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Furia posted:I love it that you are honest to god comparing minorities not listening to your uninformed opinions to an actual factual oppressive regime with fascist characteristics
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Jan 28, 2019 17:16
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A group of NGOs just had a press conference where they announced updated fatality figures. The current tally is 35 killed in protests across ten states: https://twitter.com/OVCSocial/status/1089900945608196097 I don't have all the details at the moment but I'm confident saying that the overwhelming majority of the dead were anti-Maduro protesters. OVCS also has an excellent map with details on the fatalities here. For a bit of context, the 2014 protest wave lasted roughly from January to about June, and left about 38 dead. The 2017 protest wave lasted from about April to August, and left about 137 people dead. One of the things that's different this time around is that we're not seeing daily protests yet. Guaido said yesterday that this is deliberate. If things get really hairy, there's no telling if people will start taking to the streets without the opposition scheduling the protests, though. Spacewolf posted:Didn't Chuck say he didn't want it already? I'm honoured, but as I said I'm just too busy to do whatever that entails.
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Jan 28, 2019 17:18
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uninterrupted posted:fnox is incredibly biased again any anti-coup arguments. While nobody here is pro-US-coup, why don't you go make your own thread where you can keep raving and not disturb the sane posters?
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Jan 28, 2019 17:44
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Cicero posted:Pretty sure Saladman agrees with you, he's just being tongue in cheek. Oh.... Apologies then. No offence intended to Saladman or anybody. Except people that believe what he said earnestly in which case lmao
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Jan 28, 2019 18:28
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Chuck Boone posted:
last time there were protests they set a black guy on fire because he was clearly a chavista
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Jan 28, 2019 18:35
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Labradoodle posted:Returning to some news, yesterday Marco Rubio tweeted the US had handed over control of the Venezuelan government and central bank accounts over to Guaido's team, but I haven't seen any other reports on this yet. My understanding is the bank account association follows directly from recognizing the legislature as the locus of sovereignty. "We recognize you as the government, these are your accounts." That said, there are government accounts, "government" accounts and government "accounts".
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Jan 28, 2019 18:36
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Furia posted:Oh.... Yeah, I was being tongue-in-cheek except about the part where the actual Venezuelans/non-Venezuelans-but-who-regularly-travel-there-for-work should probably be thread kings. It seems like you got it right before you edited your post, but it can be hard to tell online given Poe's Law ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law ). OTOH I've followed this thread since the AN elections and don't think it really needs that much moderation. The thread explodes with Maduro apologists for a few days every time Venezuela makes the frontpage of the news, but then they all go back to wherever they came from. Back on topic: I see the new bolivar has dropped by about 80% value in the past month, now at 3200 to the dollar versus 750/dollar at the end of December, meaning the highest-value note is 15 cents... which I guess means cash no longer exists and it's back to electronic payments? Did the sovereign bolivar ever get use in note-form, or was it always too useless for anyone to have ever used it? A friend of mine just came back from Cartagena where he was for a wedding and he bought a handbag made out of the BsF, but I imagine if you look you can already find ones made out of BsS.
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Jan 28, 2019 18:37
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Jose posted:last time there were protests they set a black guy on fire because he was clearly a chavista This...doesn't really deny what Chuck said though? There's casualties on both sides, though it is Maduro who's in control of the military and paramilitary (like the colectivos armados).
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Jan 28, 2019 18:42
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Jose posted:last time there were protests they set a black guy on fire because he was clearly a chavista Which is entirely awful but does mot hold a single candle to the murdered by Maduro’s command, if not on quantity because governments should not open fire on peaceful citizens e: “how could they do that if they’re peaceful?” you ask. Well, the government had been repressing for a long, long time by that point
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Jan 28, 2019 18:43
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Jose posted:last time there were protests they set a black guy on fire because he was clearly a chavista the term you're looking for is whataboutism
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Jan 28, 2019 18:49
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Sulla Faex posted:the term you're looking for is whataboutism It isn’t in this case because he’s trying to imply that the dead are at the opposition’s hand, which is blatantly loving false It’s more like victim blaming
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Jan 28, 2019 18:50
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Furia posted:governments should not open fire on peaceful citizens Guaido supporters have been far from peaceful: https://mobile.twitter.com/JaimarSilvaM/status/1088257606022545410
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Jan 28, 2019 18:51
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Imagine if these sorts of posts were about anti-government protests in the US. Hell, someone told me in one of these threads that "its remarkable that the death counts are so low, when the protesters are this violent. The government is treating them with kids gloves." Which is quite a take to read from alleged leftists.
