Bonfire of the Genres: Critical Looks Sci-Fi and Fantasy

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Lex Neville: Apr 15, 2009

I was reading this when you posted the Tolkien thing, you might enjoy it

https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2019/01/21/can-a-translation-be-a-masterpiece-too/

# ? Jan 31, 2019 00:55

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 10:21

TheGreatEvilKing: Mar 28, 2016

I'm confused how you get LGBT anything out of a story where there's no actual sex and the only relationships are straight, chaste marriages?

# ? Jan 31, 2019 04:45

chernobyl kinsman: Mar 18, 2007; a friend of the friendly atom; Soiled Meat

TheGreatEvilKing posted:

I'm confused how you get LGBT anything out of a story where there's no actual sex and the only relationships are straight, chaste marriages?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlJgD4GuDVs&t=12s

# ? Jan 31, 2019 05:24

Eugene V. Dubstep: Oct 4, 2013; Can't post for 8 years!

TheGreatEvilKing posted:

I'm confused how you get LGBT anything out of a story where there's no actual sex and the only relationships are straight, chaste marriages?

Off the top of my head, the eroticism of violence is often emphasized/foregrounded through word choice in, say, war poetry. A few suggestive synonym-substitutions can turn a sentence gay faster than fluoride.

# ? Jan 31, 2019 09:31

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

TheGreatEvilKing posted:

I'm confused how you get LGBT anything out of a story where there's no actual sex and the only relationships are straight, chaste marriages?

lol

# ? Jan 31, 2019 14:28

uberkeyzer: Jul 10, 2006; u did it again

There was a lot of handwringing about BotL getting probed but I�ve read the last ten pages of this thread and it got a lot more interesting because Mel, Chernobyl et al were actually willing to engage. Good job everybody. Also, go read Earthsea esp the Tombs of Atuan.

# ? Jan 31, 2019 15:08

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

uberkeyzer posted:

There was a lot of handwringing about BotL getting probed but I�ve read the last ten pages of this thread and it got a lot more interesting because Mel, Chernobyl et al were actually willing to engage. Good job everybody. Also, go read Earthsea esp the Tombs of Atuan.

While I appreciate the compliment I refuse to be used to defend the persecution of human rights hero BravestoftheLamps

# ? Jan 31, 2019 15:10

Antivehicular: Dec 30, 2011; I wanna sing one for the cars
That are right now headed silent down the highway
And it's dark and there is nobody driving And something has got to give

TheGreatEvilKing posted:

I'm confused how you get LGBT anything out of a story where there's no actual sex and the only relationships are straight, chaste marriages?

Intense emotional relationships between characters of the same sex in homosocial environments. I wouldn't say it's a correct reading, at least not if you go by authorial intent, but it's pretty straightforward.

# ? Jan 31, 2019 15:29

my bony fealty: Oct 1, 2008

every Hobbit is gay. the Shire is an idealized LGBT neighborhood.

# ? Jan 31, 2019 16:09

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Antivehicular posted:

least not if you go by authorial intent.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

# ? Jan 31, 2019 16:15

Antivehicular: Dec 30, 2011; I wanna sing one for the cars
That are right now headed silent down the highway
And it's dark and there is nobody driving And something has got to give

yeah I probably shouldn't have thrown a rock at that hornet's nest

(I have seen people argue on the Internet that LGBT content in LotR was totally intentional because Tolkien had definitely seen his fellow soldiers fall in love with each other during WWI, which is amazing)

# ? Jan 31, 2019 16:28

lofi: Apr 2, 2018

That little guy sure loved fingering the ring, etc.

# ? Jan 31, 2019 18:20

Pacho: Jun 9, 2010

The parting of Sam and Frodo can be read as Sam being bi. Also, Sam is totally bi

hackbunny posted:

making the homoeroticism of Moby Dick more explicit

Moby Penis

# ? Jan 31, 2019 18:23

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

I remember someone made a movie version of Billy Budd that was just unapologetically gay as gently caress

# ? Jan 31, 2019 18:35

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

hackbunny posted:

No idea if thread-appropriate, but IDGAF YOLO

A new Italian translation of The Lord of the Rings is coming out, and it's already a can of worms. The books were originally translated in 1967 by noblewoman Vittoria Alliata di Villafranca, when she was still a 17 year old girl. It's universally considered, other than an incredible achievement for such a young translator, good prose but a terrible translation, and despite extensive re-editing, it's still pretty flawed - entire sentences omitted, new sentences that paraphrase or explain, incorrect translations of names that completely distort the intended meaning, etc. (I've never read The Lord of the Rings actually so I can't confirm/deny). To add insult to injury, the most popular edition also had an introduction that viewed the story through an allegorical lens (against Tolkien's wishes), that was eventually excised and replaced with a translation Tolkien's own introduction

Last year, a new translator was hired, Ottavio Fatica (a veteran of the profession who has previously translated Kipling and Moby Dick), to redo the translation from scratch, and Vittoria Alliata has taken offense to what she's afraid could be a translation that "dresses up the Lord of the Rings in LGBT fashion, in deference to newfangledness"

*record scratch*

... what?

