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Digirat posted:looking forward to fighting not-trump in persona 6 You mean Shido? For real though, it's honestly really really interesting how P5 managed to perfectly capture the spirit of America the year it was released in, despite beginning development eight years earlier and in an entirely different country and culture
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Jan 27, 2019 07:21
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RazzleDazzleHour posted:You mean Shido? I think that is part of the reason why it got such a positive reception in the US.
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Jan 27, 2019 08:12
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i have no idea if it was intended and i'm leaning to no, but the most actual woke part of persona 5 was the implication Okamura wasn't really doing anything any other CEO wasn't doing
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Jan 27, 2019 15:06
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Almost certainly not, because the game ends on the note that Everything's Fine Now, Leave It To The Adults. I'm still baffled by that take. I guess it's just trying end on a positive note, but it's super obvious the kinda lovely status quo would just reassert itself, right?
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Jan 27, 2019 20:01
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Bikindok posted:Almost certainly not, because the game ends on the note that Everything's Fine Now, Leave It To The Adults. This is something I kinda ranted about in the RPG thread. JRPGs and anime have this big "everything sucks and is terrible but you have to deal with it anyway." The only solace is "eventually, someday, things will be better." The SMT and Persona games are especially guilty of this but think of also something like Yuna's declaration that "I will conquer sorrow." It's all very Existentialist but all it really does is say "things WILL change for the better, don't you worry. You won't see this change, you won't see people actually becoming better and society improving but it'll happen, promise. " That's what every Persona game I've played has ultimately boiled down to. P5 is just using politics to talk about the same thing every other Persona game talks about which is you got these Japanese kids and they are the hope for how the rest of the human race can outgrow its fear of death or its love of ignorance and apathy. They are paragons of what we all can become. The SMT games are especially big on this given you have to reject Law and Chaos and just keep things as they are now.
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Jan 27, 2019 20:21
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Bikindok posted:Almost certainly not, because the game ends on the note that Everything's Fine Now, Leave It To The Adults. It did? That's... really not the take I got from it at all. I thought the ending was saying "Even though you don't have super powers any more, you still need to work to fix the world" as all of Joker's friends worked to free him. Some of them were adults, some of them were children, but I don't remember it ever saying that what the adults were doing was better than what the children did. Beyond that, the message of the game was never "all adults are bad", it's "the world is being ruined by lovely adults and the awful systems they created". Not all adults are bad, but in order to be a good adult, you have to actively fight back against the corrupt system.
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Jan 27, 2019 20:29
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Maybe it's not supposed to be the overall theme, but this is a take at least Sae has in the finale: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95zWLKbFB-o&t=99s Either Okumura and the others were exceptionally bad outliers and the game avoids real criticism of the larger social issues, or they're not and the ending is soured because you failed to really change anything. Either way the finale kind of undercuts itself. It still mostly works, but it could have been better executed.
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Jan 27, 2019 21:51
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the true ending will be in P5R, duh
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Jan 27, 2019 21:59
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Maybe P5R will include a Hawaii trip where things happen
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Jan 27, 2019 22:01
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Bikindok posted:Almost certainly not, because the game ends on the note that Everything's Fine Now, Leave It To The Adults. I mean what status quo are you talking about? The one where people were using a magical mind portal to kill both rivals and civilians en masse in order to manipulate public opinion? Because you definitely did do something about that one. The team realized around the time of Okumura that they couldn't just brainwash the world's problems away, and also that what they were doing was kind of morally questionable. Thematically, that would have been a pretty hosed up way to end the game, too, where you beat Shido but you don't get rid of the Metaverse and you uphold the New Status Quo, now rid of anyone who could stop you, by reigning over the new world as gods just waiting to stomp out anyone who comes onto your radar. The team really didn't want that - the only reason they went through with Okumura was because of Haru, if she hadn't shown up the Phantom Thieves were basically ready to disband. The ending isn't about adults, it's about everyone who isn't a Phantom Thief. So many aspects of the game, from the polls on every loading screen to the actions of the team revolve around trying to make other people believe in the their cause. When things are darkest and it seems like Shido is going to win, the poll results drop and people stop believing. After you defeat him and the braintrust behind him plan to take his place, that's when the PTs disappear, because that's when it looks like nothing will change. The final two confrontations in the game are almost as much about people believing in the Phantom Thieves as they are about stopping the antagonist. The Goblet only rescinds his judgement of humans when you are able to inspire humanity with undeniable proof of your existence and can defeat him with that power. The ending is a transition back into the real world, where the main character is no longer a magical superhero who can solve all of his problems by stealing hearts. However, you have empowered people by showing them that change is possible, and that the actions of individuals do make a difference. The Phantom Thieves can't magically solve the world's problems anymore, but as soon as the protagonist lands in juvie you see all the people you've inspired work to get you out. You forced the world to watch you shoot a god who thinks humans can't change in the head. You've initiated the call to action.