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Jan 28, 2019 18:54
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uninterrupted posted:Guaido supporters have been far from peaceful: https://mobile.twitter.com/JaimarSilvaM/status/1088257606022545410 Oh sorry, then it's very reasonable that the military shoot the gently caress out of civilians. Carry on.
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Jan 28, 2019 18:56
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:Imagine if these sorts of posts were about anti-government protests in the US. Hell, someone told me in one of these threads that "its remarkable that the death counts are so low, when the protesters are this violent. The government is treating them with kids gloves." Which is quite a take to read from alleged leftists. Excuse me, we’re focusing on Venezuela, please don’t make this about the US. If the opposition protesters weren’t funded and supported by the US and a vast alliance of western colonial powers, and if the opposition didn’t have a history of stockpiling weapons and explosives, I might think differently.
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Jan 28, 2019 18:57
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:Imagine if these sorts of posts were about anti-government protests in the US. Hell, someone told me in one of these threads that "its remarkable that the death counts are so low, when the protesters are this violent. The government is treating them with kids gloves." Which is quite a take to read from alleged leftists. Yikes.
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Jan 28, 2019 19:00
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:Hell, someone told me in one of these threads that "its remarkable that the death counts are so low, when the protesters are this violent. to united states posters, it's just another day at school
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Jan 28, 2019 19:00
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Furia posted:It isn’t in this case because he’s trying to imply that the dead are at the opposition’s hand, which is blatantly loving false I think he was simply saying at least one person was killed by opposition protesters. Negrostrike posted:Oh sorry, then it's very reasonable that the military shoot the gently caress out of civilians. Carry on. I feel like it matters at least a little bit that they are throwing grenades, no? COMRADES fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Jan 28, 2019 |
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Jan 28, 2019 19:06
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COMRADES posted:I think he was simply saying at least one person was killed by opposition protesters. Oh, at least one death happened at the hands of the opposition? Negrostrike posted:Oh sorry, then it's very reasonable that the military shoot the gently caress out of civilians. Carry on. Also: uninterrupted posted:Guaido supporters have been far from peaceful: https://mobile.twitter.com/JaimarSilvaM/status/1088257606022545410 This wouldn’t be happening if the government did not shoot peaceful civilians in the first place But please delight me about how it is leftist to unironically go “blue lives matter” in tyol 2019
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Jan 28, 2019 19:10
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Furia posted:This wouldn’t be happening if the government did not shoot peaceful civilians in the first place Yeah I mean I just don't get how you can say peaceful civilians are throwing grenades. Obviously it's bad for the government to shoot peaceful civilians.
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Jan 28, 2019 19:13
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Scarlet Salazar, a a government representative at the Venezuelan embassy in Miami released a video yesterday saying that she recognizes Guaido as president and that the embassy is still open for business. I'm not sure how diplomatic titles work, but she calls herself "Consul de Primera" (roughly, "First Consul" or "Consul First Class"). The website doesn't list her as the head of the Miami embassy. Also, if you're into tracking airplanes, there's been a lot of activity recently regarding Russian flights in the area. This is specially relevant now because of the alleged presence of Wagner mercenaries in Venezuela. This twitter account is very good at identifying and tracking flights of interest. It's picked up a flight with Russian/Turkish origins heading to Caracas from Moscow. The flight (N49801) is over the Atlantic now if you want to track it yourself with flightradar24 or something similar: https://twitter.com/YorukIsik/status/1089930936207187968 For as long as there have been protests there have been people defending the forces of repression. It's not different in Venezuela. Even after the Kent State Shooting public opinion was overwhelmingly against the students who got murdered. There's sadly a long history of "the protesters are no angles" takes.
