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i am a massive dumbshit and i try not to talk much about politics because i know how much more i must learn, but, I said "mostly american influence" because it was pretty widespread, well documented, and super recent. (guess not THAT recent given it's been like 50 years and in no way is it a get out of jail free card for our own sins.
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Jan 27, 2019 00:54
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ah, so i guess the derail is... glowing-fish posted:I have decided it is a better idea to talk about trains. ...over? Rerailed? how do i handle these train thoughts now
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Jan 27, 2019 00:56
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Is Bolivia's socialism still going strong?
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Jan 27, 2019 00:57
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punk rebel ecks posted:Is Bolivia's socialism still going strong? Evo is going the infinite reelection route now, which sucks. However the economy remains mostly fine as far as I know.
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Jan 27, 2019 01:40
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glowing-fish posted:Only sad thing now, is, we have to wait for 2026 for Line 7 to open! As a viñamarino, I am left eternally waiting for the Valparaiso-Santiago high speed train, or for any branches of the Valparaiso "Metro" Any year now!
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Jan 27, 2019 01:44
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qnqnx posted:As a viñamarino, I am left eternally waiting for the Valparaiso-Santiago high speed train, or for any branches of the Valparaiso "Metro" Line 3 had to be the Brown Line. I don't even know what type of colors you are going to have by the time we get to the coast. The Valpo commuter rail (because that is really what it is), is a lot of fun, because it feels like a train. I like riding it all the way to Limache, when I can.
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Jan 27, 2019 02:32
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bagual posted:Evo is going the infinite reelection route now, which sucks. To be fair, isn't that pretty logical seeing as what is happening to Correa in Ecuador?
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Jan 27, 2019 03:52
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punk rebel ecks posted:To be fair, isn't that pretty logical seeing as what is happening to Correa in Ecuador? Well yeah, Evo is cool and good in my book, but him being the sole leader capable of keeping power is a failure of the bolivian left and will lead to no good. If they nail him like Lula then what? I'm much more in favour of what the uruguayan Frente Amplio did, Mujica stepped away and Tabaré continued his policies quite nicely. Of course Uruguay is special case in how their right-wingers are not that criminally insane compared to other latam countries, but depending on a single person is bad long-term strategy.
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Jan 27, 2019 04:32
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bagual posted:Well yeah, Evo is cool and good in my book, but him being the sole leader capable of keeping power is a failure of the bolivian left and will lead to no good. If they nail him like Lula then what? I'm much more in favour of what the uruguayan Frente Amplio did, Mujica stepped away and Tabaré continued his policies quite nicely. Of course Uruguay is special case in how their right-wingers are not that criminally insane compared to other latam countries, but depending on a single person is bad long-term strategy. Actually transitioning from popular leaders to forming an actual movements, with several politicians that can reliably follow and adapt the original formula as the years pass, has always been a big stumbling block for the left in South America. And every time it's been tried, the other side screeches about indoctrination and such. In related news, Brazil is about take a big stride into home-schooling, with the laws being written by the looniest evangelical faction of Bolsie' government, including a preacher that said not to go to Holland because those degenerate atheists jerk off their babies.
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Jan 27, 2019 04:37
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glowing-fish posted:Line 3 had to be the Brown Line. None because you don't need colors for a single line. It feels like a train because it is indeed a train that fancies itself a metro, and had parts of it made underground. I am pretty sure freight trains still run through that rail during the night.
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Jan 27, 2019 04:53
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qnqnx posted:None because you don't need colors for a single line. Maybe they are like Caleuche style phantom trains? Rumbling down the tracks, in the middle of the night?
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Jan 27, 2019 05:12
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bagual posted:Well yeah, Evo is cool and good in my book, but him being the sole leader capable of keeping power is a failure of the bolivian left and will lead to no good. If they nail him like Lula then what? I'm much more in favour of what the uruguayan Frente Amplio did, Mujica stepped away and Tabaré continued his policies quite nicely. Of course Uruguay is special case in how their right-wingers are not that criminally insane compared to other latam countries, but depending on a single person is bad long-term strategy. Isn't Uruguay much more "Green Left" than "Red Left" though?
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Jan 27, 2019 05:49
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punk rebel ecks posted:Isn't Uruguay much more "Green Left" than "Red Left" though? Not really, Mujica himself was a guerrilla fighter, he got shot 6 times and spent 15 years in prison in total, having escaped twice. Green parties over here are basically centrist, the left does adhere to enviromentalist rhetoric but when in power will ocasionally overlook enviromental damages in the name of national development. Uruguay had some debates over mining and paper industries which pollute a lot, in Brazil during PT rule indigenous tribes were displaced for a major hydroelectric dam and a whole slew of other issues. Of course, the right-wing is pro murdering indigenous peoples and pro anything money, but the latin american left still has some issues with enviromentalism.