Let's take a step backwards. In Italy, there are two major literary associations related to Tolkien: the Società Tolkieniana Italiana ("Italian Tolkienian Society") and the Associazione Italiana di Studi Tolkieniani (Italian Association of Tolkienian Studies), that split off from the former when it filled with fascists. The two associations have been fighting a passive-aggressive war of words for over two decades now, and the Tolkien estate has wisely sided with neither. This is part of why a new translation of The Lord of the Rings should be politicized. The other reason is that Ottavio Fatica has already attracted controversy for making the homoeroticism of Moby Dick more explicit in his translation (I haven't read Moby Dick, either, so I have no idea how much of the controversy is founded, and how much it's about people who have statue avatars on Twitter), which earned him the enmity of the kind of people who haven't gotten over Vatican II and call Pope Francis the Whore of Babylon

Exciting, isn't it?

Probably should go in the Tolkien thread but

Like if you aren't reading Moby Dick for the hot gay whale sperm, you're missing the point entirely

# ? Jan 31, 2019 18:53

chernobyl kinsman: Mar 18, 2007; a friend of the friendly atom; Soiled Meat

cant stop thinking about gay italian moby dick

my bony fealty posted:

something about how evil is a corruption of good = there is no absolute evil is a pretty big Tolkien theme (heh)

ya actually this is true and im wrong

# ? Jan 31, 2019 18:56

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

chernobyl kinsman posted:

cant stop thinking about gay italian moby dick

Why would you want to stop

# ? Jan 31, 2019 18:58

Zoracle Zed: Jul 10, 2001

Mel Mudkiper posted:

I remember someone made a movie version of Billy Budd that was just unapologetically gay as gently caress

I�m sorry but Billy Budd is not a homosexual book!

https://youtu.be/K52I_Liwjr0

# ? Jan 31, 2019 19:38

XBenedict: May 23, 2006; YOUR LIPS SAY 0, BUT YOUR EYES SAY 1.

hackbunny posted:

Let's take a step backwards. In Italy, there are two major literary associations related to Tolkien: the Societ� Tolkieniana Italiana ("Italian Tolkienian Society") and the Associazione Italiana di Studi Tolkieniani (Italian Association of Tolkienian Studies), that split off from the former when it filled with fascists.

Peak Italiano.

# ? Jan 31, 2019 22:40

hackbunny: Jul 22, 2007; I haven't been on SA for years but the person who gave me my previous av as a joke felt guilty for doing so and decided to get me a non-shitty av

XBenedict posted:

Peak Italiano.

The Fascist party was reformed in 1946. Just with a different name, because reforming the Fascist party was specifically forbidden by the new Republican Constitution. That's peak Italian

# ? Feb 1, 2019 00:45

hackbunny: Jul 22, 2007; I haven't been on SA for years but the person who gave me my previous av as a joke felt guilty for doing so and decided to get me a non-shitty av

Posting this here because even if only tangentially related, we can all bond over its horribleness, and because if I post in Games again I might get banned:

quote:

�Imagine you�re behind enemy lines, wounded and low on ammo. Konrad�s men are patrolling nearby. If you�re not careful, they will find you. You try to sneak through the area but are spotted by a woman, a wounded refugee. She knows you�re one of the good guys and begins crying out for your help. Her voice rings out like a siren. Every soldier within earshot is now headed your direction. What do you do?�
The project leads stared at the Fox with blank expressions, as if he were a schoolteacher who had asked if someone would volunteer to complete a math equation on the chalkboard.
�Anyone?� asked the Fox.
Kurt�lead level designer, bird watcher, scarf aficionado�raised his hand. He was an interesting guy. What I liked about Kurt was his tell. I always knew when he disagreed with me, and it made my job much easier.
�You don�t have to raise your hand,� I said.
�Yes,� said the Fox. �You are all free to speak. The virgin is wailing, soldiers are coming, what do you do?�
�I leave the area,� said Kurt.
�Very smart. To your horror, the woman follows, continuing to scream. What to do you?�
Kurt shrugged. �I do not know. What am I allowed to do?�
�Anything,� said the Fox.
�Hmm, yes.� Kurt pursed his lips, crossed his arms, and nodded his head. �I see, I see.� That was the tell. Kurt knew where this conversation was going, and he did not approve.
I knew Kurt was done playing, so I jumped in. �I hit her with a melee attack.� There were two basic attacks in Spec Ops, ranged and melee. Ranged attacks were throwing a grenade or firing a weapon. A melee attack was a close-range attack in which you struck someone with the butt of your weapon. It dealt less damage than a ranged attack, and was conceivably nonlethal.
The Fox turned his attention to me. �You hit the virgin with your rifle. She screams even louder. What do you do?�
Kurt leaned forward and rested on his elbows. �There is nothing else you can do.� I�d only seen him like this once before. For Kurt, this was the equivalent of flipping the table.
The Fox looked at Kurt, then at me. �Yes, there is.� He was a little put off. If I had to guess, he probably thought we were ganging up on him.
�I can�t shoot her,� said Kurt.
�Why not? You have a gun.�
�Because she�s an innocent woman.�
�Not anymore,� said the Fox. �Right now, she�s a homing beacon, and both of your lives are in danger because she can�t take a hint. Your pistol only holds six bullets. If you think that�s enough to survive, then you can let the virgin wail and wait for Konrad�s men to arrive. You might survive, but she is a very loud and hysterical target and will definitely die in the crossfire. Or, you could shoot her and slink away to fight another day. No one will ever know. What do you do?�
The room was quiet as Yager pondered the question. Kurt spoke first.
�I see, I see,� said Kurt. �You want us to make a war-crime game.�
�Whoa! No, no, no! Who said anything about war crimes? I want you to make a game about soldiers trying to do their best in a bad situation.�
�What you just described is a war crime.�
�That was an example to illustrate what I meant by bad or worse. The player doesn�t have to shoot the woman. It�s only an option.�
�The option to commit a war crime.�
The Fox threw up his hands. �Do you hear this guy? I know you Germans have a history with this sort of thing, but come on. You�re the one who called it a war crime, not me.�
Timo, one of the company founders, leaned in. �I think what Kurt is saying is this might be too extreme for some players. It is worth asking ourselves if people want to play a game that makes them feel bad.�
The Fox raised his eyebrows in my direction. We�d been fielding this exact question back in California, so I had an answer locked and loaded. �I think they do. People use art as a way to safely explore emotions they might not want to feel in their normal, day-to-day lives. Think of the different movies, books, and songs we consume. They can make us feel sad, scared, angry. Music is especially bad about this. Think of how many sad songs you�ve listened to over the course of your life. I don�t think people are afraid to be emotionally challenged by their games. I think they�re waiting for it. Gamers are ready for a deeper, more emotional experience. They want to play games that matter.�

e: this is followed by a long section where the author talks about player agency and meaningful moral choices. The Wailing Virgin scenario "was thrown out almost immediately[ because i]t would have been a difficult choice for the player to make, but one that would have played off their annoyance". Not even a hint that he recognizes the "Wailing Virgin" as a non-choice because all the player can do (the affordance) is to hurt the woman, and not, say, bind and gag her. Note how the confrontational "gotcha" debate style of the manager ("the Fox") and the lead writer (the narrator) are designed to protect the status quo of a game where you play an arm holding a rifle, while telling themselves they're innovating

hackbunny fucked around with this message at 01:11 on Feb 1, 2019

# ? Feb 1, 2019 00:49

porfiria: Dec 10, 2008; by Modern Video Games

Wait is this supposed to be real dialogue. Is this Spec Ops The Line.

# ? Feb 1, 2019 04:13

Pacho: Jun 9, 2010

hackbunny posted:

Posting this here because even if only tangentially related, we can all bond over its horribleness, and because if I post in Games again I might get banned:

e: this is followed by a long section where the author talks about player agency and meaningful moral choices. The Wailing Virgin scenario "was thrown out almost immediately[ because i]t would have been a difficult choice for the player to make, but one that would have played off their annoyance". Not even a hint that he recognizes the "Wailing Virgin" as a non-choice because all the player can do (the affordance) is to hurt the woman, and not, say, bind and gag her. Note how the confrontational "gotcha" debate style of the manager ("the Fox") and the lead writer (the narrator) are designed to protect the status quo of a game where you play an arm holding a rifle, while telling themselves they're innovating

Is this from a book about videogames or something? Ready Player One?