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Jan 28, 2019 19:13
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COMRADES posted:Yeah I mean I just don't get how you can say peaceful civilians are throwing grenades. Obviously it's bad for the government to shoot peaceful civilians. Because the government opens fire on peaceful protestors. Protests did not start this way. Feel free to continue to defend the indefensible as the actions of fascists have consequences Since we’re at it: friendly reminder that before the government stopped publishing homicide rates they did not include murders done by cops
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Jan 28, 2019 19:16
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quote is not edit EDIT: COMRADES posted:Yeah I mean I just don't get how you can say peaceful civilians are throwing grenades. The one civilian who threw the one grenade wasn't peaceful. But these civilians were peaceful: https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/1088251039499804672 If the anti-Maduro movement was limited to one person and that one person threw a grenade, then we could say without question "The anti-Maduro movement is violent". That's not the case here. This is the oldest trick in the book. Don't fall for it.
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Jan 28, 2019 19:17
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Furia posted:But please delight me about how it is leftist to unironically go “blue lives matter” in tyol 2019 I don’t know what you’d want the military to do, allow opposition guerrillas to continue attacking them? Much like any other violent insurgency, the opposition is hiding among innocent protestors. Ideally the answer would be to root out those organizing the attacks but the US is threatening military action if Guaido and his ilk are directly opposed.
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Jan 28, 2019 19:17
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I thought leftism was suppose to be "for the people"?
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Jan 28, 2019 19:19
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Saladman posted:Yeah, I was being tongue-in-cheek except about the part where the actual Venezuelans/non-Venezuelans-but-who-regularly-travel-there-for-work should probably be thread kings. It seems like you got it right before you edited your post, but it can be hard to tell online given Poe's Law ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law ). Carrying BsS. Cash in hand is still worth a huge price discounts in Downtown Markets and Transport, so the Bills still haven't reached the point of them being more valuable as Arts & Crafts material but, as we half-joke here about prices increasing by the minute, I can see the Colombo-Venezuelan border regions expanding the Color Options for their Bills Handbags as Monopoly bills become more valuable than our currency in a few months... On that note, a Friend of mine came back from one bureaucratic disaster in Anzoategui (Second time I heard a State's Main Registry HQ lost a year of a Town Prefecture's Birth Certificates) and she was impressed how quick have folks became at folding bills into fashion accessories (Not only Handbags, but also Belts, Bracelets and, for maximum irony, Wallets...) and make a living with them in all the bus stops she had to do on the trip...
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Jan 28, 2019 19:21
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uninterrupted posted:I don’t know what you’d want the military to do, allow opposition guerrillas to continue attacking them? Much like any other violent insurgency, the opposition is hiding among innocent protestors. Taking your talking points straight from the IDF on the Gaza border wall, I see. Seriously, do you not see how similar this rhetoric is to "Hamas is hiding among innocent protesters, so its fine when we snipe kids and medics and blow people's legs off"?
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Jan 28, 2019 19:27
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Chuck Boone posted:If the anti-Maduro movement was limited to one person and that one person threw a grenade, then we could say without question "The anti-Maduro movement is violent". That's not the case here. This is the oldest trick in the book. Don't fall for it. Fair enough.
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Jan 28, 2019 19:31
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:Taking your talking points straight from the IDF on the Gaza border wall, I see. Seriously, do you not see how similar this rhetoric is to "Hamas is hiding among innocent protesters, so its fine when we snipe kids and medics and blow people's legs off"? It’s disturbingly similar; I’m actually asking what should happen here. It’s not like Venezuela has a ton of money to burn on less than lethal countermeasures, but the opposition has a history of attacking the military, government officials, and innocent supporters of Maduro. On top of that, I still haven’t seen a breakdown of how many of these deaths have been caused by the regime versus the opposition. I don’t know if the stats don’t exist or are just being suppressed.
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Jan 28, 2019 19:34
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uninterrupted posted:It’s disturbingly similar; I’m actually asking what should happen here. The government should stop opening fire on peaceful citizens. This is not a difficult puzzle to solve
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Jan 28, 2019 19:38
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Furia posted:The government should stop opening fire on peaceful citizens. This is not a difficult puzzle to solve Also, Maduro should resign, return all his ill-gotten gains to the State of Venezuela. Question to Venezuelan goons: would you be okay with a situation in which Maduro and friends go into exile in Russia or Turkey or Cuba and don't face justice for their crimes, provided that it got them the hell out of power peacefully and quickly?
