Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
NIMBY?
NIMBY
YIMBY
I can't afford my medicine.
View Results
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Insanite
Aug 30, 2005

https://www.mapc.org

I have no idea what your threshold is for "good." The "Digital Hub" thing is extremely new and could get good depending on the content they add to it.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

ToxicSlurpee
Nov 5, 2003

-=SEND HELP=-


Pillbug

Cicero posted:

Doesn't basically everything look better with greenery and water features though?

Pretty much. It turns out that people, being goofy, hairy apes that evolved in a place with lots of plants, really quite like being around plants. Noisy, concrete jungles actually overload your brain and make you less perceptive and dumber. Just slapping down some trees not only breaks up the urban noise (both visual and audible) but it makes people way happier.

Elendil004
Mar 22, 2003

The prognosis
is not good.


Insanite posted:

https://www.mapc.org

I have no idea what your threshold is for "good." The "Digital Hub" thing is extremely new and could get good depending on the content they add to it.

I know MAPC well, but they are a good example of good, thank you.

Total Meatlove
Jan 28, 2007

:japan:
Rangers died, shoujo Hitler cried ;_;

Elendil004 posted:

I know MAPC well, but they are a good example of good, thank you.

https://www.escp.org.uk

Or https://www.push.gov.uk/partnership/ as a slightly larger model?

Insanite
Aug 30, 2005

Getting involved in some tenant protection stuff in my community. Nothing particularly radical--increasing eviction notice periods for disabled/elderly/less than AMI households, tenant right to purchase, etc.

The bluster you encounter from landlords (not surprising) and "urbanists" (a little more surprising) can suck.

Housing policy discourse in my young, dynamic, Bernie-voting area so often seems to start and end with "have you heard of supply and demand?" or "tenant protections discourage housing construction," and I'm not quite sure how it got that way or how to undo it.

Mooseontheloose
May 13, 2003

Insanite posted:


Housing policy discourse in my young, dynamic, Bernie-voting area so often seems to start and end with "have you heard of supply and demand?" or "tenant protections discourage housing construction," and I'm not quite sure how it got that way or how to undo it.

You just have to show people why these type of projects are important and why the neighborhood should have it. Arguing that workers need places to live and that there is a need can be effective as well.

By the by, is you city/area super white? Say more than 90 percent?

Insanite
Aug 30, 2005

There's an unshakeable faith in the idea that the market will provided, assuming you get out of its way. You might have to break a few eggs to make an omelette, but eventually private developers will develop themselves into obsolescence for reasons.

If we were like Tokyo (only WRT to zoning--not so much with mass transit, any number of gov't programs, etc.), everything would be golden.

It's like everyone has decided that housing policy is solvable with high school economics and the same Curbed article passed back and forth forever and ever, which is funny until you realize that this is a rising part of politics where you live, and your friends and neighbors are disappearing at an alarming rate.

(Semi-relevant article here.)

My city's about 4/5 white, though people with influence in gov't or activism (or hell, just people who own land) are well past that 90% mark.

Insanite fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Jan 23, 2019

Ham Equity
Apr 16, 2013

The first thing we do, let's kill all the cars.
Grimey Drawer
Brutalist megablocks >>>>>> lawns

gently caress lawns so loving hard.

Insanite
Aug 30, 2005

Lawns are an abomination. I have a tiny one that I'm tearing up and replacing with hideous concrete slabs.

Mooseontheloose
May 13, 2003

Thanatosian posted:

Brutalist megablocks >>>>>> lawns

gently caress lawns so loving hard.

On the other hand, the area around City Hall in Boston is the worst looking place in Boston.

Insanite
Aug 30, 2005

No, we don't bother balancing out our Brutalism here.

suck my woke dick
Oct 10, 2012

:siren:I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!:siren:

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

Thanatosian posted:

Brutalist megablocks >>>>>> lawns

gently caress lawns so loving hard.

:agreed:

Lawns are trash tier green spaces.

