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A Typical Goon posted:Can you name a single country in the past 75 years where US backed regime change ended up beneficial to the country? japan
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Jan 28, 2019 23:12
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https://twitter.com/RaoKomar747/status/1090005450492465152
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Jan 28, 2019 23:13
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:https://twitter.com/dany_bahar/status/1090002723704057856 Obviously that position in a vacuum is loving dumb, but if you read about Carnet de la Partia, you’d know it’s the PSUV party membership card and that you need to use it to get access to welfare programs Which is, you know, unconstitutional but whatever I guess
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Jan 28, 2019 23:13
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:https://www.spglobal.com/platts/en/...ons-law-sources That thing Chavez was did? Yeah I’m sure you shrieked real hard when he did that lol
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Jan 28, 2019 23:15
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Looking at the full photo it seems real clear that this was meant to be seen. Probably Trumps genius idea to try and intimidate.
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Jan 28, 2019 23:18
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Furia posted:Would be very nice if they read up on the couple years’ worth of news and literature they ignored until they got a notification on twitter before posting uninformed opinions but I guess you can’t have everything in life Not going to happen. These 'useful idiots' aren't interested in supporting the people of Venezuela, they just knee-jerk oppose the USA. They don't have actual positive solutions, they only criticize the evil USA. If the USA is against Maduro, the Useful Idiot brigade must support him. Anyone who is therefore opposed to Maduro is a US stooge, obviously including all the venegoons in this thread.
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Jan 28, 2019 23:20
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nice meltdown (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 28, 2019 23:20
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Furia posted:That thing Chavez was did? Yeah I’m sure you shrieked real hard when he did that lol Since I broke my "watch, don't post" embargo I'll state outright that this is extremely normal in the oil industry and big companies even now are happy to work with Maduro, so it's not surprising that if Big G is looking promising as the next leader then they'd be stupid not to do this.
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Jan 28, 2019 23:21
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Furia posted:So why don’t they just keep Maduro in charge and financed so that he can continue to support those jobs? Why not have the jobs and more control, by virtue of the selling party have less power, of energy markets? Venezuela is part of OPEC is it not? Obviously not always to its absolute benefit but they have remained in it. Energy prices are pretty good for the U.S. right now but long term I don't think it's controversial that they'd rather have a weaker than stronger OPEC. It's pretty easy to see which way domestic interest who want to get in on it & foreign business interest would want the country to move in. exploded mummy posted:japan Venezuela would have to prove itself pivotal to U.S. interest in the region, which afaik it isn't.
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Jan 28, 2019 23:22
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Jose posted:nice meltdown Go cry more in the UKMT about it maybe?
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Jan 28, 2019 23:24
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Homeless Friend posted:Why not have the jobs and more control, by virtue of the selling party have less power, of energy markets? Venezuela is part of OPEC is it not? Obviously not always to its absolute benefit but they have remained in it. Energy prices are pretty good for the U.S. right now but long term I don't think it's controversial that they'd rather have a weaker than stronger OPEC. It's pretty easy to see which way domestic interest who want to get in on it & foreign business interest would want the country to move in. Of all the arguments this is the most reasonable I have heard. I still don’t fully agree with it given the US’ growth wrt their own oil exports and that the tweet is specifically about extant jobs in Chevron and the other place, but thank you for your input. I will consider what you have said
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Jan 28, 2019 23:25
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Furia posted:That thing Chavez was did? Yeah I’m sure you shrieked real hard when he did that lol If it was just licenses for exploration then it would be one thing, but if the plan is to sell off exploitation rights then it would indicate an intention to partially privatize Venezuelan oil. His party has also proposed reforms which would allow for private investment in PDVSA, which is just a legalistic form of corruption from the perspective of people who want to keep their resources nationalized.
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Jan 28, 2019 23:28
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:If it was just licenses for exploration then it would be one thing, but if the plan is to sell off exploitation rights then it would indicate an intention to partially privatize Venezuelan oil. His party has also proposed reforms which would allow for private investment in PDVSA, which is just a legalistic form of corruption from the perspective of people who want to keep their resources nationalized. Look up the book Private Empire and be amazed at how instrumental Exxon Mobil was to maintaining Chavez in power by the exact mechanism you are describing It’s chapter 4 if I’m not mistaken, which is titled “The Cash Waterfall”
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Jan 28, 2019 23:30
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:If it was just licenses for exploration then it would be one thing, but if the plan is to sell off exploitation rights then it would indicate an intention to partially privatize Venezuelan oil. His party has also proposed reforms which would allow for private investment in PDVSA, which is just a legalistic form of corruption from the perspective of people who want to keep their resources nationalized. Seriouspost - is there an link to the privatization plan? PDVSA should remain the heritage of the people of Venezuela. Thanks.