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Jan 28, 2019 19:41
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uninterrupted posted:It’s disturbingly similar; I’m actually asking what should happen here. It’s not like Venezuela has a ton of money to burn on less than lethal countermeasures, but the opposition has a history of attacking the military, government officials, and innocent supporters of Maduro. It is not possible to objectively calculate statistics on who “caused” the deaths because it is going to be subjective. If a coo shoots a guy throwing rocks at him who caused the death? Or if a protestor kills a cop with a Molotov who was shooting at him, who do we say caused the death? Fundamentally these deaths are caused by the breakdown in the constitutional order which has left people with no choice to but resort to violence to pursue their political interests.
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Jan 28, 2019 19:44
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PT6A posted:Also, Maduro should resign, return all his ill-gotten gains to the State of Venezuela. I would. I would prefer to see them rot in jail, of course, but the best chance for a peaceful transition is a negotiated exit for the PSUV. If I had to choose one motherfucker I'd like to see get screwed over it would be Diosdado Cabello, though. Even most Chavistas don't like the guy and the entire country knows he's richer than Croesus from all the money he's stolen, so I'd settle for him getting left behind during negotiations. Honestly, though, we're going to have to live with the fact a lot of the guys who have looted the country won't end up paying for their crimes. Right now, we already have Rafael Ramirez and Luisa Ortega Diaz campaigning around the globe as if their hands were clean when the former helped dismantle PDVSA and the latter threw hundreds of innocent people in jail to get tortured. I find the whole thing sickening, but we need Chavistas to turn on each other to even have a chance of seeing the country get rebuilt.
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Jan 28, 2019 20:07
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Labradoodle posted:I would. I would prefer to see them rot in jail, of course, but the best chance for a peaceful transition is a negotiated exit for the PSUV. If I had to choose one motherfucker I'd like to see get screwed over it would be Diosdado Cabello, though. Even most Chavistas don't like the guy and the entire country knows he's richer than Croesus from all the money he's stolen, so I'd settle for him getting left behind during negotiations. This. I wouldn’t be okay with it but it does not seem like justice is ever gonna be served on this one
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Jan 28, 2019 20:23
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I would vastly prefer a peaceful quick transition without paying for crimes. Not like another rich criminal escaping justice is new, but then hopefully someone can be done for the people who are suffering quickly.
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Jan 28, 2019 20:28
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...be20_story.htmlquote:Guaidó told The Post that the opposition was preparing to challenge the government’s authority by bringing food aid into the country, aid made possible by a $20 million pledge from the United States and offers from Colombia, Brazil, Argentina, Paraguay and the European Union. Maduro has largely blocked aid in the past, claiming that reports of rapidly spreading hunger and disease in Venezuela are fictions invented by his enemies. does anyone know if the offers of food aid from other countries than the us are more substantial? $20m in food aid is a drop in the bucket, $0.65/person.
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Jan 28, 2019 20:37
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GoluboiOgon posted:https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...be20_story.html the US could just drop its sanctions and allow venezuela to import food 
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Jan 28, 2019 21:12
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Jose posted:the US could just drop its sanctions and allow venezuela to import food I don't believe the US sanctions cover food supplies, do they?
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Jan 28, 2019 21:14
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Jose posted:the US could just drop its sanctions and allow venezuela to import food Maduro could have also accepted food aid ages ago for the humanitarian crisis that began 3 years ago, but he has demonstrated that he’d rather continue importing at a huge markup from Mexican companies who get a cut of his corruption scheme So to answer your “question”: the US could, sure, but Maduro would not want to anyways
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Jan 28, 2019 21:15
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Jose posted:the US could just drop its sanctions and allow venezuela to import food US sanctions do not prohibit food imports. This has been discussed to death over the last few pages. Where ever you're getting your information from is feeding you bullshit.
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Jan 28, 2019 21:17
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