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Apologies again for the Facebook link, phone posting. A Nordwind Airlines 777 has flown empty from Moscow to Caracas, and has parked at the "presidential ramp" at the airport. https://www.facebook.com/315080478611366/posts/1974295646023166/ Edit: Chuck Boone, if you use Facebook, I'd follow the LAAHS, they've been really good at posting relevant updates on this the past few days. Plastic_Gargoyle fucked around with this message at 12:43 on Jan 29, 2019 |
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Jan 29, 2019 12:40
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:Apologies again for the Facebook link, phone posting. A Nordwind Airlines 777 has flown empty from Moscow to Caracas, and has parked at the "presidential ramp" at the airport. Empty or “Empty SURPRISE MOTHERFUCKERSKI, SPETZNAZ!” If the first this could be, like, it?
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Jan 29, 2019 12:42
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Pedro De Heredia posted:I clicked on my post history on this thread and the first thing posted, like two years ago, is: You think this is a sick burn but its literally true. Whatever you think about this situation now, it will always be made indisputably worse by a right wing opposition coming to power. Neoliberal succdems are basically pasties for imperialism and capital so, basically yeah. That's sound logic. If you want positive change in Venezuela it's absolutely got zero chance of coming through with the backing of people like John loving Bolton. It isn't even remotely worth entertaining.
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Jan 29, 2019 13:24
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Yes, it's so true that you will be saying it no matter what happens, I know. If there are any gains after Maduro leaves, they "won't count".
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Jan 29, 2019 13:26
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A thought for those who say that Maduro is bad but American intervention would be worse: you're not wrong, and we could solve both problems at once if Maduro hosed off permanently thus ridding the country of himself, and also of the pretext for the USA to get strongly involved. So if you actually believe that Maduro is evil, and US intervention could make things much worse, then it would follow that you should strongly support the opposition, and also support the PSUV being replaced by the elected and constitutional interim president, Guaido, before any form of American intervention can be reasonably justified.
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Jan 29, 2019 13:32
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not a cult posted:What better outcome? A neolib "interim" president who owes his position to such luminaries as Donald Trump and Bolsonaro? I'm not sure if you're being rad ironic or not, but eating crumbs in a shantytown with clean water and light is generally better than eating garbage in the dark and filthy water taken out of the Guaire, which is the current thing. Will the AN be bad at ruling Venezuela? Maybe, and certainly things won't get better quickly. Will they be worse than Maduro? That'd be pretty loving hard to do without starting a full-scale civil war. Literally any stable government would be better than Maduro. Of stable governments that are worse than the PSUV we have uh... DPRK, and then Zimbabwe is on equal footing to the PSUV? Yes, Venezuela still could fall a long way and get even shittier than it is under Maduro. No one here is advocating for a CIA-backed right-wing dictatorship; they are arguing that a change to a CIA-backed right-wing dictatorship would be almost indistinguishable from the PSUV, and thus also terrible.
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Jan 29, 2019 13:37
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not a cult posted:What better outcome? A neolib "interim" president who owes his position to such luminaries as Donald Trump and Bolsonaro? You may be right, but you offer literally no alternative ideas. If we do what you want, things will continue to get worse and worse. No food, no medicine; just more suffering, refugees, and death.
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Jan 29, 2019 13:40
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Rust Martialis posted:You may be right, but you offer literally no alternative ideas. If we do what you want, things will continue to get worse and worse. No food, no medicine; just more suffering, refugees, and death. But at least he’ll be starving the proles to own da libs!
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Jan 29, 2019 13:43
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This line of thinking is how you end up surprised and bewildered when a right-wing government dominates politics for a generation with broad popular support (hardly a weird thing).
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Jan 29, 2019 13:48
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PT6A posted:So if you actually believe that Maduro is evil, and US intervention could make things much worse, then it would follow that you should strongly support the opposition, nah, what I'd really support would be a popular anarchist revolution against any forms of centralised government, but I guess that isn't really an option for the people of Venezuela even though they have no reason to support the state in any form ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Jan 29, 2019 13:50
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Schadenboner posted:But at least he’ll be starving the proles to own da libs! I think everyone agrees that any time the US gets actively involved in opposing a government, there's a pretty horrific track record of "and then what happened?" So I can understand anyone who takes a strong, principled stand on opposing US involvement in this sort of situation. It is maybe a bit like Chomsky said, that he felt that US citizens like himself have a particular responsibility to oppose their government interfering in other countries. So am I optimistic? No. But I remain hopeful that something better can emerge. Maduro has set a very, very low bar.
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Jan 29, 2019 13:55
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wyldhoney posted:I have not lurked the forums in a while. Are there still any venegoons posting in here? Please holler. There are still a few of us around!