Head Bee Guy
Jun 12, 2011

Retarded for Busting
Grimey Drawer
What texts, articles or books, should I read to understand how gentrification and development actually happens?

e: I have a background in cultural anthropology, so I’m also looking for some urban sociology texts

Mr. Fall Down Terror
Jan 24, 2018

by Fluffdaddy
the best single text i can think of in terms of american urban development in the 20th century and why suburbs/sprawl exists is crabgrass frontier by kenneth jackson, although you can also just read the wiki to get the gist of the book and a general idea of what happened to lead us to this point

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crabgrass_Frontier

being published in 1985, it just misses the cutoff of the american urban renaissance as white flight was reversing itself in the late 80's/early 90's. and arguably gentrification is the inversion of white flight, we can call it white return. although gentrification is not explicitly a race based phenomenon, it's entirely class based, as we know race and class are nearly identical in the united states when talking about broad demographic trends. i'd follow that up with how cities work by alex marshall which is a more general overview of sort of the nuts and bolts when it comes to land use/transportation, who dictates land uses and why, how the development process works etc.

for gentrification specifically i'd suggest the new urban frontier by neil smith which argues that gentrification is just a new kind of colonialism, gentrification by loretta lees etc. which is a textbook collection of specific explanations and case studies of gentrification, and a neighborhood that never changes by japonica brown-saracino for a more anthropological look at gentrification from both sides

Insanite
Aug 30, 2005

I just read Gentrification and New Urban Frontier. They're good reads.

I just had a copy of Peter Moskowitz' How to Kill a City come off of hold at my library. I'm only a bit into it, but it seems like a lighter, poppier, angrier summary of concepts those other texts explore.

Cicero
Dec 17, 2003

Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

Insanite
Aug 30, 2005

It's often said that the Ghostbusters were the most effective tenant's rights advocates of their time.

Discendo Vox
Mar 21, 2013

We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.
I was asked to crosspost this here from the retail thread. I want to emphasize that some of the research this is based on is shaky - I am not confident about most of the "blue outline" properties in question. Hopefully this weird little deep dive is of interest.

Discendo Vox posted:

I think I'm underselling this. Let me try to give the issue some scale; let's talk about Seacoast. The below is the result of some googling I did last year when someone asked me to try to identify people who were backing confederate apologist groups in SC.

Seacoast is a megachurch located in South Carolina. It's popular across all income levels and races, but principally caters to the comfortably wealthy and white. It forms a major locus of public, political and social thought among Charleston voters, particularly politically influential exurbs. Republican Senator Tim Scott is a prominent member of the church. It is fundamentalist and very conservative, but they don't burn crosses - they inspire brand loyalty. (This whole vein of research was a dead end, btw- there was no sign that the church was associated with the revanchist group I was looking at).

Here's a picture of their original "campus". It seats about 1,300, but they're expanding it to seat 2,400 soon- and they have a number of other campuses and a tele-church program.



For scale, that footprint is about 2000 feet long, according to google maps. There's a main street to the immediate north, and a weird side entrance in the west, going...somewhere, from the parking area. What is that? Well...



All of the yellow areas are areas I know are currently owned or under negotiation for purchase by Seacoast.

That street leading out of their parking lot? It goes directly to a shopping center, with an immediately joining apartment complex behind it to the South. The shopping center is owned by Seacoast, managed through an entity called "American Asset Corporation". The apartment complex (which has only exits going past the church and shopping center) is also owned by Seacoast.

On the north side of the main road, there is a more disjointed area of commercial offices, law firms, and fast food joints. A Chik-fil-a just moved in (of course). Seacoast owns all of that property too, aside from some small detached dwellings owned by African American families. These families have lived in the area since before Seacoast existed, and are now hoping to sell their properties to the church for enough to greatly improve their situation. Seacoast is beginning to close the properties in this northern section; they are consolidating them into a new shopping center.

You may have noticed a yellow line going out of the map to the northwest. What is that? Well...



That triangle in yellow is a residential development connected to all the neighboring properties by a narrow road, called "Seacoast Parkway". You might be wondering why it's called that. Seacoast used to own it, and were going to build a 6,000 capacity megachurch there, along with their own planned community with residential and commercial development. The local government blocked it (the whole thing has one narrow road in or out, which, well, it's an area that sees frequent, massive flooding- you do the math). Seacoast sold the real estate to another developer instead, who still built a neighborhood there. (there's another property at the northwest corner there I'm excluding for the moment).

