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SlyFrog posted:Let me add to my previous set of questions then - assuming this is true, what non-liberal arts (e.g. STEM) positions could a person who is mediocre at math and science reasonably expect to get (with minimal additional training, per my earlier post - so not another four year degree, but perhaps a year or so of community college if necessary)? I think one of the last general categories of jobs where you can expect a decent salary with some sort of generic college degree would be a government job. Legal assistant to an AUSA, SSI administrator, etc. More fundamentally, the problem is that what Americans typically define as a "middle class existence" (house, vehicle, job security, health insurance, retirement) is a luxury afforded to fewer and fewer people. Moreso if you were to try and replicate a 1950's one income household. Let's not forget the median American household income is around $61,372. Good luck giving your family a "middle class existence" on that income in most parts of the country particularly if you still have law school student loans. The fact is your degree and experience do have some value and unless you have a burning passion do something specific you'll be giving up a lot switching fields. As flooded as the legal market is now, how do you think your chances are in a completely new field with no experience while competing with kids right out of college? What guarantee do you have you'll be happier in that field versus the one you're in? While there are certainly days I'd love to do anything else (I'm posting from work today, for example) I think you're far better off trying a new area of law than a completely new career.
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Jan 27, 2019 23:55
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If you must go to law school, for God’s sake don’t be a litigator. Get into tax or some other niche practice with high billable rates.
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Jan 28, 2019 00:58
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GamingHyena posted:I think one of the last general categories of jobs where you can expect a decent salary with some sort of generic college degree would be a government job. Legal assistant to an AUSA, SSI administrator, etc. More fundamentally, the problem is that what Americans typically define as a "middle class existence" (house, vehicle, job security, health insurance, retirement) is a luxury afforded to fewer and fewer people. Moreso if you were to try and replicate a 1950's one income household. Let's not forget the median American household income is around $61,372. Good luck giving your family a "middle class existence" on that income in most parts of the country particularly if you still have law school student loans. I think that is all reasonable, but sometimes, you can be so fried out that it just isn’t going to work anymore. Really though, I was asking more generally for people who are being dissuaded from doing law at all. I think there is a whole generation of 20 somethings who are being told everything that does not work, without much direction as to what might work. I understand their confusion and difficulties with finding a path forward. I'm just not sure how to answer it, and thought others might have some positive suggestions. SlyFrog fucked around with this message at 02:08 on Jan 28, 2019 |
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Jan 28, 2019 01:06
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Phil Moscowitz posted:If you must go to law school, for God’s sake don’t be a litigator. Get into tax or some other niche practice with high billable rates. Also, in my limited experience being a specialist in a corporate practice >>> being a general corporate attorney, and working in a satellite office > working at the main office in NYC. I imagine that this all varies wildly by firm, of course.
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Jan 28, 2019 02:09
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The Unholy Ghost posted:I might take this more seriously if not every Something Awful career thread was full of warnings not to enter the profession. Maybe we should start a McDonald's thread that will be the one positive career thread on the forum. extremely bummed i developed a social life and missed the chance to lol at this turd
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Jan 28, 2019 03:09
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Phil Moscowitz posted:If you must go to law school, for God’s sake don’t be a litigator.
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Jan 28, 2019 03:11
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Yuns posted:The attributes that help me are: lol this is the FBI profile of a serial killer
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Jan 28, 2019 03:13
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Kawasaki Nun posted:You could be a CEO or a guru. There are no decent loving jobs that you can get with a liberal arts degree in 99% of the United States. I have a ton of friends go into academia because if you're smart that's one of the last decent areas to work in. Beyond that most of my friends with a degree in the humanities either work in restaurants, sales, real estate, or customer service of some type. It sounds like you're saying "If you have a liberal arts degree, go to law school or kill yourself". I don't know, I keep re-reading your post, and I just keep seeing the same thing. Soothing Vapors posted:extremely bummed i developed a social life and missed the chance to lol at this turd And yeah? C'mon and loving laugh, mate. I've got nothing to lose. How's the money? The Unholy Ghost fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Jan 28, 2019 |
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Jan 28, 2019 03:21
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Lack of empathy but ability to fake empathy Not stressed at all by the thought that I am hurting another person Understanding that other people are basically tools for my own gratification Getting a boner when I see someone else in pain, especially if I am causing the pain Liking the smell of blood
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Jan 28, 2019 03:23
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The Unholy Ghost posted:It sounds like you're saying "If you have a liberal arts degree, go to law school or kill yourself". I don't know, I keep re-reading your post, and I just keep seeing the same thing. Go take some math classes and get a masters in stats or finance and get an analyst job somewhere. Get an actual useful degree. A law degree in 4 years is going to be worth less than it is today.