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Jan 28, 2019 23:31
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Rust Martialis posted:Seriouspost - is there an link to the privatization plan? PDVSA should remain the heritage of the people of Venezuela. Thanks. It's one of the more than 1000 proposals put forward by Popular Will in the lineamientos of 2013. That's not exactly a "plan" but a proposal that outlines the party's intent once in power. Furia posted:Look up the book Private Empire and be amazed at how instrumental Exxon Mobil was to maintaining Chavez in power by the exact mechanism you are describing Chavez isn't pertinent to the issue at hand, which is the ongoing coup and the likelihood of the opposition to privatize national resources once in power.
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Jan 28, 2019 23:34
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Tesseraction posted:Some of us just read this thread without shoving our views in, tyvm. Unless I’ve missed something I’m p sure you’re not a tankie, so you’re good tbh Anyway, can we all just accept that (a) Maduro (and the PSUV, and any state socialist apparatus by extension) is garbage (b) foreign intervention, especially by the US, to rid Venezuela of Maduro would be even worse Honestly, if this whole thing doesn’t lead to massive distrust in the state as an institution and growing anarchist movements across the country, Venezuela won’t really have learned anything from this ordeal
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Jan 28, 2019 23:37
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:It's one of the more than 1000 proposals put forward by Popular Will in the lineamientos of 2013. That's not exactly a "plan" but a proposal that outlines the party's intent once in power. What I’m getting here is that either you don’t care, you don’t know what you’re talking about or you are a hypocrite In any of those scenarios you would be the perfect candidate for a backseat from posting e: like honestly based on what you originally qualified as privatisation it would mean that in over two decades nothing had changed Furia fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Jan 28, 2019 |
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Jan 28, 2019 23:38
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Furia posted:What I’m getting here is that either you don’t care, you don’t know what you’re talking about or you are a hypocrite I don't care what Chavez did because it isn't pertinent to the current crisis, yes.
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Jan 28, 2019 23:40
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Venomous posted:Unless I’ve missed something I’m p sure you’re not a tankie, so you’re good tbh It was more "not everyone in the UKMT with eyes on Venezuela is coming in here and being tankie af" yeah
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Jan 28, 2019 23:41
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:I don't care what Chavez did because it isn't pertinent to the current crisis, yes. Pener Kropoopkin posted:I don't care what Chavez did because it isn't pertinent to the current crisis, yes. You said it was relevant and now at first and mow it isn’t? It’s ok to br wrong man. It happens to everybody
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Jan 28, 2019 23:42
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Furia posted:You said it was relevant and now at first and mow it isn’t? What's relevant is the proposed intentions of Guaido and his party, not the policies of a previous administration which long predates this coup.
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Jan 28, 2019 23:50
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I don't know why its so hard for the tankies to wrap their heads around that 1 - you can think the USA has a terrible record on influencing other countries regime change but also 2 - Venezuela is in fact in a humanitarian crisis and needs a regime change
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Jan 28, 2019 23:58
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America getting directly involved is the absolute worst idea in the world but it seems as if the morons in charge right now can't help themselves. What a mess.
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Jan 29, 2019 00:01
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zapplez posted:I don't know why its so hard for the tankies to wrap their heads around that the convergence of these two facts is that a US-backed regime change effort should be opposed, because it will put off the creation of a non-awful regime even further. unless, of course, you're of the opinion that Elliot "They Literally Caught My Guys Sledgehammering Children To Death In Guatemala" Abrams is probably gonna do good this time. edit: whoops, the sledgehammering to death was in Guatemala, not Nicaragua; Abrams' contribution to Nicaragua was just moving ten million dollars into the hands of our good buddies the nun-rape squads. Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! fucked around with this message at 03:54 on Jan 29, 2019 |
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Jan 29, 2019 00:01
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zapplez posted:I don't know why its so hard for the tankies to wrap their heads around that ah yes the surest way to improve a humanitarian crisis is to kickstart a civil war, as we learned in the humanitarian crises used as casus belli in every American military intervention of the past 70 years, and especially most recently in Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, etc.