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Jan 27, 2019 22:44
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Maybe it was just a bad translation at times, and that's why the message kinda failed to reach everyone's ears. Because you know....the translation wasn't great at times. I mean, I like the interpretation above, and it makes a lot of sense, but upon beating the game I did not feel like that's what the story was trying to say.
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Jan 27, 2019 23:52
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Shinjobi posted:Maybe it was just a bad translation at times, and that's why the message kinda failed to reach everyone's ears. Because you know....the translation wasn't great at times. I do hope for future Persona games they stick with one translation company. It'd be nice if R was the Golden of P5 if they just redid the translation all together with one company but I doubt they'd want to pay for that.
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Jan 28, 2019 00:11
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NikkolasKing posted:This is something I kinda ranted about in the RPG thread. JRPGs and anime have this big "everything sucks and is terrible but you have to deal with it anyway." The only solace is "eventually, someday, things will be better." The SMT and Persona games are especially guilty of this but think of also something like Yuna's declaration that "I will conquer sorrow." I get what you're saying, and I don't totally disagree with all of it, but Yuna in Final Fantasy X is a bad example of what you're talking about because she does destroy the harmful status quo that's plaguing the society she lives in. She comes to understand the problem, fixes the problem, and sees an immediate positive change in her life and the lives of everyone she knows.
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Jan 28, 2019 01:04
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Im picking up my P5 playthrough again and have a question I was wondering about asking in this forum. Is there an easy way to find who and where the confidants are in the map? I can see the blue card that shows “someone’s here” but can almost never find them unless I walk up and down every street. Even then I don’t always find them. Am I missing something easy?
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Jan 28, 2019 01:19
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:I get what you're saying, and I don't totally disagree with all of it, but Yuna in Final Fantasy X is a bad example of what you're talking about because she does destroy the harmful status quo that's plaguing the society she lives in. She comes to understand the problem, fixes the problem, and sees an immediate positive change in her life and the lives of everyone she knows. That's a good point and I kinda muddled together two separate thoughts. My bad. But it kinda ties into what I was saying about P5 and one of my thoughts. People get too hung up on the "superficial" aspect of P5. The politics is only the surface of what's happening in that game. Like all Persona games, it's a philosophical piece. Japan of now means nothing in the grand scheme of human history. Persona always talks about fundamental problems of the human condition that have existed forever and will continue to exist in perpetuity. Shido is nothing but the continuation of something that was always there and the game wants to address that problem, not just get rid of the symptom. Politics is just an extension of morality and ethics and a load of other more fundamental questions. FFX is the same. The doomwhale and stuff is just a way to frame more...insightful commentary. Seymour talks the most about it but Yunalesca and Yuna's dialogue probably hits closest at what the game is really saying behind all the fantasy trappings: Lulu: This…this cannot be! The teachings state that we can exorcise Sin with complete atonement! It’s been our only hope all these years! Yunalesca: Hope is…comforting. It allows us to accept fate, however tragic it might be. Yunalesca: Yevon’s teachings and the Final Summoning give the people of Spira hope. Without hope, they would drown in their sorrow. Now, choose. Who will be your fayth? Who will be the one to renew Spira’s hope? Yuna: No one. I would have gladly died. I live for the people of Spira, and would have gladly died for them. But no more! The Final Summoning…is a false tradition that should be thrown away. Yunalesca: No. It is our only hope. Your father sacrificed himself to give that hope to the people. So they would forget sorrow. Yuna: Wrong. My father… My father wanted…to make Spira’s sorrow go away. Not just cover it up with lies! Yunalesca: Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try. Yuna: My father… I loved him. So I… I will live with my sorrow, I will live my own life! I will defeat sorrow, in his place. I will stand my ground and be strong. I don’t know when it will be but someday, I will conquer it. And I will do it without…false hope. Yunalesca: Poor creature. You would throw away hope. Well… I will free you before you can drown in your sorrow. It is better for you to die in hope than to live in despair. Yuna does make the world a better place but the real change is in ourselves. We don't need false hope or teachings. We can, through our own will, make things better. And I think a lot of stuff says very similar things. Humans have Flaws A, B and C but someday things will be better. We can live without false hope, we an reach out for teh truth no matter how ugly that truth is, etc.. But sometimes it feels like the work in question doesn't show this, it just tells us