# ? Feb 1, 2019 05:57

Sham bam bamina!: Nov 6, 2012; ƨtupid cat

Pacho posted:

Is this from a book about videogames or something? Ready Player One?

http://amazon.com/dp/1501129961/

# ? Feb 1, 2019 16:14

Sham bam bamina!: Nov 6, 2012; ƨtupid cat

# ? Feb 1, 2019 16:22

Bonaventure: Jun 23, 2005; by sebmojo

# ? Feb 1, 2019 16:41

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

everytime someone praises spec ops the line for its storytelling its like a magical fairy that appears and tells me to ignore this person forever

# ? Feb 1, 2019 16:52

Ccs: Feb 25, 2011

They specifically contrived that situation so your melee attack couldn�t knock her out and would just make you more of a target? What great storytelling :/

# ? Feb 1, 2019 17:36

my bony fealty: Oct 1, 2008

land of the blind etc

# ? Feb 1, 2019 19:24

hackbunny: Jul 22, 2007; I haven't been on SA for years but the person who gave me my previous av as a joke felt guilty for doing so and decided to get me a non-shitty av

Ccs posted:

They specifically contrived that situation so your melee attack couldn�t knock her out and would just make you more of a target? What great storytelling :/

Oh, no, no, they didn't want a moral choice based on annoyance, so the Wailing Virgin was written out. In the end they went with a different, even more contrived no-win scenario, like a game out of the Saw movies, where you have to comply with the demands of the bad guy to make slightly less bad things happen

e: but yeah it's an ironically perfect example of terrible writing in the context of videogames, not even functional to its purpose

Elsewhere in the book, the author (inadvertently, I believe) makes the point that videogame writing is good when it has interesting things to say about the medium of videogames (e.g. who's actually in control, the player or the developer), which if you think about what games get critical praise and why, makes perfect sense

hackbunny fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Feb 1, 2019

# ? Feb 1, 2019 19:45

TheGreatEvilKing: Mar 28, 2016

Ha ha! You used the white phosphorus to continue the game! That makes you a badman!

# ? Feb 1, 2019 22:34

chernobyl kinsman: Mar 18, 2007; a friend of the friendly atom; Soiled Meat

i didnt think video games could be effective vehicles of moral didacticism until i got 4 girlfriends in stardew valley & could no longer get any work done on my farm or in the mines bc i had to run around all day talking to my girlfriends to keep them happy & now i embrace the teachings of Holy Mother Church on monogamy

# ? Feb 2, 2019 00:27

chernobyl kinsman: Mar 18, 2007; a friend of the friendly atom; Soiled Meat

sorry thats not really relevant to the spec ops conversation ive just been playing a lot of stardew valley

# ? Feb 2, 2019 00:30

porfiria: Dec 10, 2008; by Modern Video Games

Forcing the player to do hosed up poo poo to progress the game is like having hosed up poo poo happen to characters in a book and then the author slides up beside you and whispers, "bro that's hosed you could have prevented all this if you'd just stopped reading."

# ? Feb 2, 2019 01:02

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

chernobyl kinsman posted:

sorry thats not really relevant to the spec ops conversation ive just been playing a lot of stardew valley

My favorite moment in stardew valley was the seduction of Penny, a poverty stricken young woman whose mother is an alcoholic, via throwing diamonds at her once a week.

The diamonds come from the diamond machine I financed via my massive winery operation.

Lot going on with that there.

# ? Feb 2, 2019 01:31

pseudanonymous: Aug 30, 2008; When you make the second entry and the debits and credits balance, and you blow them to hell.

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

My favorite moment in stardew valley was the seduction of Penny, a poverty stricken young woman whose mother is an alcoholic, via throwing diamonds at her once a week.

The diamonds come from the diamond machine I financed via my massive winery operation.

Lot going on with that there.

It's like poetry. It rhymes.

# ? Feb 2, 2019 01:35

chernobyl kinsman: Mar 18, 2007; a friend of the friendly atom; Soiled Meat

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

My favorite moment in stardew valley was the seduction of Penny, a poverty stricken young woman whose mother is an alcoholic, via throwing diamonds at her once a week.

The diamonds come from the diamond machine I financed via my massive winery operation.

Lot going on with that there.

look dude every diamond i gave penny in order to make her sleep with me i dragged up from the black depths of the mines myself

you know abigail's the daughter of the wizard, who cuckolded pierre, right

chernobyl kinsman fucked around with this message at 02:45 on Feb 2, 2019

# ? Feb 2, 2019 02:42

The Ninth Layer: Jun 20, 2007

porfiria posted:

Forcing the player to do hosed up poo poo to progress the game is like having hosed up poo poo happen to characters in a book and then the author slides up beside you and whispers, "bro that's hosed you could have prevented all this if you'd just stopped reading."

I've been reading the Robin Hobb books and this is no joke how I started feeling by the third Fitz trilogy. I could have left him with a happy ending but nope, I just had to find out how the story ended.

# ? Feb 2, 2019 02:49

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

porfiria posted:

Forcing the player to do hosed up poo poo to progress the game is like having hosed up poo poo happen to characters in a book and then the author slides up beside you and whispers, "bro that's hosed you could have prevented all this if you'd just stopped reading."

To be fair Michael Haneke did this in a movie and it owned

# ? Feb 2, 2019 03:13

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 10:21

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Also the only good video game writing is deadly premonition

# ? Feb 2, 2019 03:13

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