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Jan 27, 2019 06:28
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glowing-fish posted:Maybe they are like Caleuche style phantom trains? Rumbling down the tracks, in the middle of the night? Probably an urban myth already.
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Jan 27, 2019 06:49
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bagual posted:Not really, Mujica himself was a guerrilla fighter, he got shot 6 times and spent 15 years in prison in total, having escaped twice. Green parties over here are basically centrist, the left does adhere to enviromentalist rhetoric but when in power will ocasionally overlook enviromental damages in the name of national development. Uruguay had some debates over mining and paper industries which pollute a lot, in Brazil during PT rule indigenous tribes were displaced for a major hydroelectric dam and a whole slew of other issues. Of course, the right-wing is pro murdering indigenous peoples and pro anything money, but the latin american left still has some issues with enviromentalism. I was under the impression that Mujica was much more social democratic despite his guerrilla fighter routes ala Lula.
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Jan 27, 2019 07:16
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punk rebel ecks posted:I was under the impression that Mujica was much more social democratic despite his guerrilla fighter routes ala Lula. He is, most social democrats in latin america either fought directly against the dictatorships or got arrested and generally oppressed, Dilma for example was a guerrilla fighter too. The social democratic "change from within the system" thing didn't really work when the system was out to kill them so they fought, but when democracy came back the democratic state was seen as an assurance that the bad days were over and most left wing organizations gave up arms in favor of forming peaceful political parties and movements.
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Jan 27, 2019 07:37
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bagual posted:He is, most social democrats in latin america either fought directly against the dictatorships or got arrested and generally oppressed, Dilma for example was a guerrilla fighter too. The social democratic "change from within the system" thing didn't really work when the system was out to kill them so they fought, but when democracy came back the democratic state was seen as an assurance that the bad days were over and most left wing organizations gave up arms in favor of forming peaceful political parties and movements. I see. I guess my point was that Uruguay seems to be following a social democratic path, while Bolivia seems to be following a "Venezuela but done right" path.
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Jan 27, 2019 07:58
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punk rebel ecks posted:I see. Yeah Bolivia and Venezuela had new left-leaning constitutions drawn while most other countries had democratic constitutions drawn along more liberal lines. In Bolivia's case the dictatorship transitioned willingly, and after a string of ineffective government Evo won, in 2002. In 2009 the new constitution is drawn and ratified by referendum creating the Plurinational State of Bolivia, which remais to this day, and is also the excuse Morales is using, that his previous two mandates don't count because it was a different state, but was also a pretty big advancement for bolivians of indigenous descent, who were discriminated against by the colonizer-minded state, formed mostly of white urban elites. Venezuela on the other hand never had a dictatorship, then came Chavez starting the bolivarian revolution in 1999 and more importantly the 2002 coup happened and well you probably know the rest by now. Venezuela is another example of relying on one person backfiring, what is chavismo without Chavez? You can't try to be Fidel Castro without freakish longevity powers, aka being a doctor. Anyway, here's the trailer for the mujica movie, you should watch it if you wanna know how things were around here during Operation Condor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y97o1phiyRY bagual fucked around with this message at 09:10 on Jan 27, 2019 |
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Jan 27, 2019 08:50
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bagual posted:Venezuela on the other hand never had a dictatorship, then came Chavez starting the bolivarian revolution in 1999 and more importantly the 2002 coup happened and well you probably know the rest by now. Venezuela is another example of relying on one person backfiring, what is chavismo without Chavez? You can't try to be Fidel Castro without freakish longevity powers, aka being a doctor. Venezuela was nothing but dictatorships until the Pacto of Punto Fijo. As in, it literally had only one civilian president, Dr Jose Maria Vargas, who lasted from 1835 to 1836. The current military dictatorship is really just a continuation of the poo poo from the past.
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Jan 27, 2019 12:20
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fnox posted:Venezuela was nothing but dictatorships until the Pacto of Punto Fijo. As in, it literally had only one civilian president, Dr Jose Maria Vargas, who lasted from 1835 to 1836. The current military dictatorship is really just a continuation of the poo poo from the past. Wow I'm really dumb, this post made me look it up and yeah, I don't know where I heard that Venezuela was historically democratic.
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Jan 27, 2019 22:47
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God this thread's like coming up for air. Thank you all so much for posting actual information.
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Jan 27, 2019 23:17
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bagual posted:Wow I'm really dumb, this post made me look it up and yeah, I don't know where I heard that Venezuela was historically democratic. This might be massively ignorant, but are there actually any South American, let alone Latin American countries that didn't go through a dictatorship at some point? I figure most of the dictators were "Presidents" and technically "elected", but still.
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Jan 28, 2019 00:15
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100YrsofAttitude posted:This might be massively ignorant, but are there actually any South American, let alone Latin American countries that didn't go through a dictatorship at some point? I figure most of the dictators were "Presidents" and technically "elected", but still.