eventually things will get better and we just have to deal with it until then. Which I guess is understandable - we wish there would be no more war too even though we are certain they will. But I guess it's my fault for watching too much Japanese fiction meant for adolescents that I got tired of this message. If things are so bad now, I'd like to see change now. P5 did that better than any other Persona game, actually. It did show our heroes having a positive impact on the world and we can believe people will become better. The SMT games meanwhile, gently caress, Law or Chaos couldn't happen soon enough or even go straight up White Nothing Ending. And Evangelion too since that's been on my mind lately. Shinji has to accept life even though life is pure misery and no benefit for him. Sometimes the work does such a good job of "tearing it all down" and an unsatisfactory job of "building it all back up." Like, you've made humans and society look like total poo poo but then they throw the brakes and say "actually you have to endure it all because there is hope for improvement." This is all very muddled I know. Sorry. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Jan 28, 2019 |
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Jan 28, 2019 01:39
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RazzleDazzleHour posted:You mean Shido? if shido was a fat orange brain-rotted making GBS threads lunatic, maybe
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Jan 28, 2019 02:01
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Digirat posted:if shido was a fat orange brain-rotted making GBS threads lunatic, maybe tbf i cant blame the writers for wanting to believe that the fascist who cynically riles the masses to subvert democracy by promising the moon and to purge the undesirables while actually being in it purely for their own enrichment needed to be a charismatic mastermind who tricks people into supporting him, instead of an impulsive, senile moron who makes only the barest, most transparent efforts to pretend he's not a conman with no interest in anything except himself and his moment to moment desires
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Jan 28, 2019 03:48
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Pornographic Memory posted:tbf i cant blame the writers for wanting to believe that the fascist who cynically riles the masses to subvert democracy by promising the moon and to purge the undesirables while actually being in it purely for their own enrichment needed to be a charismatic mastermind who tricks people into supporting him, instead of an impulsive, senile moron who makes only the barest, most transparent efforts to pretend he's not a conman with no interest in anything except himself and his moment to moment desires except that he comes off as the latter while the game struggles to convince us he's the former, so it's pretty much the worst of both worlds
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Jan 28, 2019 03:57
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chaosapiant posted:Is there a way to download a completed P3P save file to my Vita? I beat the game and wanted to do NG+ with the female protagonist, but i accidentally overwrote the clear save. Never got a response on this, but it turns out you can in fact google and search for clear saves for the Persona games for the Vita, and just import using content manager. Pretty swanky!
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Jan 28, 2019 05:53
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RazzleDazzleHour posted:You mean Shido? As much as I might like Persona 5 to be about Trump with Shido in that role, I don't think that's either what was intended or what we actually got. For one thing, I read somewhere Shido was modeled on Char Aznable from one of those Gundam continuities I can't claim to know much about. Beyond that though, he seems more just like another villain-who-uses-mind-control-to-become-prime-minister, which is just 2007 Doctor Who and probably other things besides that I've forgotten or never seen. However, to me the real way to see P5 doesn't capture that spirit or Trump is to play a video game that does this using literally-Trump (without the name or appearance, so far) and literally Trump's America, namely Life is Strange 2 (at least Part 1). There's your genuine attempt, if not the genuine article. (Not that I'm really plugging that game, as a) jury's still out, and b) I'm on the bit-disappointed side if anything.) I do have a plug though, and this one would be a totally off-topic aside if others hadn't turned this into a Trumpanalysis thread already: the ultimate fictional Trump analogue is and remains the lead in Dennis Potter's superlative, embargoed 1976 teleplay for the BBC, Brimstone and Treacle. The lead is some or all--see if you want to circle any for Trump--of the following (big spoilers): a conman, a National Front supporter, a rapist, insane, and the Devil himself. Compared to that, Shido...well...nah. Fair (though not trigger) warning if you watch it, Brimstone and Treacle is nauseating and horrifying, on an outside chance the most nauseating and horrifying thing you may watch in your life. It's not for nothing Dennis Potter wrote around the time he made it, "the only meaningful sacrament left to human beings was for them to gather in the streets in order to be sick together, splashing vomit on the paving stones as the final and most eloquent plea to an apparently deaf, dumb and blind God." That's what you need to really channel a Trump. So maybe P5 with it's fairly happy-go-lucky vibe, wholly happy ending imo, and talking cat isn't so bad even if it can't really do Trump.