You may have noticed the massive industrial looking-thing in the Southwest. Well...no, that's the port of Charleston. I don't think Seacoast owns that. But, well...



I believe Seacoast currently or previously has had controlling interests in all of the areas in blue. This includes most commercial properties serving the port. It also includes the residential properties, where I believe the church used to own the property, and now maintain control through an agreement with the developer that controls the HOA. This includes that real estate in the northwest corner, which is cut off from the rest of the area by floodplains and is connected by a single, two lane road that goes under the highway, in a flood zone, then loops through the rest of the office and commercial properties to connect to an escape route. The properties Seacoast has or currently holds It may also include the public and private schools and community center that are attached to the central north neighborhood, which is wealthy and has a heavy Seacoast attendee population.

I don't have public news coverage of these forms of control or purchase like I do the things in yellow, but it would explain the rate and form of land development in the area...over the course of at least 30 years, as part of a planned development and investment approach that would have occurred at the same time that Seacoast was formed. Seacoast has another, similar campus set up near the other major port in the Charleston area. This is probably not a coincidence.

All of this is to say that retail should always be understood partially in terms of real estate ownership, because that scale of institutional investment and control will gladly set up retail as a part of a much, much longer-term scheme. Seacoast and its owners are enthusiastic amateurs compared to actual, dedicated real estate developers.

Mooseontheloose
May 13, 2003

Insanite posted:

It's often said that the Ghostbusters were the most effective tenant's rights advocates of their time.

Well unless you are living impaired.

Insanite
Aug 30, 2005

That's when Beetlejuice takes over. He's tough, but fair.

e: This is floating around and might be interesting to you if you're ITT. Sorry for the Richard Florida exposure, but the paper's behind an academic paywall.

Does Upzoning Boost the Housing Supply and Lower Prices? Maybe Not.

Insanite fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Feb 1, 2019

Insanite
Aug 30, 2005

Hey, dead thread. This is a neat post:

Why American Costs Are So High (Work-in-Progress)

Levy places a lot of the blame for stupid American transit project costs on culture and process rather than traditional bugaboos, like dastardly unions.

Instant Sunrise
Apr 12, 2007


The manger babies don't have feelings. You said it yourself.
But it’s gotta be unions because I already hate unions, that’s why costs are so high in famously pro-union right to work states and costs are so low in the famously anti-union France.

Insanite
Aug 30, 2005

He does have a post refuting the union stuff more directly, if you're into that scene: https://pedestrianobservations.com/2019/01/08/meme-weeding-unions-and-construction-costs/

Elendil004
Mar 22, 2003

The prognosis
is not good.


Interesting Tom Scott video on a Scottish building that's too historic to tear down, but too run down and graffitied to do anything else with:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtkmDmMzZO8

Elendil004
Mar 22, 2003

The prognosis
is not good.


I love how cake and eat it too towns can be. "We want economic growth and new jobs but no changes to taxes and we don't want to develop anything"

Badger of Basra
Jul 26, 2007

https://twitter.com/JSadikKhan/status/1106678391007264768

This is also a good time to point out that in some states (or maybe federally? idk) road widening is considered good for the environment because it allows cars to go faster.

So putting a train in that has a level crossing with a road is bad for the environment because it slows down the cars.

Mooseontheloose
May 13, 2003

Badger of Basra posted:

https://twitter.com/JSadikKhan/status/1106678391007264768

This is also a good time to point out that in some states (or maybe federally? idk) road widening is considered good for the environment because it allows cars to go faster.

So putting a train in that has a level crossing with a road is bad for the environment because it slows down the cars.

Our lack of city planning post World War II is galling to say the least. Paving over tracks in the 60s to 80s was even worse.

Insanite
Aug 30, 2005

Nothing can be solved, seemingly, unless we heavily restrict private car use and decommodify housing.

That’s how it feels, anyway.