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Jan 28, 2019 03:27
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The Unholy Ghost posted:It sounds like you're saying "If you have a liberal arts degree, go to law school or kill yourself". Phil Moscowitz posted:Lack of empathy but ability to fake empathy lmao
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Jan 28, 2019 03:44
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Being a lawyer really sucks.
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Jan 28, 2019 03:54
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Roger_Mudd posted:Law Megathread: Being a lawyer really sucks.
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Jan 28, 2019 04:32
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SlyFrog posted:I think that is all reasonable, but sometimes, you can be so fried out that it just isn’t going to work anymore. Fundamentally the problem is that we live in an era of rapid technological change that can impact large sections of the labor force overnight. Despite this, we still expect individual workers to not only guess what occupations will still be around in 20 years but also bear the financial burden of making themselves unemployable. Although this thread is pretty nihilistic the fact is there aren't any "safe" occupations out there these days that are both easily attainable and provide financial security. If I had to guess, I'd say one of the last good jobs to disappear would be sales positions. Or maybe something with robots. Folks who can sell things TO robots are probably going to clean up.
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Jan 28, 2019 06:20
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Phil Moscowitz posted:Lack of empathy but ability to fake empathy If you’ve got that, you usually also have some oppositional behavior so telling people to not go to law school will result in them thinking you’re trying to play them in some way. They will then go to law school to spite you.
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Jan 28, 2019 06:35
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"Hmm, this guy with 15+ years experience who lives in a different time zone is probably going to think I'm threatening his job prospects with my upcoming 170+ LSAT and Summa Cum Laude. Probably safe to ignore what he has to say."
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Jan 28, 2019 07:43
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The Unholy Ghost posted:It sounds like you're saying "If you have a liberal arts degree, go to law school or kill yourself". I don't know, I keep re-reading your post, and I just keep seeing the same thing. Well, only if you skip over all the other posts with other career suggestions. All the stuff like plumbing, wind turbine/solar panel expert etc, aside there are shedloads of various office jobs out there. The only thing is that they are not tied to a profession, so I presume fall below your exalted standards. I ended up dropping out of my course after some sad brains, bounced through office jobs in four different industries until I managed to find the type of work I was good at. I had never considered the line of work I ended up in beforehand. I then looked around for a company with a good working culture in that field (looking at things like Glassdoor and recommendations from people I know). I'm now being shipped between Europe and the US due to the expertise I built up. All this happened even with the crash throwing a spanner in the works mid way. I didn't even have a "worthless" liberal arts degree to fall back on and some job offers did go away after they became aware that I had no degree (oddly enough government work because credentialism is still stronger there than in the private sector). I repeat that landing in a company with a sound working culture and in a growing industry beats nearly anything else. Law is not a growing industry and the working cultures in nearly all law firms is toxic. Avoid. [edit] After this bootstraps tale above I feel obliged to say that I am a white male westerner, I also did have a good base education. vv truth. Munin fucked around with this message at 09:02 on Jan 28, 2019 |
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Jan 28, 2019 07:44
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Everyone I know from my hippy rear end liberal arts school with history, classics, and english degrees all managed to get gainful, sometimes even pleasant employment. Even without grad school and especially without law school. What I wish people had told me before I went to law school: You learn useful meaningful skills in your humanities and social science education, at least if you did your work and paid attention. We've gotten way to attached to the "go to school for job, get the job for that degree." Engineers all seem loving miserable and love Ayn Rand (they are also not scientists, who do the actual useful, humanity improving work). Humanities teaches you how to write (again, if you loving applied yourself), a skill lacking, but needed in this society. A poo poo ton of lawyers