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Jan 28, 2019 07:19
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Oxxidation posted:except that he comes off as the latter while the game struggles to convince us he's the former, so it's pretty much the worst of both worlds .................so in other words the comparison is perfect
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Jan 28, 2019 09:04
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unless i'm missing some serious japanese-political-history clues, all the shido stuff made it seem like the writers wanted to write a "bad politician" while being careful to not actually express a political opinion at all
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Jan 28, 2019 15:07
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Feels Villeneuve posted:unless i'm missing some serious japanese-political-history clues, all the shido stuff made it seem like the writers wanted to write a "bad politician" while being careful to not actually express a political opinion at all apparently his party is a very thinly-disguised sendup of shinzo abe's but otherwise you're right, he has no implicit or explicit agenda besides "get elected, betray everyone, grope ladies in the dead of night" Oxxidation fucked around with this message at 15:22 on Jan 28, 2019 |
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Jan 28, 2019 15:15
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his character is so vague that it's not really worthwhile comparing him to trump or whatever. you can read anything into a sufficiently poorly defined character. IIRC i read some posts saying the womanizing and his actual look was taken from an actual politician but that's barely noteworthy
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Jan 28, 2019 15:26
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I liked Shido's voice and dungeon music. That's my opinion on the character. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2OH_7SblE0 Also I can't believe I only just now realized Flynn in SMTIVA has the same voice as Shido. Holy poo poo. No wonder he sounded great as a false messiah leading those peons to die against Merkabah.
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Jan 28, 2019 19:04
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Onomarchus posted:[plus whole discussion] The only thing Shido takes from Char Aznable is his shadow's design and that's only because they share a voice actor. Does Shido sometimes sound a lot like Char? Yes, that's because Char was also a huge rear end in a top hat who meddled in politics but that's all they have in common.
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Jan 28, 2019 23:08
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Seems like P5 characters being compared to famous anime characters is pretty common. Before I played P5 I was confused about why I randomly kept seeing Light Yagami mentioned in conversations on the game. And even now, he and Akechi have very little in common. Almost nothing, really.
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Jan 28, 2019 23:17
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NikkolasKing posted:Before I played P5 I was confused about why I randomly kept seeing Light Yagami mentioned in conversations on the game. And even now, he and Akechi have very little in common. Almost nothing, really. Both serial killers with a god complex?
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Jan 28, 2019 23:57
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Kaza42 posted:Both serial killers with a god complex? I don't recall Goro having a god complex, he just wanted to get revenge on his bad dad. He talks about justice but in the end all he wants is revenge on Shido. Their role in the story and overall personalities are also vastly different.
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Jan 29, 2019 00:15
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Yeah I was thinking more about this in the shower this morning, where all my best posts are developed. I think they added the random lovely Shido stuff so that you would know he's bad because otherwise we know literally nothing about him or his platform. Also, a significant number of Japanese media has protagonists that do bad things to gain political power to initiate social reform (Code Geass, every single Gundam series) while still being the "good guy," so I can understand them going a liiiiiiitle hamfisted with trying to clearly illustrate that Shido is the bad guy by making him a general jerk.
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Jan 29, 2019 00:46
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Just finished Okumura on my Hard NG+, took me a few tries -- mostly cause I was forgetting the right lineup to match the waves of enemies' weaknesses and also forgetting to guard against a Sacrifice Order if I couldn't kill that guy. Some cold takes: Morgana's turn is very underwritten and something that should be improved in the revision if they do that sort of thing but it still gets me when he comes back and renews his commitment to the Phantom Thieves. Shame how late Haru comes in cause she's not a bad character, just doesn't have much time to develop. Forgot you meet her a few times before/in Hawaii. Gonna make a point of spending more time with her how that my social skills are all maxed. Looking forward to the rest of the game cause the sixth palace owns, and the seventh I had honestly forgotten what it was until I was reminded by some posts here.