Cicero
Dec 17, 2003

Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.
I don't really see what "commodity" housing has to do with being terrible at urbanism.

Now, houses as investments are bad because they incentivize people to support policies that restrict supply and thus increase the value of their investments. It's like letting Apple and Samsung vote on whether other companies should be allowed to make smartphones.

Mooseontheloose
May 13, 2003

Cicero posted:

I don't really see what "commodity" housing has to do with being terrible at urbanism.

Now, houses as investments are bad because they incentivize people to support policies that restrict supply and thus increase the value of their investments. It's like letting Apple and Samsung vote on whether other companies should be allowed to make smartphones.

Also ownership opportunities in cities right now essentially is buying condos and renting them out at a ludicrous price to make a profit on them. And to launder money.

ToxicSlurpee
Nov 5, 2003

-=SEND HELP=-


Pillbug
What would probably help the most would be to discard the idea that the Right Way to Live is to own a big rear end house in the suburbs with a big rear end yard. Ideally we would get closer to the days where you lived either in the place you worked or really close to it.

Remulak
Jun 8, 2001
I can't count to four.
Yams Fan

ToxicSlurpee posted:

Ideally we would get closer to the days where you lived either in the place you worked or really close to it.
It would also be great if we could opt out of the monetary system. Perhaps employers could provide an alternative currency, or 'script' that could be used in their benevolently provided housing?

ProperGanderPusher
Jan 13, 2012




Remulak posted:

It would also be great if we could opt out of the monetary system. Perhaps employers could provide an alternative currency, or 'script' that could be used in their benevolently provided housing?

I think he’s talking about shopkeepers living directly above their businesses like Polk Street in Frank Norris’ McTeague, not company towns.

ToxicSlurpee
Nov 5, 2003

-=SEND HELP=-


Pillbug

ProperGanderPusher posted:

I think he’s talking about shopkeepers living directly above their businesses like Polk Street in Frank Norris’ McTeague, not company towns.

It's this. Up until very recently people generally lived very close to where they worked often in the same building. The smith's house was also probably his shop so if you needed a new tool made you just paid him a visit.

Mr. Fall Down Terror
Jan 24, 2018

by Fluffdaddy

ToxicSlurpee posted:

It's this. Up until very recently people generally lived very close to where they worked often in the same building. The smith's house was also probably his shop so if you needed a new tool made you just paid him a visit.

aside from single use zoning, a big reason why this went away is expanded transportation capabilities making for easier commutes. suburbs didn't begin with cars, they began (arguably) with railroads, and depending on what you want to call a suburb they go back even farther than that. you can't really put the genie back in that bottle

tradespeople and agriculturalists definitely used to (and still do, somewhat - especially in agriculture) combine residence and workplace in the same location, but what does that mean for service sector workers in a context of high labor mobility? and even in ye olde times, tons of people didn't live immediately adjacent to their workplace, it just seems that way because cities were much smaller when the primary method of commuting was by foot

Mr. Fall Down Terror fucked around with this message at 05:58 on Mar 18, 2019

vyelkin
Jan 2, 2011

luxury handset posted:

aside from single use zoning, a big reason why this went away is expanded transportation capabilities making for easier commutes. suburbs didn't begin with cars, they began (arguably) with railroads, and depending on what you want to call a suburb they go back even farther than that. you can't really put the genie back in that bottle

tradespeople and agriculturalists definitely used to (and still do, somewhat - especially in agriculture) combine residence and workplace in the same location, but what does that mean for service sector workers in a context of high labor mobility? and even in ye olde times, tons of people didn't live immediately adjacent to their workplace, it just seems that way because cities were much smaller when the primary method of commuting was by foot

Considering "streetcar suburbs" were a thing long before cars, you're absolutely right. That being said, the existence of streetcar suburbs also demonstrates that with proper public transit, you don't have to rely on cars to get to a job, even one that's far away. It means planning your life more around pubic transit routes, but if we were actually willing to invest the necessary money and resources in expanding public transit into real and efficient networks it's not so far-fetched.