can't even write well. You learn how to do research, think critically, and form an argument, the basic skills needed to realize Ayn Rand was full of poo poo and actually quite lacking in the job market. Law school maybe helped a bit with this, but my history degree helped me just as much, or more, at becoming a passably decent attorney as going to a top 20ish law school. And all of these skills are useful as a non-lawyer. Additionally, you may have other skills, being good at people, computers, etc. Apply for all the jobs, particularly the government ones, and make sure your resume highlights what you actually did. "B.A. History Bumfuck U 2017" doesn't tell the employer poo poo, you need to talk about big research projects, presenting your research, and defending that poo poo. It isn't 2008. This isn't a bootstraps post, but for fucks sake, if you can get a 170 LSAT, you can bullshit your way into a decent job with a BA and not $150,000 in debt. Just apply to all the jobs, ignore the qualifications, and don't apply to loving ICE. Oh and learn how to do a loving interview. I look back on my early interviews and cringe. Too honest, not enough salesmanship (don't lie, but highlight good stuff). This is particularly important with a humanities degree. The whole "liberal arts degrees are worthless" thing is spun up by a bunch of Randian assholes trying to get everyone to specialize in degrees that make most people unhappy because they don't see the value in learning for something that doesn't have clear, obvious path to money. In undergrad, they peddle engineering, in rad school, they peddle law degrees and MBAs. My dumbass bought this hook, line, and sinker (not the Rand stuff, just the law school stuff), and here I am marginally happy in a often tolerable job that will put me solidly in the upper middle class as long as I don't have kids, gives me 5 weeks of vacation, and a pension because I am lucky as loving hell and easily could be as miserable as most of my FB law school friends are.
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Jan 28, 2019 08:18
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Mr. Nice! posted:Get an actual useful degree. A law degree in 4 years is going to be worth less than it is today. This is probably true even where I live, in socialist paradise where jobs grow on trees. Just about everyone can get a decent paying job and live comfortably over here, and a minimum of education gets you in the door for relatively high-paying professions, and there's a state agency dedicated to finding good jobs for you to do on a permanent basis. Unemployment is in actual real terms lower than the US and there's full social benefits available while you search. poo poo's so good even the swedes come over en masse to find better jobs. Even here, it loving sucks to be a lawyer and it loving sucks looking for work as a lawyer. Job's poo poo, labour law protections are disregarded, pay's okay but not worth the work and finding a decent job in house or in municipal/state stuff is really competitive. Luckily government has cracked down on trash degrees so now it's only the three universities that offer a law degree, but the job market's still flooded and all you get for all your effort is still one of the highest rate of suicide, substance abuse and burnout in the country.
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Jan 28, 2019 09:03
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Can I take this opportunity to say how much I love you guys? Also stop discouraging unholy ghost (edgy screen name, btw, ghost. It conveys both god complex level ego AND edgelord broodiness. Well done!) we need a new cautionary tale now that Toona has started his 12 step.
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Jan 28, 2019 15:11
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if we don't discourage him now, though, it won't be as much fun to twist the knife in 4 years when he's contemplating the abyss half the fun of Mr. Toona's Wild Ride is that we told him not to do this and he did it anyway
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Jan 28, 2019 17:23
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One cannot experience the dark joy of Cassandra if one does not publicly pronounce the prophecies.
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Jan 28, 2019 17:26
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nm posted:I am lucky as loving hell and easily could be as miserable as most of my FB law school friends are. This is all you should need to know about becoming a lawyer. Most of them are miserable. Every year more of my law school friends abandon lawyering for anything else. I think the smartest one of them was JesustheDarkLord (fellow goon). He married a doctor and is a stay-at-home parent now.
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Jan 28, 2019 17:26
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Soothing Vapors posted:if we don't discourage him now, though, it won't be as much fun to twist the knife in 4 years when he's contemplating the abyss Yeah, if we'd encouraged him to go, it would be our fault.