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Jan 29, 2019 14:03
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Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but I spoke to Jesus and he says that the Venezuelan people have been marked by prophecy to suffer and die in order to validate the political ideological beliefs of a braying mob of mouth breathing armchair generals It was the only solution he could find that would satisfy the blood lust of non-Venezuelans, so please consider the needs of future tenants as you quietly starve to death
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Jan 29, 2019 14:08
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PT6A posted:A thought for those who say that Maduro is bad but American intervention would be worse: you're not wrong, and we could solve both problems at once if Maduro hosed off permanently thus ridding the country of himself, and also of the pretext for the USA to get strongly involved. So if you actually believe that Maduro is evil, and US intervention could make things much worse, then it would follow that you should strongly support the opposition, and also support the PSUV being replaced by the elected and constitutional interim president, Guaido, before any form of American intervention can be reasonably justified. Ah I think you are forgetting the fact Maduro is just a humble bus driver that serves as president solely to help the people, he is a noble comrade. Ignore the gold coins in his pockets. Also the story about all the citizens losing 20 pounds in a year is western propaganda. They just all decided to go on a diet before the free vacations Maduro is taking them on.
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Jan 29, 2019 14:09
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If you want a good English source on Venezuelan stuff, David Smilde on Twitter is really good. He's a professor at Tulane who's been working on Venezuelan stuff for years, and he's been really nuanced for as long as I've been following his work. He's anti-US intervention and has been holding Guaido's feet to the fire: https://twitter.com/dsmilde/status/1090227571902558209 wyldhoney posted:I have not lurked the forums in a while. Are there still any venegoons posting in here? Please holler. Yo! EDIT: Plastic_Gargoyle posted:Apologies again for the Facebook link, phone posting. A Nordwind Airlines 777 has flown empty from Moscow to Caracas, and has parked at the "presidential ramp" at the airport. Thanks for the tip. I'll check them out! Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 14:39 on Jan 29, 2019 |
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Jan 29, 2019 14:19
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GoLambo posted:You think this is a sick burn but its literally true. no offense man, but this is really loving cheap talk until you're facing a status quo that involves you or your loved ones starving to death. like, this seems to be a huge disconnect in the thread. All these warnings about how horrible US intervention will be basically fall on deaf ears because the current situation with Maduro in power is So loving Bad. its honestly pretty likely that the US will gently caress things up in an astonishing way (trump etc) but that potential is probably the least persuasive argument to anyone currently suffering under the regime.
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Jan 29, 2019 15:25
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A big flaming stink posted:no offense man, but this is really loving cheap talk until you're facing a status quo that involves you or your loved ones starving to death. This is a cheap emotional appeal people use to justify all kinds of morally abhorrent things.
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Jan 29, 2019 15:34
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:This is a cheap emotional appeal people use to justify all kinds of morally abhorrent things. Also happens to be true.
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Jan 29, 2019 15:42
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The Trump administration is pushing for civil war and that is undeniably worse then the status quo. They are actively making the status quo worse on a daily basis.
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Jan 29, 2019 16:14
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Presenting Nipples posted:The Trump administration is pushing for civil war and that is undeniably worse then the status quo. They are actively making the status quo worse on a daily basis. Mmm, I've seen a few Venezuelans going full accelerationist here. Like, the government is already killing them, so at least a civil war would disrupt their control and give them a chance at smuggling in vital supplies or straight-up escaping.
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Jan 29, 2019 16:18
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A big flaming stink posted:no offense man, but this is really loving cheap talk until you're facing a status quo that involves you or your loved ones starving to death. This would be more compelling if the last dozen places the US has intervened on weren't still utterly hosed up warzones. Your direct comparison here is Syria or Afghanistan.
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Jan 29, 2019 16:25
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Darth Walrus posted:Mmm, I've seen a few Venezuelans going full accelerationist here. Like, the government is already killing them, so at least a civil war would disrupt their control and give them a chance at smuggling in vital supplies or straight-up escaping.  are you sure because I have seen literally zero venegoons advocate for active civil war. quite the opposite in fact!
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Jan 29, 2019 16:27
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COMRADES posted:This would be more compelling if the last dozen places the US has intervened on weren't still utterly hosed up warzones. Hey Greneda is doing just fine, probably. 
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Jan 29, 2019 16:31
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a few days ago someone here posted news about 5000 us troops heading for colombia now i'm being told there's venezuelan t-72s and howitzers moving towards the colombian border colombian border also happens to be the place where most refuges manage to get out of the country afaik, so that seems like a really bad development.