It's also important to remember that cars aren't just killing us from climate change, they're also killing us from regular old smog and air pollution.

quote:

The Exhale (Exploration of Health and Lungs in the Environment) study tested the lung volume of eight and nine-year-old children in more than 25 schools in east London, and the findings were shocking. As a result of the high levels of traffic pollution, the children’s lung capacity had been stunted. Dr Ian Mudway, a respiratory toxicologist at King’s College London, said at the time: “The data show that traffic pollution stops children’s lungs growing properly … by eight-to-nine-years-old, children from the most polluted areas have 5-10% less lung capacity and they may never get that back.”

In fact, that research was merely the latest in a long line of studies around the world that had reached the same conclusion: children living near busy roads grew up with stunted lungs. The Californian Children’s Health Study, ongoing since 1993, measures the lung function of thousands of schoolchildren over five-to-seven-year periods. Living within a third of a mile from a motorway was associated with a 2% reduction in lung capacity. In particular, exposure to NO₂ (nitrogen dioxide, a gas that comes from vehicle fumes and boilers) and PM2.5 (tiny particles suspended in the air) damages our lungs and can even enter our bloodstream.

The effects can be devastating, and we are only just beginning to discover their true extent. Last week scientists put the number of early deaths caused worldwide by air pollution at double previous estimates: 8.8 million a year, according to research published in the European Heart Journal, meaning toxic air is killing more people than tobacco smoking.

Cars are killing us with climate change, they're killing us with air pollution, and they're killing us with sedentary lifestyles. If we priced those externalities into the cost of owning and driving a car, and regulated cars to try and minimize these externalities (by doing things like banning diesel cars outright) they would be much more expensive and much rarer than they are now. Instead we give them enormous subsidies and design cities so that they don't work without mass car ownership.

side_burned
Nov 3, 2004

My mother is a fish.
Cars are the enemy of human happiness.

friendbot2000
May 1, 2011

side_burned posted:

Cars are the enemy of human happiness.

drat straight. I have to argue with NIMBYs and racists alllllllll the time about transit ridership
Yes, NIMBYism and racism are pretty much two sides of the same coin cuz "muh property values". The arguement about low ridership means people arent going to ride transit is super dumb because what it actually means is that transit isnt reaching people that need it so they should expand instead of contract.

As a Virginian, a line that has at least 3 stops in Fairfax would be a HUGE boon to ridership because of GMU and how loving huge Fairfax is getting.

1 in Fair Oaks Mall
1 directly in GMU

The thing is that since Metro in DC is the result of an Interstate Compact the people you have to put pressure on the local governments to put pressure on the board. Waaaaay too many people think Metro is controlled by the feds and thats the way WMATA likes it.

In short, if you want cars to start dying off two things need to start happening: population densification(gently caress you and your 2 acre plot suburbs), and expanded transit options. Go to your local government hearings and start making noise because NIMBYs will turn out in droves from several districts over to protest any change that benefits brown people or threatens their selfish interests. We had someone come from 3 districts over to protest development near a school district that their kids didnt even go to lol

Cugel the Clever
Apr 5, 2009
I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA
The topic of San Francisco home prices and hours-long commutes came up in the company-wide general chat channel a bit ago (Midwestern company, for reference). Everyone talking about how ridiculous it all was without really addressing solutions, until one guy pops in and says "wow, wouldn't it be nice if more multi-family buildings were built closer to where the jobs are and on major transit lines? It's a shame wealthy single-family house owners are actively blocking them there!"

Immediate response from otherwise very intelligent coworkers: "excuse me? I wouldn't want someone to replace MY house, either!" and "pffft, there are too many high-rise office buildings as it is--we should just distribute companies' offices better throughout the region!"

People have a tough time looking at a problem from outside the frame of reference they're comfortable with.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Insanite
Aug 30, 2005

Say I’m in a neighborhood of two- and three- story multifamily homes in a streetcar suburb. I’ve lived here for a decade or two, I have kids in the school system, and I love the feel and routine of where I live.

Why shouldn’t I feel anxious about, for example, zoning changes that would permit large, tall apartment buildings from being erected on all sides of my home? How do you sell that to me?

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply