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bamhand posted:At least you know they weren't just lying to you when they said that's all they could afford. Probably. That's one way to look at it, but I don't think $1,000 or $10,000 for a salaried worker is more than a drop in the bucket for a corp losing millions a year. They need employees that actually do work and they'll go bankrupt faster if they don't get good people at fair salaries so I don't feel sorry for them at all. Maybe the manager really did have to go to the VP hat in hand, begging for an extra few grand for his new employee though, lol.
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Jan 31, 2019 23:30
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Double post, sorry
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Jan 31, 2019 23:31
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Lmbo if the company is so strapped for cash that they were haggling over 8k I wouldn’t want to work for them.
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Jan 31, 2019 23:32
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Truth, it was not a good environment and I'm glad it is in the past. Get this -- they exploited their exempt, salaried workers and made them work tons of on-call hours for no additional compensation!
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Jan 31, 2019 23:37
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When a company is struggling they can't really afford to fire decent workers - this is something you can use to your advantage as well. Assuming your skills are transferable enough to cover the risk, you can often just refuse things like that. Or at least that's what I told my fellow junior engineers when I convinced them to "pocket veto" coming in on weekends for no reason. Somehow frantic emails from a VP turned into nothing, funny that.
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Feb 1, 2019 03:39
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I've been working with a recruiter who seems to have betrayed me -- she named a salary requirement to the potential employer without my say-so or input. Now, that number would actually be fine if I got it, but it sticks a dagger in my negotiating space. The manager I spoke to mentioned the number and I emphasized that I did not give her that number, and in fact would have named a higher number (did not specify a figure). Manager went on to say "Well, that'd be tough with your level of experience. We've had people with 25 years experience ask for [betrayal number - $5k]." I responded that I'm always up for a little horse trading and left it at that. So, the crucial part of my sitch -- I still haven't named a number for myself, and an offer is all but imminent 'cause they seemed to like me. They asked me to fill out their online application more or less as a formality. Salary requirement will be a part of that. Do I name a sky-high figure since my position has already been compromised, or put in a "nonsense" number like 0 and see what they do?
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Feb 1, 2019 15:46
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Why don't you just name a high number that you would definitely accept that's above what you got hosed on but at least within a realm of reasonableness? Say that the recruiter told them $90K. Asking for $120K is probably reasonable as a negotiating starting point. Asking for $180K is probably not.
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Feb 1, 2019 15:50
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Not a Children posted:I've been working with a recruiter Whoops! There's where you messed up. (KYOON is correct, do what he said)
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Feb 1, 2019 17:11
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Why don't you just name a high number that you would definitely accept that's above what you got hosed on but at least within a realm of reasonableness? Eh.... Asking for $120k when the recruiter said $90k is great if the market says $105k. Much less so if the market says $85k. Know your market.
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Feb 5, 2019 04:01
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Dik Hz posted:Eh.... Asking for $120k when the recruiter said $90k is great if the market says $105k. Much less so if the market says $85k. Know your market. while this is true i am assuming that the recruiter has lowballed the gently caress out of the guy, because, you know, they're a recruiter
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Feb 5, 2019 15:34
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Dik Hz posted:Eh.... Asking for $120k when the recruiter said $90k is great if the market says $105k. Much less so if the market says $85k. Know your market.
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Feb 5, 2019 20:16
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I'll go further and say that, given that so much of your future pay is determined by those little 10-minute conversations after interviews, it's insane that people go their whole lives without ever practicing that sort of thing. Unless you work in an industry with very few employers, there's little harm in going to an interview for a job you know you won't take as practice. Everyone interested in being paid more should, at least once, put themselves in a position where they ask for much more money than they feel they are worth. Being comfortable in that space can only be fruitful going forward and sometimes you really are worth <crazy number> if only you had the balls to ask. Do practice interviews, for real companies, who really want to hire you, and can't afford you. It will make it easier for when you gotta do it for real. Like, a football guy gets paid based on how he plays football, so he practices football every week. Office workers are paid to have shrewd 15-minute conversations after job interviews, and they never practice. It's way harder to learn and stay in shape if you only ever practice on game day. Obviously I work in an industry where this is easy and employers are a dime a dozen. I know not everyone is so fortunate. But surely there are plenty of computer touchers here, and anyone in that domain should have access to plenty of interviews for jobs they wouldn't take.
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Feb 5, 2019 20:24
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In a couple months I will be transitioning to found a startup as I have enough seed money cobbled together to have about a year of runway. My present corp is not aware of this plan and will likely react emotionally when they find out. I’m a company officer and while I have no illusions about being indispensable, my leaving, along with the team I hired likely following me out the door, will hurt significantly. I am going to leave on the table about half of my options that haven’t vested, which I do not necessarily care about as I am not sure they will be worth anything based on how the company is managed. What is the optimum strategy for maximizing dollars on the way out? Is it to offer to stay on until a replacement is found for An Amount Of Dollars with the caveat that I’ll be working from home (ie working on more fundraising and new product)? Is it to give the usual 2 weeks then offer to consult at 4x my hourly, minimum 8 hours per instance, 40 hours paid up front? Is it to work on startup full time while drawing a paycheck and just waiting until someone figures out I’m not doing anything useful and just skating and get terminated? What is typically done in these situations? Note that I’m concerned but not truly worried about this affecting startup fundraising or burning any relationships; the ones I really care about are already either gone, are wondering why I haven’t left, or will be following me to next thing. There is one large institutional investor who I think I can probably mollify by thanking profusely and explaining the opportunity and how I had to take it, the usual bullshit.
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Feb 5, 2019 23:27
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:I'll go further and say that, given that so much of your future pay is determined by those little 10-minute conversations after interviews, it's insane that people go their whole lives without ever practicing that sort of thing. Unless you work in an industry with very few employers, there's little harm in going to an interview for a job you know you won't take as practice. Everyone interested in being paid more should, at least once, put themselves in a position where they ask for much more money than they feel they are worth. Being comfortable in that space can only be fruitful going forward and sometimes you really are worth <crazy number> if only you had the balls to ask. Do practice interviews, for real companies, who really want to hire you, and can't afford you. It will make it easier for when you gotta do it for real. I think this is a really interesting statement because it's completely wrong, and it's wrong in the such a way that it demonstrates the point you're trying to make. Yes, there's some correlation between salary and performance, but just like in every other field, the best players don't make the most money. The guys who make the most money are the guys who play hardball and wait until they get every penny they're worth. Get better at your job because that does impact your earning potential. But it's not the whole of it. In some cases it's not any it. There are lots of lovely sports players with crazy contracts where you wonder what the hell was going on. It's almost certainly because they, or their agent, said "gently caress you pay me".
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Feb 6, 2019 00:08
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Jordan7hm posted:I think this is a really interesting statement because it's completely wrong, and it's wrong in the such a way that it demonstrates the point you're trying to make. Yes, there's some correlation between salary and performance, but just like in every other field, the best players don't make the most money. The guys who make the most money are the guys who play hardball and wait until they get every penny they're worth.
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Feb 6, 2019 02:08
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:while this is true i am assuming that the recruiter has lowballed the gently caress out of the guy, because, you know, they're a recruiter Nah, she actually named something close to my internal pie-in-the-sky, so while it was definitely aggravating, it didn't kneecap a potential negotiation. I just hate having a ceiling. At this point I'm just waiting on the imminent offer so negotiations can begin in earnest. Tim Thomas posted:In a couple months I will be transitioning to found a startup as I have enough seed money cobbled together to have about a year of runway. My present corp is not aware of this plan and will likely react emotionally when they find out. I’m a company officer and while I have no illusions about being indispensable, my leaving, along with the team I hired likely following me out the door, will hurt significantly. I am going to leave on the table about half of my options that haven’t vested, which I do not necessarily care about as I am not sure they will be worth anything based on how the company is managed. If you truly want to focus on your startup, go in with the mindset that you will be burning your bridges. Give 2 weeks as is the norm. If the opportunity presents itself, charge consulting rates to continue your work and consider it a windfall. As far as I'm aware it's impossible to do 2 full time jobs competently for any extended period of time, so don't bite off more than you can chew. Be polite and reasonably accommodating, but never forget that investors and their reps are vultures and will scorched earth you the moment you stop being useful. Extend to them the same cold calculated effort that their machinations operate by.
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Feb 6, 2019 17:54
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Don't work on your startup at the office unless getting sued sounds like a good time to you
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Feb 6, 2019 18:15
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If the alternative is working for yourself immediately, 2 weeks notice is downright charitable.
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Feb 6, 2019 20:00
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Eric the Mauve posted:Don't work on your startup at the office unless getting sued sounds like a good time to you
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Feb 6, 2019 20:50
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I’m onsite at a client install working NOT on my own thing presently which is easy enough to continue doing. 2 weeks and/or I walk out the door, and consulting rates, seems reasonable.
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Feb 6, 2019 20:56
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Dik Hz posted:Also, keep a lab notebook or whatever the equivalent in your industry is. Even if it's just you jotting down notes, they generally hold up well in court. I’m a computer toucher/industrial guy, I can just point to JIRA and GIT along with email traffic and the simple fact that I’m onsite managing a team, but this gets back to my usual policy of running anything not work related on a different system that I remote into.
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Feb 6, 2019 21:44
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Tim Thomas posted:I’m a computer toucher/industrial guy, I can just point to JIRA and GIT along with email traffic and the simple fact that I’m onsite managing a team, but this gets back to my usual policy of running anything not work related on a different system that I remote into.
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Feb 6, 2019 23:27
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Not a Children posted:Nah, she actually named something close to my internal pie-in-the-sky, so while it was definitely aggravating, it didn't kneecap a potential negotiation. I just hate having a ceiling. you were... going to negotiate up... from your internal pie-in-the-sky number?  i don't think she hamstrung you mate
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Feb 7, 2019 00:16
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:you were... going to negotiate up... from your internal pie-in-the-sky number? A company is never going to give you the best offer they're willing to give first, right? So if a company calls you up, after an interview, and offers you twice what you'd take the job for, what do you do? Your answer better be "negotiate up". Knowing when you've won is about recognizing when further rounds of negotiation will do more harm than good, not reaching some arbitrary self-esteem threshold above which you cannot bear to self-advocate. Jeffrey of YOSPOS fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Feb 7, 2019 |
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Feb 7, 2019 01:35
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Dik Hz posted:That's not my focus, so I'm a little unclear. Are you running JIRA and GIT at work, so you can point to everything else being yours? Or do you run JIRA/GIT on your personal projects? Sorry, lovely sentence. We use git and jira at work so my point is that I have a running log of being useful which would be used in court if required. THat I run jira and git on my remote system onto which I remote in when required is a second thing, and gets back to my rule of Always tunneling to a remote endpoint for anything not company related if I was t do such a thing.
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Feb 7, 2019 04:42
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Even if you’re remoting elsewhere doesn’t that still count as using company time and resources on your own thing?
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Feb 7, 2019 23:33
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To be clear: don’t do things on company time, but if you are going to dick around and browse and poo poo like I’m sure all of us do at some point, don’t do it on your machine blind.
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Feb 8, 2019 12:23
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Hot from linkedin: https://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/18/suzy-welch-the-advice-youve-been-given-about-negotiating-your-salary-is-wrong.html Some key quotes: quote:The prevailing wisdom says you should negotiate, but according to bestselling management author and CNBC contributor Suzy Welch, the prevailing wisdom is wrong. quote:"You want to walk in as a team player and be the person who believes that pay comes with performance," Welch says. ahahahaha what the gently caress
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Feb 8, 2019 18:26
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Suzy Welch's husband is Jack Welch. I'm not shocked that she isn't too concerned about money.
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Feb 8, 2019 18:58
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Hahaha within 15%. Holy gently caress.
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Feb 8, 2019 19:59
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something something goddamn uppity millenials not knowing their place and gratefully accepting the stale crumbs they're so beneficently offered
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Feb 8, 2019 20:09
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i'm actually totally in favor of being a team player and assuming that pay comes with performance it's just usually the mother fuckers holding the other end of the bag don't actually pay for performance
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Feb 8, 2019 20:18
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:i'm actually totally in favor of being a team player and assuming that pay comes with performance I face this issue at my company. I'm an engineering manager and report to a VP, and interact professionally and casually with most of the VP/leadership team. I frequently try to advocate for people that are performing above their title or existing pay grade. Especially in the software & systems engineering business where a couple of good years of experience can mean a 50-100% market value increase. I'm only still here because I've schmoozed and advocated for myself ferociously, far more than most people do. Over the years, we've had a number of excellent IC engineers depart the company because they came in at a junior level and the company didn't adequately respond to their performance and increased experience & market value. The response I've gotten every time? "Well we gave them an extraordinary 8% annual raise!" or "They got promoted from junior to mid-level, and got a 15% raise!". "Anything more would be ludicrous!!" Yeah, well, that doesn't mean poo poo when that percent increase is anchored on an out-of-date base salary. You are all morons for basing things on percent values instead of nominal dollars. Every single one of those departed people left after 2-3 years and got a near-double increase in salary. Not only was it disruptive to their teams and projects, but then the company had to spend time and resources looking to hire a replacement. And when replacements are brought in at a mid-senior level they get paid approximately what the departed person should have gotten paid. So they aren't even saving any loving money in the long run. It's terrible shortsighted thinking with numerous quantitative and qualitative costs. And yet this is status quo at pretty much every company. Company loyalty is dead because companies killed it. Go get that new job to get that big raise you deserve. Negotiate firmly up front, because it's likely the best and only chance you'll have to set the anchor for all your future raises and promotions as high as you possibly can. Guinness fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Feb 8, 2019 |
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Feb 8, 2019 20:28
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My job made the mistake of heaping tons of praise on us and mentioning how much we saved the business per year and gave a pathetically small COL increase as a reward. Oops now 100% of the team is looking for new jobs.
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Feb 8, 2019 23:46
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My last place gave me exceptional bonuses and raises. They brought it up when I left and were angry about it (I also happened to give notice the day my bonus hit my bank account). But they hired me two levels below they should have and wouldn’t budge at hiring time. It was still worth it get my foot in the door with a big firm, but when another firm offered I jumped. Their mistake. Interestingly, one of the partners told me that when I left. Funnily though it implies that I agree with Suzy that sometimes you should take less than you’re “worth” to get opportunities.
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Feb 9, 2019 17:47
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Only if you are going in and anchoring at a price without any thought to the value of whatever is important to you. I know almost nobody that does this! Suzy’s analysis only holds water under the circumstance that the person has nothing else in their merit function than money, which means that Suzy thinks that applicants are idiots who can’t keep more than one variable at a time.
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Feb 9, 2019 18:54
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I had the opportunity to take a position in my company where I would be creating tutorial and marketing videos. The position came with a small raise, but they wouldn't budge when I asked for more. I had no formal videography training before (which they noted as a reason for not budging on salary). My BATNA was to go back to my old tech support role taking phone calls. If I walked away from the company altogether, I would not have any marketable skills that I could use elsewhere (outside of customer-facing service and support, which is what I was trying to move away from). I took the job. Over the past year, I've been able to improve my editing skills considerably, got another (more substantial) raise, and I have some nice post-production supervisor credits that I can add to my resume. I'm in a much better negotiating position now than I was at the beginning of 2018. Suzy's advice technically worked for me, but I feel like more emphasis should have been put on negotiations being about more than how much money you'll make right away; you have to balance your BATNA and the long-term benefits to your skills as well.
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Feb 9, 2019 19:34
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But you tried to ask for more, even though you weren't successful. Her advice was to not even try to negotiate, just take the job.
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Feb 9, 2019 20:00
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And when thanking the hiring manager for the opportunity don't forget to address them as 'ma'am' or 'sir' to show proper respect for your betters.
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Feb 9, 2019 20:03
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Don't forget to send a handwritten thank you card dipped in lavender and folded into an origami crane.
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Feb 9, 2019 20:17
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