods, like $10 million for a painting. The artist would then spend that money on other stuff, and the money gets back into the economy. The artist won't be getting ten million for a painting. The auctioneer or gallery gets the biggest cut of that and the artist, if they're even alive and owned the work of art at the time of sale, gets the rest.
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Jan 27, 2019 13:00
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Lycus posted:Someone nudged him awake in his chair and he immediately grabbed his phone. The PotusPhone you mean 
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Jan 27, 2019 13:05
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Ghost Leviathan posted:It literally goes into Swiss bank vaults or to other billionaires. The artist gets gently caress all of that. The money does not go back into the economy, they've made sure of that. The rich consider any money that leaves their pocket to disappear from the world. Swiss banks don't store money for free.
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Jan 27, 2019 13:11
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squirrelzipper posted:I agree, the old concept of Labour and worth has to change. Unfortunately given political realities and climate pressures that’s probably not going to happen the way we’d like. Meanwhile we have opinions in threads like this suggesting that doing what you love is stupid, you should do what pays. Doing what you love is rarely stupid. It is, however, often suicidal in the US. Otherwise I'd still be making pastries for a living instead of touching computers. $8 an hour and no insurance was not survivable.
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Jan 27, 2019 13:20
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Moskau posted:The PotusPhone you mean For a second I thought maybe it was revealed that Trump was super into Warlock and I was confused. Warlock is too good for Trump. 
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Jan 27, 2019 13:23
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