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Jan 29, 2019 07:27
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Yeah Haru actually has a pretty neat social link, it's unfortunate that I'm guessing her lack of presence is due to cut content either involving her in Hawaii/Summer Festival. Her social link's story is intrinsically locked to when she joins, so they couldn't just let you start linking up sooner and then it could be a cool surprise when she joins. I think more than anything though, Haru's problems are made worse by The Naoto Problem. In P4, once Naoto joins, no other party member says anything of importance because she becomes the one who figures everything out and drives the entire rest of the story. If you removed all of Yosuke and Chie and Kanji and Rise's dialogue from the game after the point where she joins, barely anything would change. The only solace is that she joins just before things pop off, so once the school festival ends the game drops all the fun social parts and just focuses on resolving the story. Before that part though, you get a whole game's worth of time to spend with the core team to have fun and do cool team stuff. P5 makes this problem significantly worse by giving you Makoto in only the start of the third dungeon, and she takes the Naoto role of hyper-competent leader who drives everything from a much earlier point in the game. Then they give you Futaba, who is...basically the same sort of plot-driving character, so collectively those two drown out everyone else even worse than Naoto in P4. That's why Morgana's arc is so weird, your team pretends he's the leader and they need him when in reality he's totally right to be jealous of Futaba because she and Makoto have completely taken over the role of "leader," even from the MC. Haru joins at almost the same time as Naoto would have in P4 just to get thrown in the backseat of the Futaba and Makoto Show where she's never heard from again. So, basically, I don't think the problem is necessarily with her character, I think the issue is more of how heavily the games rely on certain characters to do absolutely everything which leaves the rest of the cast with nothing to do.
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Jan 29, 2019 08:14
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RazzleDazzleHour posted:That's why Morgana's arc is so weird, your team pretends he's the leader and they need him when in reality he's totally right to be jealous of Futaba because she and Makoto have completely taken over the role of "leader," even from the MC.
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Jan 29, 2019 08:19
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Also worth noting that P3 doesn't have this problem at all despite both a larger cast and having two characters both join you extremely late into the game (Ken and Shinjiro) and I've never heard a complaint about those two being under-developed. That game knows how to give every character something to doKICK BAMA KICK posted:And the game doesn't even have him express that toward those characters, instead it's a totally contrived conflict with Ryuji that causes the breakup. Again, funny enough, P3 also did this entire arc of being jealous of the leader better and turned that into an integral part of the character's arc instead of just a five-minute diversion
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Jan 29, 2019 08:20
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It is a little baffling that as much as they improved in a lot of other aspects (social links, dungeons, battle system), they seem to have practically backslid in terms of making characters relevant.
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Jan 29, 2019 08:29
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RazzleDazzleHour posted:Yeah Haru actually has a pretty neat social link, it's unfortunate that I'm guessing her lack of presence is due to cut content either involving her in Hawaii/Summer Festival. Her social link's story is intrinsically locked to when she joins, so they couldn't just let you start linking up sooner and then it could be a cool surprise when she joins. Agreed, the problem with Haru is absolutely when she's introduced. She's a good character, with an interesting personality, but she doesn't have time to do anything because by the time she comes on the scene there are like a billion other things happening and the story is almost over.
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Jan 29, 2019 08:48
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People don't complain about Ken being underdeveloped in P3 because there's a lot more to complain about him. 
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Jan 29, 2019 15:52
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:Agreed, the problem with Haru is absolutely when she's introduced. She's a good character, with an interesting personality, but she doesn't have time to do anything because by the time she comes on the scene there are like a billion other things happening and the story is almost over. It's not as if the problem is limited to Haru, either. Ann and Yusuke get almost completely sidelined after the fourth palace.
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Jan 29, 2019 16:07
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KICK BAMA KICK posted:And the game doesn't even have him express that toward those characters, instead it's a totally contrived conflict with Ryuji that causes the breakup. I’m a brokebrain who likes morgana but this was frustrating as poo poo There’s some really good room for three dimensional character development there as he has to cope with the sense of becoming obsolete as he sees newcomers show him up at his own role and ultimately shift his understanding of his fit in the team, except no, it’s time to get mad about ryuji existing again
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Jan 29, 2019 16:54
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FWIW I don’t think morgana needs a good reason not to like ryuji, sometimes conflict between people is as simple as abrasion between different personalities, but it comes up so randomly between them that it feels really weird and forced; unlike yusuke and futaba’s dislike for each other which feels a bit less forced and is actually a nice little angle to their characters
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Jan 29, 2019 17:02
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