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Jan 28, 2019 17:30
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nm posted:Yeah, if we'd encouraged him to go, it would be our fault. Oh I don't know if you'd all carry any sort of professional responsibility for that, telling someone to go to law school isn't legal advice. Should be illegal advice though.
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Jan 28, 2019 17:35
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Nice piece of fish posted:Oh I don't know if you'd all carry any sort of professional responsibility for that, telling someone to go to law school isn't legal advice. No, but it sure means I can laugh harder.
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Jan 28, 2019 17:52
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Hey here's a question that might be interesting for you folks: Today a big profile case just ended, a corruption/orgcrime/drugs case where one of the defendants is an undercover cop who allegedly assisted organized drug smuggling in extremely large quantities into the country. The jury, however, acquitted him on all the counts of accessory to drug smugglin' but convicted on police corruption... for assisting in the drug smugglin'. Handy for him though, since that shaves off a good number of years from the possible sentence. This case was the last jury trial we will ever hold as a nation, by the way. Jury's out permanently. (well, they might bring them back at some point, but probably not). Due to the acquittal, the judges felt that the jury hosed up their verdict too much and declared a mistrial nullifying the acquittal and sending the case to be retried in high court sans jury and with new judges. My question is: May a US judge nullify a jury acquittal like the high court just did? Is that possible under your rules? Does it ever happen? There's no appeal after the high court in terms of fact in criminal cases, by the way.
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Jan 28, 2019 17:56
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No, a not guilty is final and irreversible. A guilty can have a retrial ordered.
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Jan 28, 2019 18:14
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Headed to Argentina to compare criminal justice systems. Anyone have any recommendations for activities suitable for law school students? I plan on going to the Igazu national Park and can't make it to Patagonia. Apparently they got prisons with universities in them!
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Jan 28, 2019 18:14
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gvibes posted:This has become the worst thread. im sorry i left you all for a little while but im back now i was a little bit busy with something
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Jan 28, 2019 18:20
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Jan 28, 2019 18:20
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Enjoy the blood of fresh associates
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Jan 28, 2019 18:22
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Jan 28, 2019 18:30
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Got another paid Sondheim gig. Go to law school! Subsidize your late entry acting career.
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Jan 28, 2019 18:37
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nm posted:No, a not guilty is final and irreversible. A guilty can have a retrial ordered. Wow. Sucks to be norwegian I guess. ActusRhesus posted:Got another paid Sondheim gig. Go to law school! Subsidize your late entry acting career. Thanks for the tip, I'll go audition immediately.
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Jan 28, 2019 18:49
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ActusRhesus posted:Got another paid Sondheim gig. Go to law school! Subsidize your late entry acting career. Advancing art is easy, Financing it is not.
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Jan 28, 2019 19:13
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Nice piece of fish posted:My question is: May a US judge nullify a jury acquittal like the high court just did? Is that possible under your rules? Does it ever happen? No, no, and no. The right was near and dear to the American colonists and had allowed them to push back against the English being jerks for decades before the War of Independence. There was no way that those who directly benefitted from sacrosanct juries were not going to enshrine those rights in their new country. The most damage anyone's been able to do to that right was during the (First) Gilded Age when the .1%ers were able to get the law changed so that you could no longer inform juries of their absolute right to decide cases in ways other than the way judges or the political powers that be or the .1% wanted them decided.
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Jan 28, 2019 19:16
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joat mon posted:No, no, and no. The right was near and dear to the American colonists and had allowed them to push back against the English being jerks for decades before the War of Independence. There was no way that those who directly benefitted from sacrosanct juries were not going to enshrine those rights in their new country. Pretty interesting. Guess that's one huge difference between our systems.
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Jan 28, 2019 19:18
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Nice piece of fish posted:Pretty interesting. Guess that's one huge difference between our systems. Note that judges can and often do overrule/direct verdicts from juries in civil cases, though.
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Jan 28, 2019 19:23
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... wait you have juries in civil cases? There's just no end with you people.
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Jan 28, 2019 19:25
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