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Jan 29, 2019 00:04
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:I don't care what Chavez did because it isn't pertinent to the current crisis, yes. Astounding. You realize Chavez picked Maduro as his successor, right? Mozi posted:America getting directly involved is the absolute worst idea in the world but it seems as if the morons in charge right now can't help themselves. 
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Jan 29, 2019 00:09
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Astounding. Eh, it wouldn't be the first time an outgoing leader has handpicked a successor who then took a radically different path once in power, though. e: Not that that's necessarily what happened here, mind you. Majorian fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Jan 29, 2019 |
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Jan 29, 2019 00:18
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More stuff to look at for the plane nerds: https://twitter.com/invenezuelablog/status/1090028018662338562 Novaya Gazeta wrote about the plane as it was leaving Moscow earlier today. The Google Translation says that it carries 500 passengers and has never flown to Venezuela. It also says that Russia does not recommend travel to Venezuela, and so individual and group trips are rare. It concludes by saying that it's possible that the plane is there to pick up any Russians in the country.
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Jan 29, 2019 00:32
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:ah yes the surest way to improve a humanitarian crisis is to kickstart a civil war, as we learned in the humanitarian crises used as casus belli in every American military intervention of the past 70 years, and especially most recently in Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, etc. I would love to hear what the people that are pro-maduro think the country should do to stop the humanitarian crisis. Or how many of you are denialists that think the country is doing ok.
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Jan 29, 2019 00:34
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This WSJ article is the best explanation for the presence of the Russian mercenaries so far: https://www.wsj.com/articles/russias-backing-of-venezuelas-maduro-has-its-limits-11548703541?ns=prod/accounts-wsj It makes sense that Russia would put on the theatrics of supporting Maduro while securing their own interests during this transition. I agree with the article that (further) Russian intervention is unlikely because Maduro has turned out to be a horrible associate in looting oil wealth. PDVSA is barely functional as a company and in need of a huge cash influx, which would be immediately eaten up by corruption anyways and so is infeasible at the moment. The mercenaries are there to protect the loot the Russians have already been promised, not to protect Maduro. Frankly, the Russians could do much worse continuing to support Maduro than taking whatever haircut on Venezuelan/PDVSA bonds they'll have to take when the new regime comes in.
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Jan 29, 2019 00:36
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Assuming Russia or China even takes a haircut on their current agreements
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Jan 29, 2019 00:45
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zapplez posted:I would love to hear what the people that are pro-maduro think the country should do to stop the humanitarian crisis. Or how many of you are denialists that think the country is doing ok. I think the opposition should stop doing an illegal coup
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Jan 29, 2019 00:48
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Isn't calling a coup illegal pretty loving redundant? Now tell me how Stalin didn't need a regime change either.
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Jan 29, 2019 00:57
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Berke Negri posted:Assuming Russia or China even takes a haircut on their current agreements I don't really see Russia or China in any special position vis-a-vis other investors at the moment, most of whom will be taking haircuts. Barring them sending personnel into Venezuela to assure transition to a regime friendly to their interests of course. Apparently Russia had already attempted to pressure Maduro into stabilizing the economy but he refused, so they must have seen this coming.
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Jan 29, 2019 00:57
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zapplez posted:Isn't calling a coup illegal pretty loving redundant? Explain to me why Macron doesn't need a regime change https://twitter.com/search?q=macron%20police&src=typd
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Jan 29, 2019 01:00
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Just kidding, I know it's because he's white
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Jan 29, 2019 01:01
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Chomskyan posted:Explain to me why Macron doesn't need a regime change Good thing France has free elections. Now what is different about Venezuela? Also how much starvation is going on in France?
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Jan 29, 2019 01:07
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Also it owns that since the US declared Guaido the president, he's now taking out debts from the IMF in Venezuela's name. Which Venezuelans will now have to pay back, or if they fail to in a timely manner, hand over their domestic policy to international capital. Extremely good poo poo! e: zapplez posted:Good thing France has free elections. Now what is different about Venezuela? lmao
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Jan 29, 2019 01:08
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zapplez posted:Good thing France has free elections. Now what is different about Venezuela? Should we also do regime change in Saudi Arabia and America due to their culpability in the famine in Yemen?
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Jan 29, 2019 01:08
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This has already been covered earlier in the thread. The 2018 elections were fair, the opposition just boycotted because they were afraid they'd lose lol https://www.reddit.com/r/BreadTube/comments/ak1wtu/hello_im_dr_alan_macleod_i_have_studied_venezuela/ef0s31f/ quote:2018 Elections
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Jan 29, 2019 01:13
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