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Jan 28, 2019 02:40
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100YrsofAttitude posted:This might be massively ignorant, but are there actually any South American, let alone Latin American countries that didn't go through a dictatorship at some point? I figure most of the dictators were "Presidents" and technically "elected", but still. A better way to see the situation is that while South America, and indeed all of the Americas, was getting its first taste of democracy at the same time as Europe during the 19th century, outside interference in the 20th century derailed many of those nation's abilities to control their own political destiny, whereas Europe went through its own violent and organic political growth that destroyed the authoritarian framework of many old-world states. Instead, the Americas saw those frameworks reinforced by 19th/20th century economic imperialism and strong-arming. A common trope that often works its way around is that "a country exists in the Americas, therefore it must be a republic!" You see this a lot with romanticized American views of the 18th and 19th centuries, conveniently ignoring the countries own greatly limited democratic systems until 1963. Of course, you could make the argument that the nations born from Spain's colonies would have done much better had they not been run by caudillos whose sole purpose was to facilitate resource extraction back to Hispania, but the constant interference of outside powers cannot be overlooked.
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Jan 28, 2019 02:55
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i think its hilarious that after getting rid of colonists and all that horseshit my country decides to ask for 1 million pounds to the baring bros and put us back in debt and in control of an outside force. Just Really Funny.
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Jan 28, 2019 03:16
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PBJ posted:A common trope that often works its way around is that "a country exists in the Americas, therefore it must be a republic!" You see this a lot with romanticized American views of the 18th and 19th centuries, conveniently ignoring the countries own greatly limited democratic systems until 1963. People easily forget the fact that "republic" just means a country without a monarchy, and that not-at-all-democratic states like North Korea and Mobutu's Zaire and the USSR were/are legitimate republics.
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Jan 28, 2019 03:44
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:People easily forget the fact that "republic" just means a country without a monarchy, and that not-at-all-democratic states like North Korea and Mobutu's Zaire and the USSR were/are legitimate republics. This I didn't know. As for the above, I didn't mean to imply that this was solely a Latin American problem. I mentioned them only as it's the topic of conversation and because we'd been discussing the possibility of a Venezuelan exception. What I definitely discounted is just how interconnected and in ways responsible outside forces could be. Thanks.
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Jan 28, 2019 07:47
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https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mexico-fuel-theft-idUSKCN1PO0ET
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Jan 30, 2019 08:46
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bagual posted:Wow I'm really dumb, this post made me look it up and yeah, I don't know where I heard that Venezuela was historically democratic. I think it’s fair enough at least in terms of post WWII “historically.” After 1958, Venezuela did not have a dictatorship. The only other Latin American country that didn’t is Costa Rica. All the others had coups and dictatorships at some point (sometimes multiple points) during that period. It’s not like Venezuela never had a dictatorship but compared to the region as a whole it was more democratic after WWII.
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Jan 30, 2019 17:57
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Excuse me, but Mexico was part of Latin America last time I checked.
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Jan 30, 2019 18:42
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Badger of Basra posted:I think it’s fair enough at least in terms of post WWII “historically.” After 1958, Venezuela did not have a dictatorship. The only other Latin American country that didn’t is Costa Rica. All the others had coups and dictatorships at some point (sometimes multiple points) during that period. Later I figured out where I got confused, it was no Operation Condor dictatorships, I guess while most countries here were turning from democracies into dictatorships Venezuela turned it's dictatorship into a democracy.
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Jan 30, 2019 18:46
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Conspiratiorist posted:Excuse me, but Mexico was part of Latin America last time I checked. I'm guessing the 70 years under PRI's rule could also be considered a dictatorship.
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Jan 30, 2019 19:13
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Conspiratiorist posted:Excuse me, but Mexico was part of Latin America last time I checked. Technically, Central America
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Jan 30, 2019 22:36
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Uh, Latin America is not a continent. Just a group of countries with predominantly Romance-speaking population. This includes countries in both Central/North and South America.
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Jan 30, 2019 22:42
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Ah, I'd only ever heard it used to describe South America specifically.
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Jan 30, 2019 22:51
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And Mexico is part of North America.
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Jan 30, 2019 22:53
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Badger of Basra posted:I think it’s fair enough at least in terms of post WWII “historically.” After 1958, Venezuela did not have a dictatorship. The only other Latin American country that didn’t is Costa Rica. All the others had coups and dictatorships at some point (sometimes multiple points) during that period. It didn't have a military dictatorship after 1958, but it obviously did experience periods of significant instability especially during the 1980s and 1990s. One boon for Venezuela during the 1970s to the mid-1980s was high oil prices in was able to fuel consistent growth which largely stabilized in the situation. (The same could be said for Chavez from 2000 to 2012.) Also, Mexico is both a part of North America and Latin America
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Jan 31, 2019 02:16
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El Presidente, ¿qué diablos estás fumando?
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Jan 31, 2019 21:40
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Jan 31, 2019 21:49
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heck of a headline
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Jan 31, 2019 21:57
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