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Jan 29, 2019 16:38
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Truga posted:a few days ago someone here posted news about 5000 us troops heading for colombia Got a source for either of these?
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Jan 29, 2019 16:40
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Oh, poo poo. The 5000 troops thing was just a note on bolton's notebook, I mixed that up, sorry: https://twitter.com/Kevinliptakcnn/status/1090024091787108352 The tanks news is literally from someone I talk to on IRC though, I guess we'll know if it's true in a couple hours.
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Jan 29, 2019 16:43
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Discendo Vox posted:Got a source for either of these? the 5000 troops to columbia was because Bolt9n did a press op with a yellow legal pad that very clearly had the words "5000 TROOPS TO COLUMBIA" on it also it was yesterday like it should be sitting on any news site right now (phone posting so hard to get a link)
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Jan 29, 2019 16:46
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Colombia*
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Jan 29, 2019 16:50
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nvm, the howitzers thing is 2 days old: https://twitter.com/M3t4_tr0n/status/1089521238228242432/video/1
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Jan 29, 2019 16:51
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The government is starting to finally move against Guaido. The attorney general has just asked the Supreme Court to ban him from leaving the country and to freeze his banks accounts (also, to ban him from handling real estate. I think this is aimed at making sure he can't get access to gov't assets). No arrest warrant so far. I don't have the link handy but I think it was Bolton who issued one of his vague threats recently saying that the US would respond if the government tried anything against Guaido or against the National Assembly. Who knows if this qualifies... EDIT: The attorney general also said that Guaido is being investigated for "acts... against the peace of the country" and its economy, referring to the events of the past week. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Jan 29, 2019 |
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Jan 29, 2019 17:41
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DoctorStrangelove posted:I approve of Chuck.
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Jan 29, 2019 17:43
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Thought of this thread as I met with a Venezuelan today and our meeting started with a sad commiseration of how many had left the countey then business
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Jan 29, 2019 17:56
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U.S. sanctions threaten Venezuela's economy as Maduro eyes next move
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Jan 29, 2019 18:02
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GoLambo posted:You think this is a sick burn but its literally true. Why do you keep talking about a mythical "right wing opposition" and why the ongoing use of "successful democrat" like it's some kind of burn? You really don't seem to even be talking about Venezuela at all, just some video game version with entirely different politicians. Is your allegation that there's going to be people brought in to replace the elected assembly, or what?
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Jan 29, 2019 19:57
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Interesting article by Federico Finchelstein and Pablo Piccato (no gringos) https://www.washingtonpost.com/outl...m=.f02660a6cf95 While they do not support Maduro, they also do not support Trump's meddling and do not think is helping a peacuful transition to democracy quote:So what does this history suggest about the probable outcomes of U.S. intervention in Venezuela today? I agree Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Jan 29, 2019 |
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Jan 29, 2019 20:01
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Acebuckeye13 posted:
Goons ain't the only Venezuelans online. I'm talking offsite.
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Jan 29, 2019 20:12
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https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...e-idUSKCN1PN1DMquote:Russia expects Venezuela to make its next scheduled debt repayment to Moscow on schedule at the end of March, the Russian Ministry of Finance said on Tuesday, hours after one of its top officials said he expected Caracas to struggle with repayments. "and it better not bounce or you're a dead motherfucker!"
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Jan 29, 2019 20:15
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C.M. Kruger posted:https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...e-idUSKCN1PN1DM
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Jan 29, 2019 20:21
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Chuck Boone posted:The government is starting to finally move against Guaido. The attorney general has just asked the Supreme Court to ban him from leaving the country and to freeze his banks accounts (also, to ban him from handling real estate. I think this is aimed at making sure he can't get access to gov't assets). No arrest warrant so far. The Supreme Court is discussing right now what to do about the Guaido issue. What would usually happen at this point is they decide to strip him of his parliamentary immunity and detain him, but I'm not sure they'll be so bold this time. Bolton just tweeted a little while ago there'd be serious consequences if someone tried to harm Guaido. https://twitter.com/AmbJohnBolton/status/1090323542812569602
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Jan 29, 2019 20:24
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PT6A posted:A thought for those who say that Maduro is bad but American intervention would be worse: you're not wrong, and we could solve both problems at once if Maduro hosed off permanently thus ridding the country of himself, and also of the pretext for the USA to get strongly involved. So if you actually believe that Maduro is evil, and US intervention could make things much worse, then it would follow that you should strongly support the opposition, and also support the PSUV being replaced by the elected and constitutional interim president, Guaido, before any form of American intervention can be reasonably justified. Ok well Maduro isn't going to go, and the opposition we supposedly have to support is practically begging the United States to destroy the country on their behalf.
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